CE750

I think it's accurate to say that even the most unreliable Mercedes Benz is still reliable transportation. After all when you take away the rankings info, and just look at the actual number of failures per 1000 vehicles, the MB isn't all that bad.


http://www.autobytel.com/content/re...ion/Reliability

http://www.intellichoice.com/report...Benz/model/E320

mick1

I don't know why some people would get so upset about the cars that other people drive or like. One time I told a co-worker that I like the Hummer H2 and she got all upset and started criticizing my taste in cars. She must have been one of those green people.

AJU_E350

I was checking out the review and it freaked me out a bit when they referred to the E-Class as (*up to) a SEVEN PASSENGER vehicle. I thought autobytel.com factored in the 2 dead bodies that fit in the trunk too.

I'm guessing now they meant station wagon???

JWS3

Seriously, what is the point of posing as an owner? Sounds childish and stupid. At best.

rjm

You said it well Jack. You like your "Mercedes" (glorified Chrysler) simply for it's snob appeal. If it was called a "Hutmobile", you wouldn't touch it. If you went out and drove a MB, a BMW, or a Lexus BLINDFOLDED, (if that were possible) I doubt that you would be able to identify what car you were in by "the driving experience" (except for the plusher, more comfortable seats in the BMW and the Lexus). Your "experience" is all about watching that Star on the hood and feeling better about yourself....it has nothing to do with the car itself. Buy a Chrysler....its got a Star on the hood too. :p

rjm

This is from Auto Insider 10-27-05:

Asian auto brands' reliability uneven

Chevy Monte Carlo, Mercury Mariner SUV rank among most dependable in Consumer Reports survey.

By Christine Tierney / The Detroit News

Just because a vehicle's pricey, sports a Japanese nameplate and looks great is no guarantee that it's a good deal: The influential Consumer Reports magazine predicts new buyers of Nissan's QX56 sport utility vehicles will run into eight times as many problems as owners of the most reliable large SUV.

Many Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. models are highly recommended for reliability, but other Asian brands earned uneven scores and only a couple of domestic vehicles were included in the magazine's list of 2006 models with the best expected reliability.

For the second year in a row, not a single European nameplate made the top cut, based on a survey of owners of more than 1 million vehicles built between 1998 and 2005.
Detroit's automakers are closing the gap with top Japanese automakers when it comes to quality and reliability in the early years of ownership, said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' auto test center.

"But as the cars age, the difference tends to grow so that the long-term durability is basically not as good" for the U.S. brands, he said at an Automotive Press Association luncheon. "By eight years, there are likely to be twice as many problems with the domestics."

Of the 31 2006 models recommended for best predicted reliability, 29 were Japanese -- and two-thirds of those were Toyota and Honda cars. The two domestic models included in the list were the Chevrolet Monte Carlo and the Mercury Mariner SUV.

A General Motors Corp. spokesman said the company wasn't satisfied with only one model in the top 31 but that internal as well as external measures show steady improvements in initial quality as well as long-term durability.

"We're improving very quickly," GM spokesman Tom Kowaleski said. He said GM's lineup was now "well placed in the mid-range to upper-mid-range across all segments where GM competes."

Of the 48 models forecast to be the least reliable, 22 are domestic nameplates, two are South Korean and four are Japanese -- all Nissan vehicles assembled at the automaker's new Canton, Miss., plant.

The 20 European models with the poorest predicted reliability include three flagships from Germany's premium carmakers: the BMW 7 Series, the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and the Audi A8.
Consumer Reports drew up its list of reliable 2006 models based on the vehicles' track record over the past three years. For new or refreshed models, such as the Chevrolet Cobalt, it based its conclusions on samplings from a shorter period.

Among the Japanese automakers, Nissan's results were spotty, with the Infiniti M35 and M45 sedans rated among the most reliable. But the Nissan Quest minivan, the Armada SUV, the Titan pickup and the Infiniti QX56 were ranked among the least reliable.

The QX56 is likely to have about eight times as many problems as the Toyota Land Cruiser, the most reliable SUV.

The lowest-rated Nissan models are all built at its Canton plant. "They were new vehicles, in new segments, in a new plant, in a new area. If you add up all those things, it's not rocket science that they had problems," Champion said.

On the other hand, the Nissan Frontier and Xterra were among the most-improved vehicles, based on Consumer Reports' own testing.

"You can't gauge reliability based only on a nameplate," Champion said. "Some automakers do have a better track record but individual models -- especially newer ones -- can have problems."

In 2004, Nissan dispatched some 200 engineers from Japan to the Canton plant to fix problems. A Nissan spokesman said that the company was disappointed with the Consumer Reports' projected reliability ratings for some 2006 models.

"It's not clear if the vehicles involved in this survey included changes that began in mid-2004 and are continuing," said spokesman Fred Standish.

He said seven Nissan vehicles topped their segments in the vehicle satisfaction awards issued last month by consulting firm Auto Pacific, and this year's vehicle dependability survey by J.D. Power and Associates showed that both Nissan and Infiniti nameplates improved from the year before.

All five of the top-rated domestic large SUVs were produced by GM: the Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban, the GMC Yukon and Yukon XL and the Cadillac Escalade. With the exception of those models, however, "large American SUVs have subpar reliability," Consumer Reports said.

The Chrysler Group's popular 300 sedan won mixed scores -- Consumer Reports recommends the model with the V6 engine, but rated the V8-powered 300 below average because of reported problems with the suspension and electrical systems. Ford's best-selling F-150 pickup also was rated below average.

Auto buyers seeking trouble-free cars should steer clear of brand-new models, Champion said.

"Should you buy a new car in the first year? We're saying no, not really," he said, citing a slide in the ratings of several new models, including the new Chrysler Town & Country minivan, compared with the last year of the outgoing model.

Nevada Jack

Go back into the hole you crawled out of TROLL...still crying that you bought the Lexus and gave up your W210? How long ago was that...seems you would be over the loss by now. LOL

Nevada Jack

More truth than fiction there.

Love the E350 color combination...:-)

CE750

It's a way to make them seem like "unbiased" critics of MB.. vs the classic troll who comes on and just starts trouble by bashing MB. Sad, but true.. There have been a few in my short time watching this board.. mostly on the AMG forums mind you..

rjm

From CANADIAN DRIVER SEPT, 2005:

September 19, 2005

The best-made cars: perception and reality
By Jeremy Cato
"Of all the world's automakers, Toyota most definitely has the best reputation for rock-solid quality. Japan's number one automaker and the world's second-largest continues to lead all others if all the various quality studies are put together."

"The Lexus LS430 is a perfect example of how a reputation for quality is built. This year among luxury cars, the LS430 ranks first in initial quality, first in long-term dependability (VDI), first in Consumer Reports for reliability and first in Strategic Vision's Total Quality Index. A grand slam."

"It all adds up to an excellent overall quality showing for Toyota by any measure."

rjm

Very intelligent response Jack...very enlightening, informative, and full of useful information contributing to the subject of this thread.

CE750

one truism to automobiles that I've observed is that generally the more complex, envelop pushing, and highly engineered a car is, the less reliable it is also going to be... this tends to be especially the case with high end exotics from Bentley, Ferrari, and others.. whereas the more simple, tried and tested the engineering is, the more reliable... i.e. Honda, Toyota, etc..

so it's not about whether the car is good, or not, it's about how much it's testing new ground.

MB pioneered, ABS, ESP, Crumplezones, Pre-tentioners, Diesel cars, central locking system, and many other firsts that don't come to mind, what has Toyota "pioneered"?

HELL ONA HARLEY

Hey rjm....although you hated your e (w210) and still do, you must have loved it at one time very early in your ownership and must have taken a pic or two..... and surley you have pic's of your pride and joy (your Lexus) now... So how bout it and post them here so we can drool.....I really want to see that MB lemon.....

rjm

aceman

Anyone subscribe to consumerreports.org???? If you look at the w211 ratings, starting at 2003, you'll see a ton of black dots (bad)...as you move to 2005, they go from black to no color to red (good). Clearly MB has made some huge improvements in quality after getting all the bad press. I think they are on the right track, they know better than anyone that the quality issue is huge.

Aceman

CE750

That's him alright, as I already saw pics of his cars, including his BMW at his house in Dallas.

He's not lying, I was thinking of another member when I said that..

rjm is just inflicted with some kind of a twisting notion of what makes for a nice car.. he's the kind of guy that will look at a person like me wearing a fine Swiss watch, which is hand made and ask.. "Why pay that much for that watch, when I can get Seiko that's more accurate and more reliable for $300?"

it's a mentality that isn't easily changeable.. utility over passion.. that sort of thing..

CE750

I saw that, and if you look at my post above with the links to autobytel, same is observable.. it's not as bad as rjm likes to make it sound..

rjm

I think we can ALL agree on that. CE750 has mentioned in the past that we should send our complaints to MBUSA, and I have responded that our complaints would never get past the bean-counters and accountants who are running the company. It is my belief the Mercedes-Benz SURELY monitors forums such as this to see what the public is compaining about. I would not be surprised at all, if Herr Dieter himself didn't browse around here periodically to test the pulse of the buying public...he has stated time and time again that his goal is to improve the product so he has to be interested in owner feedback as expressed on forums such as this one. I think it is healthy that these issues can be discussed here, hopefully without the name-calling and profanity that we have seen on some posts.

Nevada Jack

Thanks rjm...just trying to be helpful and inform the forum properly. LOL

Nevada Jack

Great post rjm...you can do 180's in a second. I hate it when people call MB owner's "snobs" and the like, don't you?

rjm

Actually, I wear a $22,000 solid-gold Rolex, along with a diamond-incrusted pinky-ring, and a large gold chain around my neck with "TEXAS" spelled out in rubies. People actually look at me and say, WOW!" I really feel good when they do that.

CE750

If you approach it constructively, I'm sure we'd all support it.. but if you "throw the baby out with the bath-water" and effectively call the cars junk.. it's not going to sell.

People here aren't dumb, and we know the cars have some flaws (as all cars do), but we also see that these cars (talking about the E) are very advanced pieces of automotive engineering..

I mean have you ever looked under one of these cars while it's up on a hoist? The suspension design is nothing less than amazing. The parts are made of non-corrosive alloys, and the exhaust shroud is covered with metal mesh, the entire underside is paneled for aerodynamics and sealing of the unibody from the elements, etc.. etc.. Then there is the hardware used for the door hinge, and lock, all significantly better than the cheep off the shelf hardware I've seen on 95% of all the other cars, including the Lexus..

these is what makes an MB and MB, but MB needs to keep it up, and not cost cut it down... that's for GM to do, as they can't keep selling $60K SUV's forever.. but MB can sell $60K E's for ever, if they keep the quality/engineering where it needs to be.

CE750

you see though, once again you've missed the point.. A fine Swiss watch IS NOT a diamond crusted Rolex... it's a Patek Philippe, or Audemars Piguet (brands that 95% of people would never know by sight).. that was my point.. but you kind of proved your lack of understanding of what defines "quality" by mentioning the Rolex.. While some Rolex are great (I have a stainless steel sub) for utility, they're hardly fine watches.

PHXATC

Uh-oh, here we go with the watches again..........next it's the rear seat leather issue.

Nevada Jack

RJM...why do you find it necessary to use [b] all the time in your posts..do you think you might not get noticed with standard type? Maybe that is why you bought a Lexus instead of a Camry or Avalon...nobody would notice you like they did in the Benz.

The more I read your posts the more I see you justifying your Lexus to yourself and others and criticizing others of being "snobs" when you yourself act like one.

By the way you cited some statistics in one of the many surveys you have posted to prove all MB's are falling apart. It stated that the survey was based on over 1 million responses over a 7 years period from 1998 to 2005. Well if you take an average of 12 million cars per years produced for 7 years that comes to 84 million cars. Basing a survey results on that number appears to me to be a pretty small sample and when split between all the manufacturers it really becomes a small sample per maker. That is the problem with JD Power and Consumer Reports...all they want is data so they can compile it and "sell that data" in magazines or by granting a license to use their "Seal" in ads. Their business is not protecting the consumer or helping someone make a buying decision...it is about making money and if the survey sample is small, who cares. They use the gross response figures to enhance their supposed validity.

So when you continue to post these surveys they mean really nothing. Yeah, I know Diesche says he wants to get the numbers up but he has to play that game because the PR of the surveyer's is working against his product. Diesche will proceed to return MB to it former position regardless of JD Power reports. He will do it because he knows that to continue to be profitable as a company, DCX must retain it's present buyers as well as capture new ones.

I say again...I have nothing against Lexus or Toyota. But this is a MB forum and it is here to inform it's users about the features of MB automobiles, not tell the members their cars are POS and the Japanese do it better.