CE750

read here, and learn my young padwan..

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/sbc.html

SBC... when it's working (99.9999% of the time) is head and shoulders above vacuum assisted hydromechanical control.

mleskovar

"SBC to be adapted or changed
Due to its complexity, serviceability and costs, Sensotronic may be changed in future Mercedes models. Several of the new SBC functions may be integrated into a more conventional hydraulic ESP system.
9/15/2003"
I guess even MB agrees with me. My contention all along is SBC is not worth the extra baggage, not that it doesn't work. I don't get the "head and shoulders above" the conventional system....it offers only marginal 'features' and questionable improvement. ESP already gives individual wheel braking capability so why didn't they just upgrade it with these features? I know, "you can talk to a German engineer but you can't tell him anything" (I think that's how it goes )

Spartan

When I had my failure, the sytem rebooted itself after I restarted the car. It was as if nothing happened. However, the system keeps a record of the event.

I suspected that they were not absolutely sure what caused the failure. After all, it was not a catastrophic failure and it may be hidden in a myriad of switches, cables and computer chips.

It's well within the realm of possibility that Mercedes does not know the real reason the SBC fails OR perhaps they do know how it fails but far too expensive to repair. For example, if the SBC itself is prone to mysterious failures then how are they going to replace the complete brakes system on a million cars? They would have to buy them back and this will bankrupt them.

I suspect that if the SBC fails at a rising rate as cars get older, there will a massive class action lawsuit in the US that will cost Mercedes billions.

Complete brake replacement could be $2,000 per car therefore at least 2 billion. Accelerated depreciation because of a defective safety product, add another $10,000 per car or $10 billion. Or if they are forced to buy back then it could run into the 50 billion range.

I have a piece of advice for anyone who has MB stock. SELL NOW!

Spartan

I think that there are already four or five failures from members on this board.

Spartan

I know that I had one.

However...........

This is the internet and you never know if a BMW/Lexus salesman/mechanic/car jockey/a$$hole got bored with his life and decided to create some negative publicity for Mercedes.

BudC

Just how many switches, cables and computer chips do you think are going away if all they do is replace the SBC pump with a vacuum assisted, old fashioned master cylinder.

There seems to be one common denominator with these *failures*, the SBC system is shut down and it goes to backup mode which hasn't any vacuum assist.

So far we know of three things that have caused it:

1. Worn pumps on taxis.
2. Incorrect brake fluid servicing.
3. SBC cable coming unplugged.

konigstiger

The flex lines Bud had installed were to resolve a high frequency whistling noise heard when depressing the brake pedal. The noise is generated by separation coils in the SBC control unit, conducted to the brake operating unit by the steel lines, and then into the interior of the vehicle. BTW I also had this done to my ’03 e320.

My VIN is not included in the recall. Compare my pictures and you see that you do not have the bracket referenced by the recall. Once again, there is no way to tell if the new ground wire harness is installed without checking inside the SBC harness connector housing.

Therefore, since you do not have the bracket and your VIN is included in the recall I would suggest having it inspected.

Spartan

Actually four. Mine showed no apperent reason for failure.

The car was less then a year old and had about 9,000 miles. I can't remember the exact mileage but I had not done the "official" 10,000 mile service yet. NOBODY had touched the car without my presence. The ONLY thing the dealer had done to it was change the oil at about 5,000 miles and I was standing 3 feet away.

They did replace the SBC unit but as a ex-mechanic and as an engineer, I had this ugly feeling that they were replacing it because they had nothing else to go on.

I have written about this on this board a few times. If people chose not to believe it so be it. I know what happened and I kept all the work orders and paperwork to make sure I had a legal case if it happens again. If it does happen again, I am going to demand/sue my money back and go buy another brand.

Meawhile....

The '06 is running fine and I stil love the car. I hope to keep it for at least 5 years.

mleskovar

The SBC pump has how many wires going into it? Each of those wires has a separate function. How about the backup battery and wires to carry that power to the front of the car? How about the VAST difference in complexity between the pump and an "old fashion" (that's a hoot ) master cylinder? Don't forget the brake pedal hardware to convert the foot pressure to a digital response. Software to control the pump and remote input (think reliability) would be reduced/removed as well. Most is already in place in ESP/AB equiped MB cars to provide those 'features' supposedly unique to SBC.
So removing a well tested, efficient, relativley inexpensive, easy to diagnose and repair, reliable hydraulic cylinder and adding the new concept of a pump, associated hardware and software, and digital foot pressure response to achieve the same result is a good idea? Then to add insult to injury, the backup system takes the whole braking system back to the 1950 pre brake booster days...but only activates the front brakes! Even a "1963 Buick with Dynaflow" has brakes to all four wheels in backup mode.

kbond555

I agree with you that we can not be absolutely sure taht such a thing happened to all of them. But about 2 cases I know not from internet.

But returning to the issue...

I work now with a specialist from accidents reconstruction to estimate the braking distance when SBC is in the failure mode. ( Braking only with front wheels withous any assistance (servo) ) Today I will have the news about it. But for the moment thay are not very good for users. The braking way is much longer than when SBC is working properly.

Is anybody aware if some lawsuits are going on regarding this matter or ours will be the first?

Best regards

kbond555

Regarding our issue the E 55 AMG they want to take this car and give some money back but not all. We treat SBC problem regarding both e55 and E 320 ( for the moment no accident only incident in the garage (described earlier)but is not used). The second car they do not want back.
Our company lawyers refuse to use E 320. If some of our workers will have accident then the manager who allowed him to use this car may have prob;lems in the court. ( The manage was aware that SBC may be dangerous for users)

I know that if they will accept it more Sbc usres will do the same...that is why they are so stubborn and do not want to talk seriously.

Scambo

When the battery control module goes out, it will kill your braking system and cause all sorts of other failures including transmission, air conditioning, brakes and others. It happened to me, and luckily I was not going fast and able to get off the highway, barely! My 7-speed transmission system was malfunctioning during all of this, bacially shifting through the gears while I was going 5 mph. So, couple that with total brake failure, and you have the potential for a traffic disaster. It was the day before Texas/OU, so everyone was on the road heading for Dallas. It was a nightmare when all the systems were failing.

kbond555

Today evening I will have full report of simulation how much longer will be the brakeing way when SBC is in failure mode. I will submit you this information on sunday

glojo

Hi Kbond,
Any owner of a 211 that is not concerned about ‘alleged’ SBC’ braking problems is in my opinion foolish. BUT we must surely pay attention to ALL the facts and not pay to much attention to speculation.

I have no idea of the circumstances behind this reported incident and can only go by what has been said, however if there was a problem with that E55’s braking system then surely Daimler Chrysler would buy that car back so quickly we would not even have time to blink. It is in their interest to find out what went wrong, how it went wrong and most important, how to rectify it.

Our vehicles are fitted with numerous ‘black boxes’ and I would suspect they know the real cause of this incident, and by their attitude I would respectfully suggest they believe the cause is NOT the brakes??

In the UK the most common van by a country mile is the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter, it is the work horse of all the different delivery companies, couriers etc, plus the backbone for our emergency services, namely ambulances, and the numerous different types of Police vans. A couple of weeks ago it was alleged at a coroners court that this vehicle had an inherent problem with the braking system. The Coroner wished to bring this fact to the attention of Mercedes-Benz UK.

I own both a Sprinter and a 211 so I have an interest in both. After a couple of days I contacted my dealer and asked what was happening about the allegations made concerning the Sprinter.

I was informed that in the previous two days they had eight call outs from drivers refusing to drive their vans because they were not happy with the ‘feel’ of the brakes. EVERY vehicle had been neglected and the brakes were worn out!!! The vehicle in question was four years old and had covered in excess of 600,000 miles. The company had stated it was regularly serviced, but NOT by any dealer (Hence no proof) At the time of the incident it was raining, the vehicle was speeding and the driver braked violently whilst negotiating a bend!!! Surprise, surprise the vehicle crashed. They are the FACTS, but a brake balancing valve was corroded and the coroner elected to blame that?? My point here is that there are thousands and thousands of these Sprinter vans plying our highways, yet they are not pirouetting off our roads.

The same remarks apply to the E-class 211 and the SBC issue. If there was a problem doesn’t anyone think it strange that there are not dozens of folks complaining. Yes there are reported problems, but we don’t know the REAL reason? SBC is electronically controlled and it is possible that there might be the odd defective valve\transistors or piece of wire etc. A number of Police Forces in the UK use the 211 as a response vehicle and they thrash the living daylights out of them for a minimum of three years or 300,000 miles !!! If there was a problem with the braking system, does anyone honestly believe they would still be on our roads??

I am preaching to a nation that has for years specialised in conspiracy theories so there will always be those that will never accept that the SBC system is the best thing since brakes were invented!! If this system was as poor as we are being told, then why is it fitted to the SLR?

The US system is a very, very basic cut down version of SBC and sadly it has none of the bells and whistles that are fitted to the European version, and that’s a shame. It is alleged that this is because of the litigation minded residents of your fine country, but I would very respectfully suggest it is purely COST $$$ SBC is a very expensive system, Daimler Chrysler are struggling to keep the costs of this vehicle down and keep cutting back on the ‘standard’ fittings that come with this excellent vehicle. I consider the early 2004 European models to be the best value and since then the goodies have slowly been removed from the specification.

By crikey I have made up for my absence and I apologise for this extended ramble.

I do accept that there has been two recalls (at least) and a number of 'Upgrades' that have been carried out to improve the system, and to me that is a plus. Mercedes-Benz are clearly monitoring the WHOLE car and mine has had countless 'upgrades' during its life.

Christmas greetings to you all.
Regards,
John

CE750

Sad and true.... I wish we have about 1/2 as many lawyers.

BudC

Oh boy! What I could do with that statement regarding the ACLU

CE750

Ok Dan, your the master of Dealer interaction..

How do I deal with this one... I've called, and they've referenced my VIN and I also called MBUSA.. both claim no need for retro-fit..

YET it clear to see I DON'T have the bracket.. I am sure the E350 is the same.. so what to do?

konigstiger

You print the thread or just my pictures and compare with a face to face with Steele (Schumacher). BTW, didn’t you mention that your VIN was actually included in the recall list? https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/129810-another-sbc-recall.html

Oh one more thing, in looking closer I see you can tell if the ground wires were revised by looking at the fabric tape you’ll see a portion the orange wire(s) exposed beside the original fabric tape depicted in both my and bud’s pictures.

BudC

Thank God we have posters like John who can coolly and intelligently put this subject into perspective. I only wish I could have done it.

Thank you John.

CE750

Did just that...

I did indeed, and I called Schumacher and told them, and my SA crosschecked my VIN into their computer which he claimed is a master list, that supercedes the VIN list as it takes the specific VIN into account, and he said I needed no recalls performed.

Will do! thanks

mleskovar

Does the Sprinter use SBC?

SBC is on the SLR because it was the most technologically advanced system at the time and the SLR is a limited edition rolling advertisement.

Please enlighten us about what we're missing in the US that SBC offers. My major grief with SBC is they could have accomplished all the 'bells and whistles' offered by SBC in the US with the standard braking package and retained reliability, backup, lower weight, and lower cost. If there are legitimate reasons beyond what we see in the US for SBC maybe it's worth it. And for the statement "If there was a problem with the braking system, does anyone honestly believe they would still be on our roads?? I don't believe it is engineered wrong. It's just too complex for what it does and opens itself for catastrophic failures unneccessarily and the consumer and public are the crash test dummies.

CE750

SBC in Europe has a lot of cool stuff, like a mode that lets you stop in traffic without using the parking brake, and then release the brakes again.. but without having to keep constant pressure on the pedal.

There are a few more cool features, but I'll let glojo explain

HELL ONA HARLEY

welcome back johnny...

marcos

Gotta agree with you on every point. My sentiments exactly.

Cheers John

kbond555

[QUOTE=glojo]Hi Kbond,

I have no idea of the circumstances behind this reported incident and can only go by what has been said, however if there was a problem with that E55’s braking system then surely Daimler Chrysler would buy that car back so quickly we would not even have time to blink. It is in their interest to find out what went wrong, how it went wrong and most important, how to rectify it.



E 55 they want to buy from us. But not E320. We treat those two cars as one issue. That is why we refused to do it. Only when DC will buy (replace) 2 cars.

Our vehicles are fitted with numerous ‘black boxes’ and I would suspect they know the real cause of this incident, and by their attitude I would respectfully suggest they believe the cause is NOT the brakes??


But they told that it was "incident" and it was SBC failure. And on the next day recall campaign started. I worked for big automotive company and I am sure that the upgrades (software or parts) cost a fortune and no one will be happy ( especially shareholders & financial guys) to make it for free so often...




I was informed that in the previous two days they had eight call outs from drivers refusing to drive their vans because they were not happy with the ‘feel’ of the brakes. EVERY vehicle had been neglected and the brakes were worn out!!! The vehicle in question was four years old and had covered in excess of 600,000 miles. The company had stated it was regularly serviced, but NOT by any dealer (Hence no proof) At the time of the incident it was raining, the vehicle was speeding and the driver braked violently whilst negotiating a bend!!! Surprise, surprise the vehicle crashed. They are the FACTS, but a brake balancing valve was corroded and the coroner elected to blame that?? My point here is that there are thousands and thousands of these Sprinter vans plying our highways, yet they are not pirouetting off our roads.



But when you have a car that is almost new 10000 km so it is not an old car with worn out parts.And coming back to black box they confirmed that it was SBC malfunction





The same remarks apply to the E-class 211 and the SBC issue. If there was a problem doesn’t anyone think it strange that there are not dozens of folks complaining. Yes there are reported problems, but we don’t know the REAL reason? SBC is electronically controlled and it is possible that there might be the odd defective valve\transistors or piece of wire etc. A number of Police Forces in the UK use the 211 as a response vehicle and they thrash the living daylights out of them for a minimum of three years or 300,000 miles !!! If there was a problem with the braking system, does anyone honestly believe they would still be on our roads??



For the moment appeared 1300 cases -based on Auto BILD

I am preaching to a nation that has for years specialised in conspiracy theories so there will always be those that will never accept that the SBC system is the best thing since brakes were invented!! If this system was as poor as we are being told, then why is it fitted to the SLR?


Yes when they started to produce SBC it was the best. And it is the best system when everything is going OK. When the system goes to "failure mode" than russian roulette starts...



By crikey I have made up for my absence and I apologise for this extended ramble.

I am very happy that discussion is more and more interessant, thank you for your contribution



I do accept that there has been two recalls (at least) and a number of 'Upgrades' that have been carried out to improve the system, and to me that is a plus. Mercedes-Benz are clearly monitoring the WHOLE car and mine has had countless 'upgrades' during its life.


You are right, that is good that they are doing this..but how can you explain that accidents got happen after SBC upgrades...That means that their countermeasures are not as effective as they shoould be..


Regards