senna881

Hi guys,

I have '94 E320 with a completely stock suspension and wheels at the moment but I have a few questions in relation to wheel/tire diameter and width in relation to the stock suspension (ride height namely) and the maximum tire width the car can take normally as well as with a Vogtland lowering spring that I am looking to upgrade too, the Vogtlands drop the car 1.5" so i need to know about tire rubbing as well as turning radius with the rims/tires I am looking at upgrading to. I have the stock 15" rims with 215/60/15's on there now and i am looking to upgrade to 255/45/17's if possible. and if anyone has any experience with this tire size and the vogtland springs or anything in relation to my situation please post, any advice would be greatly appreciated. I am also curious about the amount of body role of the vogtland springs vs stock? The car is my daily driver but I also track it regularly and am looking for a more stable and better handling car through the corners for not a lot of money as I am on a budget. -Thanks

neanderthal

There is a "running gear" sticky at the top. Much wisdom can be found therein.

ZedStyle

this is probably the wrong car to track regularly, but that's not what you're asking.
I bought vogtlands, and for some reason the front got dropped WAY lower than the rears. I'm talking SLAMMED, i was rubbing even on stock wheels. I ended up swapping out the front springs and now they're sitting in my garage.
I got mine way back when though, and they had some issues with their early W124 springs i think (another example is that they were shipping the same springs for 400E/E420 as 300E/E320 and there were some issues with too much sagging with the bigger engines).
Not sure if they resolved all that, but just something to keep in mind with the vogtlands. Intrax springs will drop you pretty low, but i think H&R's seem to do the best job overall from most people's experience.
I'll post up some pictures of my car when i had the vogtlands later tonight...

senna881

hey thanks zedstyle, your probably right it isnt the best car to track but its just for fun. I did notice the drop in the front already on stock spring however with mine having the 6 cylinder in it and being the lightest of the series i just figured they were sagging due to their age. I have heard some bad things about the H&R's for example one corner will sag vs the other corners so i am just looking to make the best choice as i am on a tight budget (hell if i had a bigger budget i would just buy my dads 500e from him lol) also how is the spring travel on the vogtlands vs stock? I really appreciate the advice!

ZedStyle

okay these are when i first got the springs on, they settled a tad bit more after this too:







being on a budget is rough, keep in mind that you are probably going to want to swap out the struts as well as the springs... especially if yours are old, they will end up blowing soon when you lower the car. bilstein sport struts are the way to go, but they are quite expensive so you may end up going with something else. just keep that expense in mind as you calculate how much you're going to spend on this project...!

senna881

dumb question...what is the difference between the bilstein sport struts and the regular/heavy duty...and also the bilstein struts available on adsitco.com for the w124???

RBYCC

I'm confused...it's your daily driver but you track it regularly, but yet it has a sagging stock suspension?

Don't know any tracks that would pass a tech inspection with sagging suspension !!!

If you track the car regularly you would be a bit more astute about setting up a 124 chassis.

You mention body roll but yet don't consider that the front and rear ASB's control roll, not the springs.

To answer your strut question...the Bilstein Sports and HD's are identical as far as valving with the Sports having an internal stop that lessens the stroke by one inch over the HD.

If you are not going to "serioisly" track the car then go with the longer travel HD...
It's more compliant for the street..
Street or track the trick is for the suspension to keep max contact patch and control slip angle of the tire.
Too stiff with short travel on an irregular surface and you'll skip when you've reached the travel limit of your suspension.
Even too large of an ASB will cause the outside wheel to lift under hard cornering as it tries to control inertia and momentum.

Decide whether you want to be boy racer fashionable or have a car that is a pleasure to drive and is the best compromise for street and occasional Auto-X use...

ZedStyle

yeah when it comes to the technical stuff you probably want to trust RBYCC, he knows his stuff. essentially either strut would fit, the HD are designed more for heavy duty/hauling, and the sport for tracking etc. from the website:

http://www.bilstein.de/uploads/tx_te...t_b6_b8_en.pdf

HD (B6):
Increased power reserves and service life, even when
pulling transporters and trailers or during frequent journeys with loads
Optimum adhesion and enhanced lane change stability in both day-to-day and extreme situations
Marked improvement in safety and performance without additional spring changes (standard springs can be used)

Sport (B8)
Shortened high-performance shock absorbers for virtually every lowering spring set and series production sport vehicles
Sports settings with high level of comfort
Marked improvement in safety and performance with additional spring changes (lowering)
Precision handling and optimised vehicle control


I went with the sports because from all i read they were designed for lower suspensions, but the HD's are usually a bit cheaper but seem to do just as good of a job. I don't know about the inner workings and design of these things, i bought based on the descriptions they had on their website... i was lowering my car, so bought the ones they said were for lower cars! i don't track and barely go over 80mph if ever, so i don't know if i really needed them but oh well.
You don't have to even go with bilsteins, there are other decent ones out there, these are just the best and will last the longest...

Saijin_Naib

I'll cast my vote for the Koni Yellows. They've been excellent so far and were not terribly expensive when I bought them.

Koni are also well regarded, though perhaps not quite as much as Bilstein.

senna881

Hey guys thanks i appreciate the advice but i should have been more specific about what i mean when i say "tracking the car" i do ferrari club track days for fun however i have just joined the MB club and intend on doing auto X events. It is my daily driver and my racer because i am young and it is my first car i bought so as you can now understand as a college student i don't have a lot of money therefore i am on a budget with this project but the parts you all are talking about are in my price range. My goals are to make the power that i have get to the road more efficiently and enhance appearance in the process, i do want a low "bad boy" look but something that can handle a level road surface as well. Here is what i am thinking to go with to achieve that tell me what you think?...Bilstein B8 sport struts, H&R lowering springs with a 1.3" drop all around and for rubber 225-45-17 in the front and 255-45-17 in the rear!

ZedStyle

there are some H&R sets on ebay right now with the springs and struts too for under $700, which is not too bad I think for the full thing.

For your tires, 255/45/17 would not be the right size for that width in the rears, you would need to do 255/40/17 to keep close to OEM overall diameter, probably on an 8.5 inch wide rim. They would fit on an 8" rim too, but a lot of tire places will turn you away and tell you they will not put a 255 tire on an 8" rim for safety reasons... do you know what rims you want to go with?

senna881

Yeah that is where i am looking is ebay 700 is totally affordable for the whole thing! About the rims...i have already purchased some off craigslist for cheap and they are OEM AMG rims so they are good, they came off like an '05 c280 or something like that (obviously not stock on that car) and were used as snows so they have 225-45-17 on them now and have a lot of room on them for more width. I need to get tires for them though as the ones they came with are worn badly and my dad gave me some half used 255-45-17 off his XJR so my original intention was to but them all the way around but after reading some posts on this site i have determined they wouldn't fit in the front as they are beyond the capacity for the turning radius and fender width...but i am assuming that i can stagger them without any problems?? I assume more rubber on the road in the rear will give more rear end stability, i do also have a set of 245-45-17 laying around i could use as well if needed. (my dad has a lot of cars so we have plenty of spare parts laying around lol)

ZedStyle

255-45-17 is definitely too big, even if the width is ok the circumference of the wheel will be bigger than the fronts.
245-45-17 will also be bigger around, but not as drastically.
where are you located? if you are really want to go the used tire route you can usually find decent ones on craigslist
what are your rim sizes (17x?, ET?)

RBYCC

First...the stock suspension more then handles the "power' that the stock engine produces.

Second struts/shocks, springs alone are not going to help especially in the tight confines of Auto-X without upgrading the front and rear ASB's.
Also you need to check and replace the rubber in the suspension system as that is what dictates consistently maintaining alignment.

Third it's not necessarily the size of the tire but getting the correct tire with the appropriate compound for your measured rim width.
Not all tires in the same size are created equal....

You don't need the stiffness of the B8....in fact as I posted many times the 993 Porsches use the B6.

Same valving, just about an inch shorter stroke with the B8.

Remember stiffening a suspension and having less travel not only gives a less then desirable "street' ride quality but magnifies driver error under speed...

Saijin ( Brett ) can offer you advice as he is involved in Auto-X and also on a tight budget...

Don't spend money that is not needed...
The majority of forum members have no real point of reference on how a showroom new 124 chassis handles.
Starting with a car that has 100K + miles leaves you with no baseline of potential performance.
I've owned my 1988 300CE since the day I took it off the showroom floor in May of 1988.
Tighten the car up to factory spec in the suspension and drivetrain before you do anything else.
See how good the "stock" factory spec" car really is then start first with a +1 tire/wheel package then move on to suspension mods.
One step at a time with a "healthy" car gives better results at lower cost then multiple steps at one time with a "sick" car....

senna881

Thanks @RBYCC i think i really need to rethink my strategy on this whole thing and take everything one step at a time versus jumping right into major modifications...i have to remember that Mercedes built a pretty damn perfect car in the first place so I probably shouldn't mess with it too much! lol

RBYCC

You can "mess with it" as that is what an enthusiast does !!!
I've more then messed with mine over 25 years of ownership...

Best always to get to factory spec and then see how you want to improve...

Not trying to disuade you, more trying to get you thinking so you not only get the most bang for your buck, but love the end results....

Ed A.

inranraaj

I have overhauled my front and rear suspension completely and its all in standard size. Initially my car tires are using 16" Brabus rim and later I have covert it to AMG rim and tyre size are 255/40/17 but the front size are 17" rim and tyre size I can't remember.
The problem is the car lose of comfort when I'm driving over a bump and seems like rear suspension is not absorbing the shock at all. I'm like driving a car that been lowered completely and the springs like not function. I don't know whether this problem comes from tyre rim size 17" or any parts in the suspension that been wrongly installed when overhauling the system. Please advice.

ZedStyle

It sounds like you changed out everything, including shocks, springs, etc. for new?
You would expect a slightly harsher ride in moving to 17's but not significantly. what you're feeling might be the difference between running on 20-year old saggy springs/shocks and brand new ones... your ride will definitely be firmer than it used to be!
it sounds like the rear is a LOT firmer though, it might help if you post what springs and shocks you had installed, for example if you went with bilstein HD vs the standard ones that would account for some of it

GSbeto

I been having a ruff time looking for the B6. All I see is B4 and B8 all over the vendors sites, so Im going with KONI yellows. Not cheap but good quality and you can adjust them on the fly.

WDB124066

Are they adjustable in the rear as well...?

inranraaj

As I know the rear suspension using all standard parts and I don't do any modification like changing into Bilstein spring and shock absorbers. All in a genuine parts. And yet I felt like its not absorbing any shock at all.

GSbeto

I know its an old post, but im glad someone like the KONIS on a Benz.

I used them on all my previous cars (98 accord coupe V6, BMW E46, BMW E90) and those cars handled like F1 machines. And the best part? You can adjust the rebound with a turn on the knob. You cant beat the price as well.

Thanks Saijin.

Lou.

E320-1995

Hey ZedStyle, I am on the route of H&R lowering springs and bilstein b8's for my car, are you still on vogtlands and bilstein's and how's it after a couple years?