stevh0

Im a huge benz fan at heart. There's nothing nicer than a nice clean benz roling down the road.

Ive been in the market recenlty, I found a 88 300 AMG (locally here in SA)

I wouldnt considder the w124 if it was not an AMG.

I went to go have a look at the car and there are a couple of things that are bugging me.


The Vin number on local AMG cars are only 14 digits compared to the 17 of the EU/US cars. So the Russian decoder does not give me any information.


I did see the books for the car and it was sold as an AMG back in 88.

The car has the m103 engine and the bodykit. It has an aftermarket steering as the old one got brittled up.

16inch monoblocks with 225 tyres.

It looks very very apealing, you dont understand. but there are a couple of things that bug me.

No AMG stickers in the Engine. I looked at a previous more convincing car too with monoblocks and amg exhaustips that looked really good, but it was claimed a stage 3. Engine wise they looked identical. They just wanted 2ce the amount of money for it.

Now from what I understand, locally the 3.2 was fitted to all 300/190E Amg's in South Africa from 87. But as we all know, there are very little tell signs from outside the engine bay. The 3.2 has an adidional air intake?


Driving the white more expensive car, it felt lazy, but the exhaust tone was amazing, kinda BMW E46 m3 like. But the suspension was soft. The Blue car was quiete and as the owner did not boot it, I could not heard the car, It did sound Tinny though... but nothing like the previous car.

What bugs me about the blue car.

Seats have been recovered. No AMG steering wheel. Suspention seems stiff but its standing high at the back. 240kph speedo's (I think just the engines were changed and interiors left intact)

Some pictures.
















Then I got this off the local MB site.



To me it seems that the car is a regular 300E with just the kit put on.
look at the poor mouting of the rear bootspoiler.


and if you look carefully, the bumper color is different to the body.



The white car on the other hand had the whole package.








I only see value in buying the blue car if it is indeed a real 88 OEM AMG

ps2cho

Doesn't look AMG to me. Looks like its a mish-mosh of parts stuck together. The black leather seats with the gray interior looks awkward. You already pointed out the spoiler and badly matched bodykit. The headlights are not Bosch Euros -- they are DEPO aftermarket. The chrome arch addons are ugly.

Pass.

Wolfe190

That white one is pretty damn sexy! Kinda reminds me of....

ps2cho

Upon second look, I don't know if its just me or the angle(s)...but the rear bumper looks warped or badly designed. I see it on the left hand side mid way across.

stevh0

Right under the CA on the plate it warps upward right??



I see that too ... now...

190E 16V

I really suggest you ask 2phast about the VIN#

A true AMG exhaust had the tailpipes curve down under the rear skirt like the white car, so there was no cutout for the exhaust as in the blue car.

Also, those chrome wheel arch moldings, although common, often are used to hide rusty wheelwell lips.

I don't know if the tail light reflector/filler strip across the back is AMG, but I bought some Hella tails cheaply, and that part was thrown in too.

Did you drive the car, yourself?

If you are not happy or thoroughly convinced, you should probably walk away. You might never be reall y satisfied with it.

stevh0

I drove the white car. According to the dealer a stage three tuned m103.The white car sounded very good, but there was no real space to open her up, there was power there but not 560sec v8 power that im used to. I asked to drive the blue car, but the owner declined by telling me he just removed the car from the insurance. We drove about 3 miles and the onlything I can tell you is that the suspension is hard and the exhaust tone is quiet. We never exceeded 3500rpm, so i could not even compare the power to the white car. He did also mention that the exhaust was changed... but why loose the AMG tips (if it had) Same with the steering wheel... why throw it away just cos its looking old... why not have it refurbished.

I can post the vin's of both cars.

2PHAST

Neither are true AMG cars, just regular W124's with some AMG parts on them.

The M103 was 3.0l, only the AMG modified version was 3.2l, no way to tell by looking at it though. Lack of AMG decals is a good sign its not a AMG motor.

The dual inlet air filter housing is a AMG item, but since these early cars were "ala cart" you could either get it or not get it. Owners could also buy the air filter housing and install it on their non-modified car, so the presence or lack thereof, does not really say much.

stevh0

Strangely I saw the books from the dealer when the car was purchased and it was sold as a 300E AMG from the Mercedes benz dealer in Cape Town. The owner too, told me that it is indeed a 3.2l

It seems that AMG cars in South Africa, do not get the decals under the hood or on the speedo.

RBYCC

How can you tell they are "DEPO" aftermarket ???
It's a RHD vehicle that uses different lens optics..

RBYCC

Steve

I'll tell you what I stated on another forum..
If the blue car is priced right then buy it.
The original AMG kit is worth over USD $2500.00 alone as parts.

There are no experts on AMG cars as there existed so many variants.
Each licensee/franchise AMG shop built to customer spec.
Westmont even offered a gold emblem package that I've seen some cars with.

Rik (2phast) believes the only true AMG comes from Germany.
I believe that any true AMG comes from an AMG licensed shop...

NO different believing that the only real Big Mac is from a company owned store...A franchise store is just a poser...

AMG signed shops and stood behind the work product of these shops...
Yes some rear bumpers had exhaust notches and some didn't...

If the dealer has documentation from the original delivery that confirms AMG, then it's as real as it gets regardless of what many on these threads may state..

Go for it and enjoy it..

The chrome on the wheel arches and the rear reflector are period pieces and typically aren't installed to hide anything
You're in a climate that is not conducive to rust !!!

2PHAST

AMG of Japan is fine as well

Like posted many times, its "my opinion" that true AMG vehicles are built by AMG in Germany, not a licensed reseller. That said, never did I say that any BHMA or Westmont vehicles were not worth having, they are, but not to the tune that some of the owners "think" the vehicles are worth.

ps2cho

I feel silly missing where he was from...My bad.

I still think the bodykit looks like a poor match.

stevh0

Thanx, I apreciate the effort going into typing that post RBYCC.

Im going to call the dealer up to see if I can find more information on the vehicle.

The car apears and drives well. Ill have to drive it before I part with my cash though. If I need more power, I could always turbo it?

ksing44

I would buy either car just for the 16" AMG Aero I wheels. To me they are the perfect wheels for a W124. I would take the wheels and replace them with newer 17" AMGs that everyone else seems to like but I don't care about at all. Then I would send the car down the road. I absolutely love the old 16" AMG Aero I wheels!!! I need one extra for a spare to have 5 and really wouldn't mind having two complete sets with winter and summer tires.

RBYCC

Rik

I respect your opinion...

But only to look at the "Hammer" wagon owned by Dave Shimano and road tested by Car&Driver in 1990.
This was a Canadian delivery car, as many were, converted by Westmont.
All of Ruskins were BHMA or Westmont.
At one point with a strong economy they all traded hands in the mid to high five figure range.

What an owne thinks his vehicle is worth eventually equals what another will pay.
Until the transaction is consummated the value is what the owner places on it.

All collector car offered prices have fallen with few exceptions.
Asking prices are still firm in many cases for unique and desirable vehicles.

You keep on stating a "Hammer" is not worth what the owner thinks,,
I ask you to advise me of any pristine "Hammer" that has changed hands for below $50K in the last two years...
I think the answer will be "none"

I was offered a Gemballa C126 by Kyle Khatib last year for $65K.
One off bespoke monster.
I passed, it was sold to someone in Canada.
Earlier this year Talbir purchased it for his collection and imported to the U.K.
From what I understand from friends in the U.K. it exchanged at a strong price.

There is a distinct difference between one who collects and one who simply purchases a vehicle that may or not be a collectible and it is either a primary or a "Sunday" driver.

A collector typically has the capacity to purchase at will if a desirable vehicle comes along..
All vehicles are unique within themselves.
If the provenance can be determined it makes it all more valuable.

The OP is looking at an AMG RHD car that can be purchased on the cheap..
The body kit alone is worth almost the asking price.

Posters are concerned with headlights, notches in the rear skirt, missing second air intake...ad infinitum.

You know better then most that each and every AMG built be it from the original Burgstall location to Affalterbach to far off Japan are one off...
This applies to the time period preceeding AMG's acquistion by Mercedes.

Following your logic the 500E is not a true Mercedes as it was not a 100% product from a Mercedes production facility.

My G55K cannot be a Mercedes as it was built by Puch Steyer in Austria.

Factory options installed by a Mercedes dealer are not Mercedes because the factory didn't do the install.

The verification of what something is comes from the parts and components produced by the licensing source and installed by the licensee in a manner that has been approved by the licensor.

It's not the location or whether it's "Wilhelm" or "William" who does the install that "sanctions" it.
It's where the design. engineering, and components originate from !!!

Walla

There are limited numbers of AMG 124's in SA.

Recently a E320 Cabrio was up for sale with a AMG worked motor and before that there was a E34 Cabrio up for sale.

The blue one has a long list of issues.

Chrome arches hiding good old rust i guess.
Motor is stock, no exhaust header work, intake looks exactly like my mums old 300E.
Interior is miss matched, grey door caps black leather as you pointed out.
but by far the biggest issue is that i think it was in a smash. My mums 200E has a single fan in the front, her 300E and E320 had twin fans. Why does this car have one?


My God mum had a 1991 300E AMG, that thing scraped on the far, had the beautiful ducktail spoiler, very buckety seats, loud motor, you name it it had it. Also cost a fortune. Also the 3.2L 24 Valve motor only came into life around the late 89/90's. So the 88 model can't be 3.2L. AMG stroked the 2.6l to give us a E34 AMG, and later the 2.8 for the E36. This car does not match either.

Also the 300 24 Valve never came to SA.

Do you have more pics of the white car?

I presume you are in capetown speak to the guys at absoute cars if there is a gem of a Merc in the western Cape they know about it.

There is something to make you weak at the knees.
http://johannesburg.gumtree.co.za/c-...AdIdZ156039316

ZedStyle

the first amg i ever saw was a yellow south african w124 driving up through zimbabwe, maybe about 15 years ago... i remember it slowly passing us, and seeing the 'AMG ' indent on the ducktail. that started my love affair with these cars...

stevh0

Walla, I have some picture's but the car was parked at an awkward angle to ill post the pictures that I have.

That CE is amazingly beautiful. But R150k for that car is a bit high, dont you think?

Funny you mention the arch work. Ive been looking out for 124's with chrome arches and so far only saw one 260e. I would not be surprised if it had rust.

I had a look in the owners manual and this car was purchased as a 300E AMG from Mc Carthy Mercedes. Unless they sumhow tampered with it and did the kit themself and fill in the AMG afterwards. I did not look that carefully, but im pretty sure it could of been done. I tried calling the dealership, but they dont have records dating that far back.

Here are some more pictures of the white car.

Walla

None of them have the AMG camcovers. But the white one is the least slap dash.

Remember our cars were local builds and AMG stuff was added on at great expense, so any model can be a AMG, but you are after the AMG motors. And there is only one way to tell that, take the thing to a dyno and see what it makes. A AMG worked 3L should make 150-160kw at the fly wheel, so it should be more than 115 at the wheels.

Remember the 190E 2.3 AMG. It was the 8 Valve motor, a lot of people think it runs the Cozzer motor. These are the same. I had a real deal AMG motored 124. Sadly the owner after me popped the motor and did not have another 90k to rebuild a AMG motor.


Good luck in tracking one, recently found a E34 AMG but the owner does not want to sell at all.

the_widebody

hears my 2 cents on the subject of amg 103 engines, i own one and have had extensive knowledge of rebuilding them. i have done a lot of research in the history of my own car and along the way have discovered the tell tail signs.

amg DID stroke the 3.0l 103 engine to 3.2.
amg did stroke the 2.6l 103 engine to 3.2

it did both by using the 104 crank.

the 3.4 engine used the 350D crank out of i think the 140 chassis

if the car is originally from uk or germany (in uk convertions, engines were sent to germany for modification, Strattons "only" did body, interior and suspention) then the easiest check for "tell tail signs" of whether it is amg moddified are

stamping on the cylinder head forward of and below no1 plug

on 124 chassis there will be 124 stamped

on 201 chassis there will be 201 stamped

on either there will be other stampings a letter and a couple of numbers.


there were obviously internal modds and the two easyest to check are:

if it is from anywhere else ie usa or south afrika i aint sure if they used to crate up the engines, i think not for usa and probbably not SA so the way to authenticate would be to:

remove the oil filler, look at the rockers, amg will have screw adjusters. non amg will be hydralic. if you still aint convinced the other tell tail is to check the camshaft drive for the rotor arm, remove dizzy cap, remove rotor arm, undo center star bolt recessed deep in front of cam, in amg cars it is alloy and has a bigger circumference where it locates into the front of the cam, non amg are smaller and steel. you may not even need to remove it, just use a magnet to test it


i doubt anyone would go to the trouble of faking the cam, the std cams are about 300 gbp from merc, the amg's were 900 gbp and are no longer avalible, i doubt wether the remanufacturd/reprofiled cams have the larger bore for the rotor arm either.


the next check would need a strip of the engine (obviously you wont do this one on these two cars, but for information purposes) then you check the head gasket which is different in the amg, and the valve size is larger, and finally the head ports are MUCH bigger on the amg heads, this is where the majority of the power increase came from


the intake manifold will look identical, the air box should have the extra air intake.

no amg 103's had special rocker covers, only brabus did posh 103 rockercover

merc sold loads of cars as 300 amg's wich just had the body kit or some other trinket slapped on, if it was amg engine it would say 320 amg!

both those cars are imo either full fakes, or body kitted from new at best. enjoy.

Walla

Correct sir, but the M104 motor was only launched in 1990. So no 1988 car can be a 3.2L from the the showroom?

A lot of SA cars were just body kit cars. The AMG motor ones are farkoff expensive back then (more than a 560SEC thanks to SA import taxes).

RBYCC

The 3.2L M103-12V was an engine built by AMG and was used in the previous posters 320CE widebody.
The M104-24V were built by AMG as 3.4L and 3.6L variants

the_widebody

the fact of the 104 engine being launced in 1990 is a bit confusing, ( i wouldnt be surprised if in germany there ae some dating before that)

i have misled you slightly, in 1986 or 87, the 190e 3.2 amg was launched, using a long throw crank in the 2.6 block, as a special by amg. that is widly documented.

i should have said "they did both using a crank of the same dimentions as the 104" to be 100% acurate, but i was just showing how to identify these engines not be exact about where they came from.

so the 3.2 crank was developed in 1986/7

so to answere the question, yes a 1988 car could have a 12v 3.2l engine in it that is original.

merc only did the 104 in retaliation to bmw going 4 valve per cylinder, originaly as 30 24v then 3.2 24v.

i expect the wait was due to testing of the "new" crank

for proof of this i have a 1989 registerd 3.2 12v amg engined car, that is deffinatly 100% the real deal. it is the car in the poster of the widebody 124 coupe.

so my engine was made and driving a year before the 3.2 24v was avalible. the 190e 3.2 were driving around 3 years before the 3.2 24v was around.

go figure!

these were horrendiously expensive everywhere, in 1989 a 124 coupe was 30 odd grand, to have the mods done that mine had made the car 70 grand, a new s class at the time was i think, circa 50 grand. ( didnt buy mine new!)

mills9

Guys, Im a newbie to the benz world, got a 1991 300ce, just got it, can I tell from the vin # if its a 24 valve 104 or a 12 v 103?