cap'n jasper

I can't stand my E320 coupe's ride any more!
I'm a man on the edge!
My local MB dealer has Limo/Convertible front swaybars at a reasonable cost (approx $150US). My questions are:-
Will the bar be too stiff and if so what will happen - excessive tyre wear? worse handling?
Do I HAVE to change the rear bar as well and if so E500 or Sportline?
I'm also planning to change the front control arm (and rear subframe mount) bushes to Sportline parts and fit lowering springs at the same time.

soldsep

not sure how much different the limo sway bars are. But if they are thicker then you should get better handling and less body roll. You dont have to change the back. But your rear will be kinda loose during turns. But if you decide to change the back its a lot of work.

pkmaven

The difference between the Sportline bar diameter and the E500 bar is millimeters, but the steel is stiffer to handle the increased weight of the E500. The Sportline bar is designed to give the 3.2 six cylinder/weight car optimum handling. Many of us have improved our handling in stages. There is no doubt that the Sportline swaybars make a substantial improvement in handling. Many object to the harder ride produced by lowering springs and matching shorter shocks. They feel every crack in the road, every pebble, etc., but on the smooth highway there is a level of appreciation for the modification. It is possible to reduce the gap between tire and fender by changing the pads. 16" wheels are a part of the handling upgrade. The E320 model in the U.S. comes with 16" wheels. I would suggest a test drive of a Sportline optioned E320 at a MB dealer before rushing into overly stiff consequences. P.

cap'n jasper

Thanks for the advice pkmaven, but my last car was a W124 factory Sportline so I know how stiff it is. I've already got 17" wheels with 235/40 tyres.
I don't want the back to be 'kinda loose during turns' so I'm going to order the Limo front and E500 rear bars tomorrow.
I'll post some pics when they arrive and let you know what I think after I fit them. I know there are a few people considering it but I haven't found anyone who's actually done it yet.

ksing44

I can’t wait to hear about your car and what you think about the bars. Your car will be as flat as a pancake. Virtually everyone that knows about swaybars says to get the biggest bars you can, so Limo front and E500 rear is definitely the way to go, although after reading the thread below you may have some doubts. The aftermarket Eibach bars are almost the same, so I don’t think it will be overkill. Many people seem to change only the front bar because it is easy and the handling change is most noticeable in front, but I’m sure it is not wise to change only the front bar. This website was from a previous post by JeT, http://www.teamscr.com/sway.htm . After reading the information you will be an expert about understeer and oversteer as it relates to swaybars.

My only disappointment is that you are doing the springs and shocks at the same time, so you won’t really know what part of the improved handling is just from the bars. From a cost perspective, you are doing the right thing, but it would be nice to experiment with making only one change at a time.

I have the Eibach springs, Bilstein HD shocks, AMG 16" wheels with 205/55/16 Michelin MXV4+ tires, K-MAC eccentric rear bushings, and my car really does handle very, very, very well. I want the bars pretty bad, just to have it all, but my car really is quite good with just the springs, shocks, and +1 wheels. I should have gotten the Bilstein Sports, but I’m not sure my car would really be very different. In a year or two, when my wife forgets that I just had new shocks installed, I will get the Bilstein sports just so I know I have the perfect set-up. I am also going to switch to 215/55/16 tires to get a little more sidewall height so I can narrow the gap between the fender and tire. The tires will be even fatter, which I will like and it may actually give back some ride quality. I like it stiff, it feels so stable and precise, but I won't mind if it is just a bit more comfortable on the highway :p

Are you getting Eibach ProKit springs with Bilstein Sport shocks or the H&R springs?

Good luck with all of your mods. I’m sure it will be awesome!

Jim's500E

Just a thought...if your rear end feels sloppy, look at the rubber bushings and the links....they wear out after 8-10 yrs and may look fine but actually are worn. Replacing them tightens up things noticeably...and the parts are cheap.

I think Sportline bars are 26mm while 500E are 28mm...I may be wrong on the exacts but its not much bigger.

ksing44

I started conversations about the bars a couple of times before. Here is the link to one of the converstations.
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...light=swaybars

The bottom line is that you do not have to guess what the bar sizes are. You can just thank "gsxr" for an amazing, complete list of the bars for a W124 and the directions for installation. I didn’t provide these links because I was pretty sure cap’n jasper already read the posts. Just in case, however, here they are.

http://www.meimann.com/images/merced...ar_install.pdf

http://www.meimann.com/images/merced...4_swaybars.xls


Just use the search function if you want a lot more opinions.

Jim's500E

Right on....love those W124 Service CDs and EPCatalogs !

I can burn some copies if anyone wants a set of CDs; they're pretty darn helpful.

cap'n jasper

Right, update time!

I've ordered the limo front bar with sportline bushes, a standard sportline rear bar and sportline rear subframe mounts.
The springs I bought are made by Ventura in Holland. I'm using standard shock for the time being.

Why not the 500E rear? Well, two reasons. Firstly no-one seems SURE that it will fit and secondly the coupe standard rear bar is just 13mm diameter. This compares to 15mm for a standard saloon and 16.5mm for the sportline. So, by using a sportline rear I'm increasing the diameter by 3.5mm.

The front bar will arrive on Tuesday (Monday is a national holiday) but the rear bar is on order from Germany so for a little while I'll be using a huge front bar with a skinny rear - should be fun!

cap'n jasper

Here's the old front sway bar, standard & lowering springs..

abarton

Do the sportsline estates have the same size rear bar as the sportline saloons?

With the extra weight and /or ability to have two extra passengers in the load bay, I wondered did they fit larger diameter sway bars to the Sportline Estates than the Saloons.

As they fitted narrower ones to the shorter wheelbase and lighter rear end coupe's than the Saloon.

Anyone know?

Hendrich

Hi Guys: I noticed your posts about the sway bars. I upgraded the swaybars on my CE last year. Before I bought the E500 front swaybars, I amaturishly measured the swaybars off of my 420. Initially it seemed a little bigger than the 300's. But after some research, it appears the fronts are exactly the same. What Cap'n Jasper posted is correct - the rear on the CE was only 13mm.

I ended up getting the E500 up front and the sportline's in the rear. What a DIFFERENCE! Although the sportline's bushing are suppose to be a harder mix of rubber/plastic, I recently swith the rears to polyurethane. The original was a little too soft in combinatioin with the larger E500 front swaybars. The claim that polyurethane makes the bars feel like a size larger is true.

I'm curious how the limo bars are. The E500 bar, to me, seems like a perfect balance of comfort and control for the car. I wonder if the limo bars will ride too harsch?? Please let us know.

cap'n jasper

Hi Hendrich.
polyurethane!, no one told me about polyurethane!!
I want some, what's the part number?
How's your E500 bar? do you have any under/oversteer?
What model and year is your CE?
What other suspension mods have you done?
When I changed the rear springs I noticed that the rear swaybar link is a really flimsy plastic thing. I wonder if changing it to the metal one would also help?

ksing44

I am watching all of this rather closely because I am still thinking about getting bars for my 1995 E320 SE. I wanted the E500 front and rear or the "limo" front with the E500 rear. I am just going by gsxr’s amazing spreadsheet with all of the sizes listed for every W124 bar. The limo is the biggest and it is made to fit the 6 cylinder so it should be a good fit. Then again, The E500 bars are a matched set and they are supposed to fit the 6 cylinder too. I was hoping cap’n jasper would tell me all about the bars, but now he is getting the sportline rear bar.

About Sportline Bars
I just didn’t think it was worth it to get the sportline bars, because they aren’t enough bigger to warrant the expense of changing everything. I’m sure it makes a difference, but this is not like springs that dramatically affect ride quality. Most people seem to recommend getting the biggest bars you can find. If I am going to upgrade, then I am going to get the biggest I can find.

About metal rear links
I read that the metal rear links were no longer available and that Mercedes now only provides the plastic parts. I also read that it might be good to have a plastic link that snapped and then was repaired rather than to have a bent metal link supporting your bars. How important is that link? I think I would like to have the metal links if I upgrade to the E500 rear bar. Please let me know if you find the metal links.

About polyurethane bushings
My first choice was to replace all of the front and rear swaybar bushings with polyurethane, but I couldn’t find the parts. Replacing the bushings with the original bars would be the easiest most inexpensive upgrade for the bars, but I don’t think you can get them for our cars. You can make some, if you are that handy, but I don’t think you can just buy them ready to go for our cars. Again, please let me know if there are polyurethane bushing sets for our bars.

Back to Eibach bars?
Maybe it would be best to get the Eibach bars, if I can still get them since they were discontinued. They are big bars, a matched set for our cars, and they come with polyurethane bushings. I was just a bit concerned that bushings would be hard to find in the future, since the bars were discontinued. I have their springs, so maybe I should get their matched swaybars for an all Eibach set-up.

Hendrich

Hi Cap'n Jasper:

The polyurethane I got is an after market one. Mbz does not make OEM ones that I'm aware of. They do make a difference, but beware that they are reputed to be squeeky. Just keep them well lubed and they're fine.

I love the E500 front bars. At first there seem to be a tad of understeer. That's because there needs to be a balance (engineering wise) between the front and the back sway bars. That's why I'm curious about the limo bars. Too much front anti-sway and you'll likely get more under steer. On the other hand, if the bars in the rear are relatively larger, then you'll likely get over steer - not a good thing! I heard an unfounded rumor that the E500 rear bars were actually smaller because of the hydraulic leveling suspension. So to be on the safe side I opted for the rear sportline's. That's why I changed the bushings in the back. It was either that or buy another rear sway bar for the rear - the E500's. Since the rear on the CEs are so light (relative to the sedan's), I felt that the E500 bars, if they are bigger, might give me some over steer. Anyway, the polyurethane's balanced me out nicely - little to no understeer. MY CE is an '88 and it has the metal/aluminum link. Much better than the plastic. You might find one in a junk yard.

I have very little mods on my car - only those that I felt added performance. I read that the 124s have stiff suspensions. I never thought so because it's a mbz right, it suppose to be a smooth ride. Well based on those that have upgraded their rims to 17 or 18 inches, I've heard lots of complaints about the harsh ride (it's all good, it just depends what you want). Also after driving the 210s and 211, I now agree that the 124s have a relatively stiff suspension especially the V8s. That being said, I personally like a smooth comfortable ride, but I love good handling - lots of hilly curvey driving! Hence, I did not want to lower the car. But I did upgrade the brakes to Brembo and roled the front fender to fit the E500 8-hole rims all around. The combination gives me the best of all worlds. Comfort yet when pushed, the car handles!

To trump in on Ksing44's comment about the Eibach sway bars, I think those will give a super go cart performance and turnability. But the Mbz bars seem to all have taperred ends. I'm not an engineer, but logic tells me that may be purposely designed that way to give a progressive anti-sway effect. In other words smother ride on straight aways and small curves, but with the strenght of a larger bar for spirited curves. The Eibach appear to be uniform in thickness from tip to tip - hence proabably more likely a go cart like ride and performance. Again it's all good, it just depends on what you want.

Finally, just to helps those that asked about the difference between the E500 and Sportline's sway bars (beside the thickness), the E500 and E420 bars project out like a square A-frame at the center of the bar to accomodate the large V8s. The Sportlines and the 300's shoot straight across with less bends. That's because the in-line six dont stick out far towards the front end of the car.

Hope that helps...

KOOLY2

I was wondering about that, the suspension on my car seems a bit stiff for a car angled towards its market. On roads it will pick up a lot of the feel and even jump around a little on rough roads. It is just a shy softer than the CL.

Jim's500E

M119 motors in the W124 chassis seem to wear out their suspensions and bushings at 100K ...probably because of their weight (close to 2 tons for 500E)

What may seem stiff at low speeds is heaven at high speeds!

cap'n jasper

Thanks Hendrich & ksing for your input.
Well the limo bar arrived (a day late, grr). It's certainly a beastie! I've attached a couple of pics for your info. I think the front is probably a little too low now, I guess I'll have to look at getting new spring pads - more hassle.
I haven't had the alignment done yet but just driving it out of the garage was a joy - no more wibbley-wobbley E320!
I'll let you know what I think after I've had it aligned and put the rear bar in..
enjoy.....

ksing44

You go cap’n. That is one beefy looking bar. Hey can you tell if the new sportline bushings are any different than the old bushings? Are they a different harder material or do they have a Teflon inner sleeve? Was there any problem fitting the bushings. Based on the famous gsxr spreadsheet, the bigger “limo” bar called for different part numbers for 2 of the 3 different bushings. It is only 1mm bigger, so I suspect it wouldn’t really matter.

BTW, since you are doing the rear bar next, it looks like you can still get the metal rear links for the rear bar. Go to this thread for the part numbers.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...threadid=38559

Please keep telling me everything about your upgrade. I am dying to try the bars next. Did you drive your car with just the springs before adding the bar? I would love to hear how much more improvement there was from just adding the bars.

AMGDave

One quick side note. The W124 Eibach sway bars are going out of production. If you want a set, buy them fast before they disappear ($400/kit or more). They are 28.0mm front and 17.0mm rear. The only big difference, AFAICT, is that the front bar is 28mm end-to-end. All the factory MB bars taper to 22mm at the ends, including the massive E60 AMG front bar (which costs ~$600, if you can still get one from Germany!!)



Regards,

cap'n jasper

The front end is now complete!
I thought the ride was a little bouncy with the standard shocks so I changed to Bilstein Sprints (which I think are the same as 'Sports' sold in America). The front tyres were rubbing a little so I also raised the front by changing the 1 bump pads for 4 bumps. This raised the front by 2cms and the rubbing's almost gone. The car is now 3cms lower than standard.
The garage was unable to adjust the front camber past -1o48' (left) and 1o42'(right). I wonder if this is a problem? The rears ended up -2o18'

Back to swaybars...
Ksing, there is a special bush for the inner of the limo bar and on the outsides I used the sportline bushes. They look identical to standard bushes but the rubber is supposed to be harder. They do have some sort of sleeve inside them but I'm not sure if it's Teflon. The front bar was a doddle to fit. Very simple DIY job.

The rear bar's still on order. I was expecting huge understeer with the limo front and 13mm rear but I was suprised. Sure, there is some understeer when really pushed but I'm not sure that it's any worse than standard (certainly not A-Class territory!)
I will let you know what happens when I fit the sportline rear bar.

I have no regrets about using the Limo bar up front. There is still some body roll but I think it's about right. I do wish, though, that I had used Sportline springs and shocks. The bilsteins are way too harsh. The standard Sportline setup in my previous car was only harsh at slow speeds, at higher speeds it was nice and smooth. The bilsteins are harsh at all speeds.

I can't understand the people that think the standard setup is too hard.

Anyway, here's a before and after. I'm much happier with the ride height now.

ksing44

Your car looks great! Thanks for letting me know how everything was going. From the picture, your car looks about the same as mine after the drop. It looks like there is still a gap between the tire and fender and if you didn’t know the car was sky high before, you might not even be able to tell it was dropped. Is that your impression too?

I love my car with the Eibachs and the Bilsteins. The faster you go the better it gets. I think there is a bit more drama because you can feel the road a bit more, but it feels awesome. Before, when I went very fast, I couldn’t really feel it as much. In a way it was a confident feeling with no drama, but I was also kind of floating. Now I can the feel the speed a bit more, but it feels very secure. I’m talking about speeds over 100mph around sweeping turns and such.

I was thinking you might get the "harsh" feeling with those crazy orange springs. Are you sure it isn't stiff from the springs and not the shocks?

AMGDave

About 90% of the time, a "harsh" ride is due to the springs - NOT the shocks. What "crazy orange springs" are these, btw?

ksing44

The picture of the orange springs is on an earlier page of this post. I just figured the wild paint on the springs indicated that they were a sportier version that is usually recommended for the track rather than a daily driver.

cap'n jasper

Not sure that the colour makes them crazy. lol.
The springs were made by a company called Ventura in Holland. H & R, Eibachs and so on are a little more difficult to get in the UK.
I did drive the car for a few weeks with the standard shocks and it didn't seem harsh. The Bilsteins definitely killed the ride quality.
The drop is now about right in my opinion (I'm not a drug dealer or pimp ). It just looked a little high before with the 17" wheels.

On a slightly different note....The front tyres rub very slightly when turning sharply at speed. I'm running 235x40's all round with 7.5x17 et35 (front) & 8x17 et35 (rear). I was thinking of going for 215x45x17's on the front and keeping the rears at 235x40.
Any thoughts? will it stop the rub?