rjm

I really don't understand your fascination and obsession over "names." Who cares if it's called "Toyota" or "Lexus"....what difference does it make? If Mercedes changed their name to "Hutmobile" would you still buy it? It's clear most here don't care about quality or reliability...that's been admitted by many forum members several times over...why are you so wrapped up in a "name?" It all comes down to, not how good a car it is, or whether you can depend on it to get you across the country....it's the snob appeal....what others will think of you. Do you really need that star on your hood to feel better about yourself? What a ridiculous reason to buy an automobile that you will be using for reliable transportation.

HELL ONA HARLEY

Well, sorry to disappoint but my car has had none of the problems you describe....Perhaps I'm lucky????.... Close minded???? I think not. I test drove many other makes before buying MB and had the $$$$ to buy anyone of them, including Lexus (which family members also own) and I'm sorry to say, it was like driving in my lazyboy.... I must say though, alot of gizmos in that lexus, but that's not what I'm looking for in a car. This is a MB website ,so don't be so suprised or shocked that there is biased remarks here. I'm sure the Lexus or even the ford sites are the same. Its obvious you've had a different MB ownership experience than myself.....
B.T.W.....I'm not knocking Lexus or other auto's, just the folks that come here to try to convert us to their brand. Like I'm going to listen to them when I did my homework already.

HELL ONA HARLEY

Hey Krispy...... You have seemed to flush the trolls out with your presence.... or should I say the converters

ajm0824

What you truly do no understand is the hypocritical logic you are using....



"Who cares if it is Toyota or Lexus"... I won't buy a car cause of the name like Mercedes like most Mercedes owners looking for snob appeal.... I only enjoy "value and reliability"... and yet I chose to by Lexus instead of Toyota for a substantial markup... essentially for the name.



Without sounding too much like I am attacking you... I believe that you need to exercise the use of the "Preview Post" button and re-read your arguments to see if they make sense.

krispykrme

I am not aiming to convert anyone. People has different choice. I simply don't like slaming other brand without merit.

Personally i think toyota makes great cars. But I have no intention of buying one, because they are way too much into driver isolation. Which I really really hates.

But not liking their product design or direction of their design is going does not mean i don't appreciate what they do. Not sure what people is aiming to achieve by calling a lexus a glorified toyota.

To be honest, we all can buy a 300C (since it is really an E-class with american engine). We all get better navi and free maint and free gas. So are we going to turn around and say W211 is a glorified 300C?

Come on. This is what bugs me.

CE750

Technically it's built on a W210, and further more it suffers from American Plastic interior syndrome.. fit and finish is also no comparison.

Nevada Jack

The Lexus is a variant of the Toyota...a higher grade Toyota. Nothing wrong with that. But the basic design is a Toyota.

A 300C is a Chrysler from the ground up with some Mercedes older components and built with American parts and in American factories.

The W211 is a Mercedes from the ground up with only the latest Mercedes engineering and built with German parts and in German factories.

Every Mercedes model is an orignal design by a design team but they are all Mercedes. None are upgraded from some basic model.


Talk about convoluted comparisons and thinking! That is what bugs me!

krispykrme

That i know. But it is still based on a MB design right? The point i am trying to make is that people on this forum is so quickly to slam lexus for being designed by toyota. Yet, we don't extend the same type of attitude to 300C/E class.

CE750

The chassis is the same (castings).. but this is nothing more then DCX recycling parts/engineering to save money, and at the same time boost the older 300 from a sub standard piece of ****, to a respectable car.

But the W211 chassis is a whole generation better than the 210...

it's like a Toyota Avalon vs Lexus ES300... only I could be wrong, in that they are on identical chassis..

Nevada Jack

No...not right! Chrysler has it's own design team and a good one at that...look at their success!

CE750

I'm not sure what the problem is with MB reliability anyway..

http://www.autobytel.com/content/res...on/Reliability

http://www.intellichoice.com/reports...enz/model/E320

krispykrme

You are so wrong.

1. 300C is build on the W210 chassis. The transmission, ESP... all came from MB NOT chrysler.

2. W211 is not all german parts either. Why don't you look at a W211 and see where parts came from. Also what makes german plant so special? Are they made of gold or diamond? I guess anything has german on it is automatically qualified as god buid all mighty.

Crossfire is another example. Chassis sharing is trend of the future to cut cost. Simple as that.

3. Prior to lexus brand being launched in Japan, it is true that lexus vehicle are badged as toyota. But does this mean it is a basic toyota design such as corolla? You must be dreaming.

Like i said, people who is stuck in the dark age that believe world is flat will never change.

CE750

E's sticker says.. 81% Germany, 0% US.. probably other 19% East Europe, Japan, Asia..

AS for the Crossfire.. its' built by a subcontractor in Germany, but uses the SLK chassis.. it's 0% Chrysler, except for it's badge... not the same as the 300C which is 85% Chrysler, and 15% MB (recycled older W210).

krispykrme

The avalon/ES/RX is build on same chassis. The GX/LX also have toyota version.

But the IS/LS/GS are not build on a regular toyota chassis.

Toyota is doing same thing what DCX is doing. Sharing a premium chassis to mainstream cars so it can compete better.

My point is that we are faulting toyota for doing exact same thing as DCX.

As DCX becomes more integrated, more platform and components will be shared. So if we are going to fault toyota for doing it, then same reasoning must apply to DCX.

CE750

I see a bid difference between MB (which acquired Chrysler) giving recycled stuff to Chrysler.. and Toyota (the lower end) giving stuff to Lexus (which never existed prior to Toyota)

Nevada Jack

Read the response...I stated the 300C was made with "some MB older parts."

I don't have my W211 sticker anymore but my S Class states 81% of the parts are made in Germany and 0% in the US or Canada. Just stressing that MB and Chrysler are different animals.

Crossfire was introduced as having the SLK chassie which helped the marketing of the vehicle. Certainly Chrysler parts in MB will work fine with the public but you can bet DCX knows that it will not work the other way around.

You can say what you will about the dark ages but I have driven more vehicles in my lifetime than you can name...in fact the world was considered flat when I got my first set of wheels. But stuck in the dark ages I am not...I just know a good automobile when I see one and the MB is that automobile.

Get your facts straight and then comment on the product. BTW...this is about MB's, not Chryslers....however, when you talk Lexus you cannot ingnore Toyota...they are the same car only with different levels of extras.

krispykrme

300C is assembled here hence the supplier is based in US. But this does not mean it is wholy designed by chrysler.

Put it this way, the camry is over 90% US, while is cousin ES is over 90% japanese. But both are same chassis, same powertrain. Based on your reasoning than ES is a japanese vehicle, the camry is US designed vehicle.

Crossfire is built by contractor, but exterior is done by chrysler. So to say it is badge only car is also obsurd, because chrysler did somework on the exterior.

Also, this also brings up another issue. Crossfire is basically a version of SLK, so it was designed to higher standard. Same applies to camry, because toyota used a premium chassis for a main stream car to save cost and make camry more of a car to compete. That's why camry has being selling well, because it had excellent NVH that US manufacturer can't match.

HELL ONA HARLEY

Wow.... Some great info (opinions) being shared here.... Just to set the record straight, I have never once as a member here ever slammed another automaker..... Just the folks who drive them......

Nevada Jack

Now who has their mind closed...you can't stand the truth even when you hear it. You are twisting the facts to meet your desire to make a point. The relationship between Toyota and Lexus products is totally different that the relationship between Mercedes and Chrysler products. Get over it...your arguement will not compute.

krispykrme

Toyota started building main stream car. But this does not mean it is incapable of building premium chassis. Last time i check, the most expansive toyota product is the over $100k toyota president with V12.

So you are now justifying discrimination because toyota started out as a main stream manufacturer instead of being a premium maker moving down.

What kind of dumb logic is this?

Heck, we all should now question all caddilacs, all saab, all jags, pretty much everybody save MB and BMW.

This is obsurd.

The simple fact is that toyota gain leverage by building a premium chassis across many application to reduce cost. Hence it brought camry up to a level that was not present in that segment of market. Reliability is designed in not as result of continous monitoring and correction. Why do you think toyota is reliable. Without a good chassis and design, you can't get quality with it.

Do you think toyota can make money by limiting its powerful 3.5 V6 simply to IS only? Or can it make more money by leveraging it across its lineup. The end benefit is consumer that gets an upper market engine at main stream prices.

Or are you going to turn around and say the avalon 3.5V6 is a piece of junk. Last time i check its more powerful than new MB V6.

So does badge matter? This is obsurd.

krispykrme

Like i said you are wrong.

Go take a look at 300C. Take a quick look at its ESP. The ESP actually is the same system as those of W211. Old part?

The chassis is based on W210 that is true. There is more sharing than you think.

Like i have said, toyota's premium chassis has always been designed to compete against MB and BMW. Whether you like it or not.

Just because the way toyota leverage their product more fully than DCX does not mean they are made to piece of a junk standard.

Case and point is the avalon V6. That 3.5V6 is more efficient, more powerful than the new V6 on the E350. (EPA 22/31 vs 18/26, 280~306HP vs 268HP)

Take a look at Camry for example. Through out the current generation, Toyota progessively moved ES only parts into it. Camry started out in 02 with an old 4 speed automatic and an old aluminum 3.0 V6. In 2003 it got updated with the 5 speed automatic along with VVTi 3.0 from ES300. This was followed up by the 3.3 V6 into the camry from ES in 2004. In that sense the people who bought camry benefited because toyota progessivly moved higher level components into lower level cars.

Toyota is excellent in sharing its components. But it does not mean its components are designed to corolla specification.

The problem with guys like you simply are not car enthusiast and pays no attention to what other people is doing. Always believeing that earth is flat and nothing will change because you guys refused to accept change and see what it out there.

Don't lecture me about fact when you don't have any idea on where the industry is going or has been. You have not deal with any other car company for the last past 30 years as you put it. Obviously you wouldn't have a clue on what other company is or are doing.

Sharing is key. I have no problem with company like toyota sharing its components around as long as it does it job. Badge does not matter. The simple fact is that everyone benefit from such move. That 3.5V6 in avalon is a perfect example how mainstream cars benefit from sharing components that was designed for premium use from day one.

This is reality. I have one more logic for you. By your own logic, toyota designs part to be used on level of corolla. So how does it feel to see a 3.5 V6 designed to corolla people mover level, to out perform the premium all powerful V6 from mercedes. So i guess the people mover technology is now so much better than powerful DCX with long history.

Nevada Jack

"Don't lecture me about fact when you don't have any idea on where the industry is going or has been. You have not deal with any other car company for the last past 30 years as you put it. Obviously you wouldn't have a clue on what other company is or are doing."

You don't read do you. I said my "primary" car has been Mercedes Benz. My first was in 1977...but my first car was a 1950 Studebaker! Don't lecture me on what I know or do not know about what the car industry has been doing for the past 50 years. You don't have any idea of what my background is. You continue to make the facts meet the arguement.

Sharing components is certainly a major concern and point of cost control...however, when it comes to Chrysler using Mercedes Benz parts and engineering there will be no problem. However, if MB begins to share parts and engineering design from Chrysler you will see a major concern from MB owners. They do not want to see MOPAR on their car anywhere. You don't seem to understand the mentality of owning a MB...it is a driving experience, not just another car. It is not a Toyota in a more expensive suit called a Lexus. It is a Mercedes and always has been a Mercedes and had better remain a Mercedes.

I see no end to this discussion. You are like a one way street...you like to talk but do not listen.

CE750

Some people just don't know when to give respect where it's deserved.. Forget him Nevada.. I sometimes wonder if he really has those MB's still, or is it all Lexus and BMW now..

AJU_E350

A little off topic but I always wonder how many people actually own the cars they talk about... I could only imagine how many bullsh*t people "live" through these forums then leave home and hop on their local bus to get to work.

CE750

True... in my case, there are pics of my car in my profile. I even recently posted a picture of the Title which I just had sent!

Nevada has his S in his sig, as does HoH... but many critics are not very convincing as "owners"