CE750

but it [IS] a glorified Toyota, that's just it... Even in Japan, until recently, there was no LEXUS.. that's a made up name that they made to compete with the Germans in the US.

German cars are ahead of all cars, not just Japanese, but also UK, Italy, France, etc.... There is a good reason for this.

In Germany, you can still drive 200mph legally, and as such cars are engineered with that in mind. In Japan, and the US, 65 to 70 are the typical speeds..

The reality is that in 120 yeas, MB has learned a lot more about what a car should be than most companies. YES, they need some help in the electrical stuff, but it's just that.. some help, they're not a lost cause, and until cars become all electric, they are still the leader in automotive engineering.

CE750

Did you ever thing that maybe, just maybe, you got what known in the autoworld as a "lemon"?

No car maker is immune from making them..

krispykrme

Not really true.

Toyota has experiene on both Indy and F1 front. Not to mention they were the 2nd team (behind ferrari) to come to F1 with a car that was 100% designed within toyota.

You really think that toyota has no technology in making car smooth above 200 mph?

History does not mean a thing. There are plenty of companies that has long history and is in dire straight. There are companies with short history that are doing well.

MB has been building cars fo 100+ year. Toyota has been building cars for over 50 years. Automotive industry changes fairly quickly. History does not really mean a thing.

Lexus was created to compete with BMW/MB. Because when people buy a car, it's not only the product itself but the whole experience as a brand as well.

Do you think people would buy a LS430 if you have to share a dealership with a guy who bought tercel? Look at VW phaeton, you get the idea that this does not work.

But does thin mean lexus is made of low end technology? or cheap materials used in corolla?

It does not. Take a look at example i brought up. The avalon 3.5 V6 is better than what MB brings to the table. Just because Toyota put it into a main stream product to share engineering cost, does it mean that 3.5V6 is junk?

The fact of matter is that throwing the badge aside. That 3.5 V6 is better designed and assembled than MB's new V6.

Whether its under lexus or toyota brand, the quality, design, and technology does not change. It is in name only.

CE750

IF you really think there is a direct comparison with an F1 car and a production street car, we are never going to agree on anything, you and I!

The engineers at MB, themselves living in Germany, know what it's like to drive at 150 for as much as an hour.. this is personal experience that few if any Toyota engineer is ever going to have.. This is part of what builds the "Brain-trust" that make MB Engineering what it is.. The fact that it's in Germany!

Plus, if you want to talk auto racing, Mercedes has a history matched only by a few makes... Ferrari, and Porsche come to mind.

aceman

I dunno. Some of you guys like to call Lexus a "glorified toyota", acuras are overprice honda's, etc. etc.

To me its all just marketing/branding. In europe, you can buy a MB that has less std equipment than a honda civic. I remember being totally floored when i got into a cab and it was a stripped benz, no power windows, no leather, etc. etc. Over there, they also sell their cars to the same segment that honda/toyota/gm/ford sell to here. That doesn't make the higher end line any less of a vehicle. IMO there's clearly separation between the entry level cars/brands and the lux brands - and this is from my own experience with a Lexus LS400, an Acura Legend, and Acura RL.

If MB was selling their "C" class here stripped under a different brand name, would the same people who mock a lexus as being a toyota do the same with benzes? IMO probably not. Face it - there are folks on this forum who think MB is gods gift to the auto industry, and will knock any car/brand that they feel can give MB a run for their money when it comes to competing against benz.

Aceman

HELL ONA HARLEY

O.K.....I now crown you "pimp daddy troll"........

B.T.W.....Proof is in the pudding and Both cars look great

krispykrme

History has no meaning.

It's all about what have you done lately.

The fact of matter is that at current time, toyota has a good F-1 program from the grounds up. MB does not. I know MB supplies engine, but not full car.

So you are saying that in order to design a great car with high speed capability that you must be german, live in germany. So in other word, you are discrminating.

Technology does flow down from racing to production cars. Take a look at vtec, vvti,....and host of others. Those were product of racing effort.

Do you really think that company would sink tons of $$$$$$$$ to just race for fun?

Also, in case you haven't forgot. Toyota has already been able to design fast street car since early 90 in forms of Supra TT. So i guess you are going to diss that since the Supra TT engineer is not born in germany nor live in germany, hence it is totally unstable in excess of triple digit speed.

BTW, toyota does have a design center in europe and does employ german engineers as well. In fact last time i check, I believe toyota's F1 headquarter is in europe.

Why not just come out and state the obvious truth? You and nevada jacks are discrmininating against japanese car because of they are japanese.

I haven't seen any kind of concrete counter arguement from either one of you except. "MB have german engineers, that drink german beers, eat german sausage, and they drive fast because they have autobahn.).

Next time take a trip to toyota city and see the track that toyota has. Japanese are not stupid or ignorant as you are making them out to be.

Spartan

Okay.....OKAY...I confess! No need to torture me anymore!

I'm one of those people. I just don't have a life and I need to be around people with Benzes to feel like a real man.

Sadly, this is my daily transport........





.......and I hope you guys forgive me.

CE750

Did you not read my comment about Japanese optics, and knives that I own.. I don't care if something is Japanese (Chinese, now that's a whole different story).. but I buy German cars because THEY ARE THE BEST..

I even did a poll on my Macintosh Message board a while back asking what country makes the best cars, and Germany more votes than all of the others combined! Wana see it?

HELL ONA HARLEY

This is true since Lexus has no history....



L.O.L..... this has got to be one of the most desperate statements I've ever read on this forum...

So tell me Mr Krispy, ye of "give credit when credit is due".....I've read your rantings about MB's for two years now. So why don't you entertain us and tell us some of the good points about our and your cars... Surely you could think of a few???? You were stupid enough to buy four MB's so there must be something about them you like.... and by your earlier comments I see at least your wife has good taste.... in cars that is.

AJU_E350

Well.... this is a german bred horse. Right?

Nevada Jack

Love the wheels...are they early BRABUS?

Navigation was easy in those days also...just drop the leads and the horse knew the way home.

CE750

This would be like me going in and buying another E w/leather inserts, and then complaining about it again!

4 cars and all of this dislike for the brand. What was he thinking?

CE750

No, those were St. Peter.. the Brabus model was discontinued after the death of Christ!

ultraseven

rjm - the fact that you posted a Cosumer Reports link, on a forum with ppl that swear and perhaps only frolick in their Benzos, renders you a troll.

Judging by the tone of your comments, I am surprised to see you own a LS.

Personally I don't care what MB, BMW, Rolls Royce, or anyone else pioneered. Lexus's knee airbags is a great idea, but I find it hardly ground-breaking. For most people except the naive, buying a German car should have raised a red flag on reliability. Does that make it a lesser car? I bet most Ferrari's break down on a monthly basis, but would I take that over a Civic?

What I care is the people who are somehow jealous at what I have by throwing eggs at my car the other night. As angry as you are, this is when you know you have something they want and they will probably never get.

rjm

You speak the TRUTH
Krispykrme......YOU DA MAN!

mick1

me, I'm definitely guilty of discriminating against korean cars. I don't know why people would buy a korean car over a japanese car when the equivalent japanese car only costs slightly more

HELL ONA HARLEY

Misery loves company...... or should I say a match made in heaven.

Bode

I just do not get it , lets compare the "fabulous" toyota 3.5 V6 to the MB's 3.5 V6:

Toyota:
3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve Dual VVT-i V6 268 hp @ 6200 rpm 248 lb.-ft. @ 4700 rpm

MB's:
3,498-cc DOHC 24-valve 90° V-6, Counter-rotating balance shaft. 268 hp @ 6,000 rpm, 258 lb-ft @ 2,400 to 5,000 rpm. The fact that the MB engine out performs the Toyota, especially with its incredible flat torque behaviour from 2400 to 5000 rpm, which basically is what every engine's designer dreams about, is due the MB's:
- Dual overhead camshafts with continuously variable intake and exhaust timing.
- the 2-stage resonance intake manifold which increases intake runner length at lower rpm for improved cilinder fill throughout the rev range.
- Electropneumatic turbulence flaps at start of intake path help increase intake airflow speed at midrange rpm, again better cilinder fill leading to stronger and more complete combustion.

In combination with the 7speed auto gearbox (vs 5 sp for the toyota...) the Benz technology is actually far superior. In fact, if krispykrme knew what he was talking about he would have never made this statement about the "better" designed Toyota V6. It basically bears no understanding whatsover about this topic. Sorry for slapping you a bit , but I happen to hold a Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering and did research on engines so I do know a little bit what I am talking about......

With regard to reliability or endurance, only time will tell, but I have not seen any complaints yet about the new MB V6 in either the E or SLK forum discussions.

Have a great Thanksgiving all .

CE750

Not to mention, what kind of Diesel technology does Toyota have?

The CDI engines are setting new records (many world records) every day..

mgsbenz79

It seems like every vehicle over a certain price range (about $55,000) is trashed by consumer reports! It any of these vehicles, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Audi- even VW now, is extremely disliked by CR.
...all that is except Lexus...
It has made me wonder if they just become extremely dissatisfied if an expensive vehicle has even one slight issue, or there are executives from Toyota on the board of directors at Consumer Reports!
My family and I have owned Mercedes, both new and old for many years now, and, like any machine, there are issues from time to time, but never anything major or what I would consider "poor quality."
Although Mercedes vehicles have changed from the w123's, w124's and 126's of the 80's, a Mercedes is still the best riding vehicle I've ever driven, and still, I feel, the safest around.
If you look into the consumer reports comments from its members, even though they may rate Mercedes low, there is usually some comment like "I love the way this car looks and drives."
Instead of badgering Mercedes and other companies whose vehicles rate "low," people should do an investigation of Consumer Reports board of directors!

ruykava

just read the CR review of the new M-class. they generally liked it but said "the shifter is easy to hit when you are twirling the wheel, because it is located next to it". hmmm, i duno, how big do your hands have to be to do that? the shifter seemed pretty far back when i tried, unless CR people are driving with splayed hands :p

seems as logical as saying that "it's too easy to hit the turning indicator stalk because they're next to the steering wheel" they obviously didn't have a problem when they tried that in the 7-series... or the RR... =)

also, as i understand it the stalk doesn't allow "dangerous" shifting e.g., if you are in Drive, the transmission won't go to Neutral or Reverse while you're moving, even if you selected it. so when CR seemed to claim that they accidentally went into Neutral while taking a corner... well... (btw story is in this month [November 2005]'s CR - i read it in passing so if any facts about the story are wrong, please correct me)

JWS3

Not the old "they didn't say what I want to hear so they must be _________(fill in the blank -- dishonest, stupid, paid off, bribed, etc)". The car magazines hear this all the time, usually in reverse- its how much the German mfgrs pay them off to always come up on top.
Yes, Consumers takes an "appliance" mentality to cars, which is why I take their performance reviews with a grain of salt. Their reliability reviews, however, I do take more seriously as they are generally more objective and based on empirical data. And--MB's reliabilty ratings have justifiably taken a beating. Like BMW, they drive like no other, at least for now. While Lexus may not yet have the "feel" of a Benz, we also don't see Exus owners' boards filled with the same visceral anger at quality, omissions and outright stupidity that we see here. I've been on Lexus boards as of late and you know what? They are filled with people ticked off at arrogance, stupidity and disappointment at BMW, MB and Audi. Yes, there are posts with problems, but far more common is the " I really wanted to like BMW, MB, etc., but being on a first name basis w/ the service advisor got old. Fast"
In short, don't shoot the messenger. Also, and before I forget, recall that before Chris Bangle "Fuglified" the 5 series the 530 was CR's highest rated car two years in a row.

CE750

It's all the whining and biaching of them and the rest of the American public that got the damned shifter moved up there so the can make room for the Big Gulp sized cupholders that American demand in their luxury cars these days!

Nevada Jack

Right CE. The PR on the new R Class bragged about the "huge" cupholders and they stated they "got it right this time." That was to satisfy the JD Power and CR groups but the first thing I wanted to know was there a cover for that "ugly" setup in the R Class console. I am a fan of that car but the cupholder is a farce.

Too many time likes and dislikes enter the survey results and skew the category responses. Because they don't like something, they mark it as a "problem" and so goes the validity of the data.