SBC malfunction = accident
12-19-2005, 11:48 PM
#76
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[QUOTE=BudC]
Ooops....my intent isn't to flame. I'm expressing my opinion about SBC and discussing it with you. And you. I understand you feel "Mercedes are dropping SBC because of cost and liability concerns" and I agree with that statement but also feel it offers nothing beyond current sytems that is useful and should never have been introduced. I keep hearing from you, and you, that it is the best thing since sliced bread but you can't tell me why, other than it 'makes me feel more secure'. The C-Class is MB's poster child for "how to damage a product image in one easy lesson". I only keep it because it is the best driving car in it's class. But it's not reliable, and neither is SBC. Toyotas are reliable, and drive like crap. Life's a choice.
Originally Posted by mleskovar
If you would pay attention you would know that most of us believe Mercedes are dropping SBC because of cost and liability concerns.
BTW, why are you over here flaming our cars when you should have plenty to say on the C-Class forum about the 2001 W203 which has well over 100 applicable TSB's?
BTW, why are you over here flaming our cars when you should have plenty to say on the C-Class forum about the 2001 W203 which has well over 100 applicable TSB's?
12-19-2005, 11:52 PM
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[QUOTE=mleskovar]
L.O.L.......Sorry guys.... is it me ?????
Originally Posted by BudC
Ooops....my intent isn't to flame. I'm expressing my opinion about SBC and discussing it with you. And you. I understand you feel "Mercedes are dropping SBC because of cost and liability concerns" and I agree with that statement but also feel it offers nothing beyond current sytems that is useful and should never have been introduced. I keep hearing from you, and you, that it is the best thing since sliced bread but you can't tell me why, other than it 'makes me feel more secure'. The C-Class is MB's poster child for "how to damage a product image in one easy lesson". I only keep it because it is the best driving car in it's class. But it's not reliable, and neither is SBC. Toyotas are reliable, and drive like crap. Life's a choice.
L.O.L.......Sorry guys.... is it me ?????
12-20-2005, 12:01 AM
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2011 E550, 2013 GLK
Well, I'm glad someone has taken the time to come over here and tell us the brakes on our cars are unreliable. I'm still waiting for the proof but then it isn't the first time we've had Chicken Littles come here and tell us the sky is falling.
I'm sitting here debating whether or not I should take my wife's keys away from her. I guess I should make her drive the golf cart to the Spa.
We did find out that the W203 is the best driving experience in it's class. You could have fooled me, I thought it was the BMW 3'er.
I'm sitting here debating whether or not I should take my wife's keys away from her. I guess I should make her drive the golf cart to the Spa.
We did find out that the W203 is the best driving experience in it's class. You could have fooled me, I thought it was the BMW 3'er.
12-20-2005, 12:05 AM
#79
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[QUOTE=HELL ONA HARLEY]
No, my C class does not have SBC. MB admitted it made a mistake by discontinuing SBC after two years on the market. Money, reliability, features, whatever....doesn't matter. It is discontinued because it is a bad decision to begin with. Hopefully MB will take all the features supposedly offered by SBC and either incorporate them in the current systems or produce a more reliable, cheaper, quiet, easier to maintain, longer lived, brake system.
Originally Posted by mleskovar
Do you have a daily driver with the SBC???? Also, I would love to read the info where MB admits SBC was a mistake.
12-20-2005, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
Furthermore, all the reports I've read are reported on the internet (all here) and not a "credible" news source. Yup, thats right!!! I don't believe everything I read on the web, just call me
..... I'm sure there are plenty more conventional braking system failures out there, but hell, they wouldn't be nearly as much fun to report than knocking MB's latest and greatest braking system. I'm sure some of the reports have validity to them but I'm a hard one to convince, especially from faceless words. So I'm with bud, "show me the money".... or should I say the proof. I also have to agree thats it pure "bottom line" profits making the decision for MB to cut SBC or at least part of the system from future cars. Too bad..
HOH, you are right, this is the internet and not everything is what it appears to be. However, most people on these forums tend to be on the level. Sure, they may add a miles or two to their gas mileage (I get 78 mpg :p ) but all in all, most people don't come on to these boards with an agenda.
As for conspirecies.....
I was told by THREE people in Mercedes upper eschelon that they have NEVER replaced SBC units and none have ever failed other them mine. I know this to be a bare faced lie. I don't want to get any people working for Mercedes into trouble, but let's just say that "Deep Throats" told me that about a dozen units have been replaced in 2003's. A second "Deep Throats" in another dealership also said that several SBC units were replaced. No year specified. It seems that those upper management people I spoke to had short memories.
Is the ratio of cars to defective units high? What's "high" or more corectly, what's "low" when lives are at stake? We are not really privy to the real "failure rate" info from Mercedes and they obviously have a damn good reason not to disclose anything. After all, reputations take decades to create and it could be lost in weeks/months (see Firestone). It would take a court order from God and a hundred lawyers to get information from Mercedes about brake failures. No magazine or newspaper is going to enter Mercedes headquarters and just be given whatever they need to write a story about failing brakes. Car companies are not suicidal. After all, EVERY car company has a legion of public relation people whose ONLY job is to make the company look good.
Is this a "minor" problem. Not at all. A car company NEVER, EVER had a recall for no reason, or even minor/trivial reason. Even a small recall cost tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars and eats away at the companies reputation. Particularly a company that prides itself in engineering and safety like Mercedes. Believe me, as an owner of manufacturing companies, it's no fun to watch your bottom line shrivel away at some quality problem that you have to fix/replace way after the sale was already made.
Bottom line.....
You have the right to believe anything you like. Scepticism is healthy in a medium such as this. However, look at one simple fact. There has been THREE recalls to "fix" the SBC problems and the cars are not even 4 years old. Worse still, as the bulk of the cars approach to 70-80,000 mile and they land up as second hand cars, we will see an avalance of problems. If and when that happens, those who havn't had brake failure will have heart failure......from the deeply depressed value of the cars.
And last but not least, if I was down in sunny Claifornia or you come up here in polar bear country, I would gladly buy you a coffee and show you my invoices. Bring your Harley, it's been a million year since I rode a bike.
.
Last edited by Spartan; 12-20-2005 at 12:24 AM.
12-20-2005, 12:16 AM
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[QUOTE=mleskovar]
Hmmmm. Lets see here...... SBC was introduced in model year 03 then came 04, 05, and its still being used in 06 models as well.... Hmmmm, that 4 years in my book, but hey,whos counting???? I gave you my reasons why I like the system, yours are based on no personal experience and others opinions as you don't drive the system on a daily basis, so you opinion means **** to me. So go ahead and keep driving your "safe and reliable" C class and I'll take my chances in my E..... Peace out.
Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
No, my C class does not have SBC. MB admitted it made a mistake by discontinuing SBC after two years on the market. Money, reliability, features, whatever....doesn't matter. It is discontinued because it is a bad decision to begin with. Hopefully MB will take all the features supposedly offered by SBC and either incorporate them in the current systems or produce a more reliable, cheaper, quiet, easier to maintain, longer lived, brake system.
Hmmmm. Lets see here...... SBC was introduced in model year 03 then came 04, 05, and its still being used in 06 models as well.... Hmmmm, that 4 years in my book, but hey,whos counting???? I gave you my reasons why I like the system, yours are based on no personal experience and others opinions as you don't drive the system on a daily basis, so you opinion means **** to me. So go ahead and keep driving your "safe and reliable" C class and I'll take my chances in my E..... Peace out.
12-20-2005, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Spartan
I just received my check from Lexus. They said I did a fine job about adding to the SBC conspiracy!
HOH, you are right, this is the internet and not everything is what it appears to be. However, most people on these forums tend to be on the level. Sure, they may add a miles or two to their gas mileage (I get 78 mpg :p ) but all in all, most people don't come on to these boards with an agenda.
As for conspirecies.....
I was told by THREE people in Mercedes upper eschelon that they have NEVER replaced SBC units and none have ever failed other them mine. I know this to be a bare faced lie. I don't want to get any people working for a living in Mercedes to get into trouble but let's just say that "Deep Throats" told me that about a dozen units have been replaced in 2003's. A second "Deep Throats" in another dealership also said that several SBC units were replaced. No year specified. It seems that those upper management people I spoke to had short memories.
Is the ratio of cars to defective units high? What's "high" or more corectly, what's "low" when lives are at stake? We are not really privy to the real "failure rate" info from Mercedes and they obviously have a damn good reason not to disclose anything. After all, reputations take decades to create and they could be lost in weeks/months. It would take a court order and a hundred lawyers to get that kind of information out of Mercedes about brake failures. No magazine or newspaper is going to enter Mercedes headquarters and just be given whatever they need to write a story about failing brakes. Car companies are not suicidal. After all, EVERY car company has a legion of public relation people whose ONLY job is to make the company look good.
Is this a "minor" problem. Not at all. A car company NEVER, EVER had a recall for no reason, or even minor or trivial reason. Even a small recall cost tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars and eats away at the companies reputation. Particularly a company that prides itself in engineering and safety like Mercedes. Believe me, as an owner of manufacturing companies, it's no fun to watch your bottom line shrivel away at some quality problem that you have to fix/replace way after the sale was already made.
Bottom line.....
You have the right to believe anything you like. Scepticism is healthy in a medium such as this. However, look at one simple fact. There has been THREE recalls to "fix" the SBC problems and the cars are not even 4 years old. Worse still, as the bulk of the cars approach to 70-80,000 mile and they land up as second hand cars, we will see an avalance of problems. If and when that happens, those who havn't had brake failure will have heart failure......from the deeply depressed value of the cars.
And last but not least, if I was down in sunny Claifornia or you come up here in polar bear country, I would gladly buy you a coffee and show you my invoices. Bring your Harley, it's been a million year since I road a bilke.
HOH, you are right, this is the internet and not everything is what it appears to be. However, most people on these forums tend to be on the level. Sure, they may add a miles or two to their gas mileage (I get 78 mpg :p ) but all in all, most people don't come on to these boards with an agenda.
As for conspirecies.....
I was told by THREE people in Mercedes upper eschelon that they have NEVER replaced SBC units and none have ever failed other them mine. I know this to be a bare faced lie. I don't want to get any people working for a living in Mercedes to get into trouble but let's just say that "Deep Throats" told me that about a dozen units have been replaced in 2003's. A second "Deep Throats" in another dealership also said that several SBC units were replaced. No year specified. It seems that those upper management people I spoke to had short memories.
Is the ratio of cars to defective units high? What's "high" or more corectly, what's "low" when lives are at stake? We are not really privy to the real "failure rate" info from Mercedes and they obviously have a damn good reason not to disclose anything. After all, reputations take decades to create and they could be lost in weeks/months. It would take a court order and a hundred lawyers to get that kind of information out of Mercedes about brake failures. No magazine or newspaper is going to enter Mercedes headquarters and just be given whatever they need to write a story about failing brakes. Car companies are not suicidal. After all, EVERY car company has a legion of public relation people whose ONLY job is to make the company look good.
Is this a "minor" problem. Not at all. A car company NEVER, EVER had a recall for no reason, or even minor or trivial reason. Even a small recall cost tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars and eats away at the companies reputation. Particularly a company that prides itself in engineering and safety like Mercedes. Believe me, as an owner of manufacturing companies, it's no fun to watch your bottom line shrivel away at some quality problem that you have to fix/replace way after the sale was already made.
Bottom line.....
You have the right to believe anything you like. Scepticism is healthy in a medium such as this. However, look at one simple fact. There has been THREE recalls to "fix" the SBC problems and the cars are not even 4 years old. Worse still, as the bulk of the cars approach to 70-80,000 mile and they land up as second hand cars, we will see an avalance of problems. If and when that happens, those who havn't had brake failure will have heart failure......from the deeply depressed value of the cars.
And last but not least, if I was down in sunny Claifornia or you come up here in polar bear country, I would gladly buy you a coffee and show you my invoices. Bring your Harley, it's been a million year since I road a bilke.
Spartin, With all due respect bro, and hope you don't take this the wrong way but, If I felt my life was in danger and the MB gods told me that they were replacing SBC units like their shorts, there would be no way I'd be driving a MB with the SBC system.... I can't understand why your putting your life in MBs hands???? Recalls or not, I like the system and it works great for my applications, I can't say enough about the system and my opinions are based on real life experiences (unlike others), but this forum will be the first to know when and if some goes wrong and I live to tell about it...
12-20-2005, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
Spartin, With all due respect bro, and hope you don't take this the wrong way but, If I felt my life was in danger and the MB gods told me that they were replacing SBC units like their shorts, there would be no way I'd be driving a MB with the SBC system.... I can't understand why your putting your life in MBs hands???? Recalls or not, I like the system and it works great for my applications, I can't say enough about the system and my opinions are based on real life experiences (unlike others), but this forum will be the first to know when and if some goes wrong and I live to tell about it...
12-20-2005, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Spartan
I had the option of getting my money back or any other car, Mercedes or other make, of equal value, ANYWHERE in their system and I still chose the CDI. Like you, I really love the car but I no longer place blind faith in Mercedes.
12-20-2005, 03:30 PM
#85
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[QUOTE=mleskovar]
Autoweek 12/8:
"With the ESP Premium (vehicle stability system), we have all SBC functions in a conventional system."
Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
Hopefully MB will take all the features supposedly offered by SBC and either incorporate them in the current systems or produce a more reliable, cheaper, quiet, easier to maintain, longer lived, brake system.
"With the ESP Premium (vehicle stability system), we have all SBC functions in a conventional system."
12-20-2005, 03:37 PM
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2011 E550, 2013 GLK
Here's the difference.
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/sbc2.jpg
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/sbc2.jpg
12-20-2005, 04:57 PM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
[QUOTE=mleskovar]
balderdash! The SBC system has full and independent control over each brake separately! The ESP modulates the brakes and power, of the engine which in our case, adds to the safety of SBC, but there is no way that ESP can apply brakes to one wheel only as in the case of SBC.. read the link that I posted, and that Bud just re-posted...
SBC is added safety, like it or not... unless you are telling me that MB us going to install 4 separate vacuum pumps to modulate all 4 disks separately, the removal of SBC is a minus in the column of safety.
The correct thing to do for MB (and more expensive thing) would have been to add a better failsafe system so that if SBC should fail (odds against it greatly on '05 and newer cars, and recall cars), the driver has better back up braking power.
Also, SBC is LIGHTER than vacuum assist systems, to answer a prior post of yours.
ON A SEPARATE NOTE:
I just left the office of Mike Stoops, my Service Advisor at Schumacher MB, and btw, he's a great guy and did all he can to understand the recall, and even gave me the 35 page recall instructions... (Dan, if you want them, email me your fax again, and I'll fax them over)..
The bracket in question is not the primary part of this recall, but rather a change made along the way for the '06 model cars.. my car is (according to their VMI) not affected and based on what I've seen from the recall (lengthy harness related work) I believe this.. but still wonder why MB doesn't want to retrofit my car with the Bracket.. there is apparantly a conscious reason that they don't. I placed a call (and left a voice mail) for MBUSA's technical dept to see if they can better explain it to me.. but for now, I'm confident in my SBC.
On a side note, there was a 2005 SL in the shop at Schumacher that had a serial number falling inside the range of the recall that also didn't need any work done as per the VMI, so my car isn't alone.
My attitude is, if the engineers at MB know that my SBC pump is good as it is, I don't need some low level mechanic playing around with it for no good reason.
Originally Posted by mleskovar
Autoweek 12/8:
"With the ESP Premium (vehicle stability system), we have all SBC functions in a conventional system."
"With the ESP Premium (vehicle stability system), we have all SBC functions in a conventional system."
SBC is added safety, like it or not... unless you are telling me that MB us going to install 4 separate vacuum pumps to modulate all 4 disks separately, the removal of SBC is a minus in the column of safety.
The correct thing to do for MB (and more expensive thing) would have been to add a better failsafe system so that if SBC should fail (odds against it greatly on '05 and newer cars, and recall cars), the driver has better back up braking power.
Also, SBC is LIGHTER than vacuum assist systems, to answer a prior post of yours.
ON A SEPARATE NOTE:
I just left the office of Mike Stoops, my Service Advisor at Schumacher MB, and btw, he's a great guy and did all he can to understand the recall, and even gave me the 35 page recall instructions... (Dan, if you want them, email me your fax again, and I'll fax them over)..
The bracket in question is not the primary part of this recall, but rather a change made along the way for the '06 model cars.. my car is (according to their VMI) not affected and based on what I've seen from the recall (lengthy harness related work) I believe this.. but still wonder why MB doesn't want to retrofit my car with the Bracket.. there is apparantly a conscious reason that they don't. I placed a call (and left a voice mail) for MBUSA's technical dept to see if they can better explain it to me.. but for now, I'm confident in my SBC.
On a side note, there was a 2005 SL in the shop at Schumacher that had a serial number falling inside the range of the recall that also didn't need any work done as per the VMI, so my car isn't alone.
My attitude is, if the engineers at MB know that my SBC pump is good as it is, I don't need some low level mechanic playing around with it for no good reason.
Last edited by CE750; 12-20-2005 at 05:01 PM.
12-20-2005, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CE750
gave me the 35 page recall instructions... (Dan, if you want them, email me your fax again, and I'll fax them over)
Sam, I'm still not buying what they’re telling you – a change made along the way.
- Recall covers 2003-2005 (Bud has a ’04)
As far as the bracket not being a primary part of this recall the first page of the bulletin specifically states:
- SUBJECT: Installation of ground wires and bracket to SBC wiring harness
- SBC may shift to the hydraulic back up due to the loosening of the ground wire harness connection over time
- Pages 3, 10, 11, 12, and quality assurance pages 13, 14
BTW did they write you up for the visit meaning invoice and explanation or, at the very least, SBC recall – no trouble found.
12-20-2005, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by konigstiger
Thanks, I already have a copy.
Sam, I'm still not buying what they’re telling you – a change made along the way.
- Recall covers 2003-2005 (Bud has a ’04)
As far as the bracket not being a primary part of this recall the first page of the bulletin specifically states:
- SUBJECT: Installation of ground wires and bracket to SBC wiring harness
- SBC may shift to the hydraulic back up due to the loosening of the ground wire harness connection over time
- Pages 3, 10, 11, 12, and quality assurance pages 13, 14
BTW did they write you up for the visit meaning invoice and explanation or, at the very least, SBC recall – no trouble found.
Sam, I'm still not buying what they’re telling you – a change made along the way.
- Recall covers 2003-2005 (Bud has a ’04)
As far as the bracket not being a primary part of this recall the first page of the bulletin specifically states:
- SUBJECT: Installation of ground wires and bracket to SBC wiring harness
- SBC may shift to the hydraulic back up due to the loosening of the ground wire harness connection over time
- Pages 3, 10, 11, 12, and quality assurance pages 13, 14
BTW did they write you up for the visit meaning invoice and explanation or, at the very least, SBC recall – no trouble found.
I also have an inquiry with MBUSA.. will report back on that.. when (if) they call me back.
Dan, if you have any good emails for DCAG, please email me with them.
12-20-2005, 05:57 PM
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I hesitate to jump in here since I have left the W211 fold and now own a
C350. The comment about the ESP not being able to brake one wheel is not correct according to my C350 manual. "The ESP recognizes when a wheel is spinning or if the vehicle starts to skid, by applying brakes to the appropriate wheel and by limiting the engine output, the ESP works to stabalize the vehicle." Let's not confuse the function of ESP with ABS which merely pumps the brakes to help in stopping.
I have owned a 2004 E500, 2005 E320 CDI and 2006 E350 so am not a total stranger to the W211 forum. I was never completely happy with the feel and sounds from the SBC system but I for one recognize it is probably the most effective brake system ever produced.a wheel,
C350. The comment about the ESP not being able to brake one wheel is not correct according to my C350 manual. "The ESP recognizes when a wheel is spinning or if the vehicle starts to skid, by applying brakes to the appropriate wheel and by limiting the engine output, the ESP works to stabalize the vehicle." Let's not confuse the function of ESP with ABS which merely pumps the brakes to help in stopping.
I have owned a 2004 E500, 2005 E320 CDI and 2006 E350 so am not a total stranger to the W211 forum. I was never completely happy with the feel and sounds from the SBC system but I for one recognize it is probably the most effective brake system ever produced.a wheel,
12-20-2005, 07:12 PM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by MB-JIM
I hesitate to jump in here since I have left the W211 fold and now own a
C350. The comment about the ESP not being able to brake one wheel is not correct according to my C350 manual. "The ESP recognizes when a wheel is spinning or if the vehicle starts to skid, by applying brakes to the appropriate wheel and by limiting the engine output, the ESP works to stabalize the vehicle." Let's not confuse the function of ESP with ABS which merely pumps the brakes to help in stopping. [/COLOR]
C350. The comment about the ESP not being able to brake one wheel is not correct according to my C350 manual. "The ESP recognizes when a wheel is spinning or if the vehicle starts to skid, by applying brakes to the appropriate wheel and by limiting the engine output, the ESP works to stabalize the vehicle." Let's not confuse the function of ESP with ABS which merely pumps the brakes to help in stopping. [/COLOR]
right, ESP "limits the engine output" and brakes (a set of wheels) is the way I understand it..
here is a bit on the M-class version... read it, and see how it refers to the braking of a "Set of wheels" the SBC allows for 4-way control that ESP with traditional vacuum assist cannot do.. that is how I understand it.
http://www.4x4abc.com/ML320/ml320_ESP.html
12-20-2005, 08:08 PM
#93
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[QUOTE=CE750]
balderdash! The SBC system has full and independent control over each brake separately! The ESP modulates the brakes and power, of the engine which in our case, adds to the safety of SBC, but there is no way that ESP can apply brakes to one wheel only as in the case of SBC.. read the link that I posted, and that Bud just re-posted...
SBC is added safety, like it or not... unless you are telling me that MB us going to install 4 separate vacuum pumps to modulate all 4 disks separately, the removal of SBC is a minus in the column of safety.
The correct thing to do for MB (and more expensive thing) would have been to add a better failsafe system so that if SBC should fail (odds against it greatly on '05 and newer cars, and recall cars), the driver has better back up braking power.
Also, SBC is LIGHTER than vacuum assist systems, to answer a prior post of yours.
.
ESP Premium is the follow up to ESP. The article in Autoweek explained that MB is discontinuing SBC and replacing it with ESP Premium....all the features of SBC with a vacuum assisted , foot controlled, ancient technology, hydraulic cylinder. They are doing the correct thing which they should have done from the beginning like I keep saying over and over. As far as the weight goes I believe you forgot to add the weight of the required back up battery and all the associated wiring....or am I wrong?
Originally Posted by mleskovar
balderdash! The SBC system has full and independent control over each brake separately! The ESP modulates the brakes and power, of the engine which in our case, adds to the safety of SBC, but there is no way that ESP can apply brakes to one wheel only as in the case of SBC.. read the link that I posted, and that Bud just re-posted...
SBC is added safety, like it or not... unless you are telling me that MB us going to install 4 separate vacuum pumps to modulate all 4 disks separately, the removal of SBC is a minus in the column of safety.
The correct thing to do for MB (and more expensive thing) would have been to add a better failsafe system so that if SBC should fail (odds against it greatly on '05 and newer cars, and recall cars), the driver has better back up braking power.
Also, SBC is LIGHTER than vacuum assist systems, to answer a prior post of yours.
.
12-20-2005, 11:19 PM
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mleskovar,
I find it interesting that you are still truly convinced that the SBC system is inferior. I am by no means an ignorant person, especially when it comes to cars, and I think that you need to drive a car equipped with SBC before you flame the system.
MB has discontinued many things on the W211s and I see no one jumping to conclusions like you do. I could say that the "rest" feature was discontinued because it was draining the battery (which is false), I could say that the lights under the side mirrors were removed because people were blinded by them (also false). We could also say that the heated and cooled storage compartment was also discontinued because people’s candy bars were melted and they sued!
MB has unfortunately been cost cutting and I truly believe that the SBC has fallen victim to that along with all the features I mentioned above. Until you can actually substantiate your opinions that you are loosely stating as facts, please go back to the C class forum.
I can personally tell you that I would not be driving this car on windy, downhill, mountain roads if I ever thought that my brakes were going to fail on me! Also, there is NO OTHER CAR that stops on snow and ice like my SBC equipped E class. Because the SBC can truly regulate each wheel completely individually, the stopping is incredible! I don't care is the ESP turns on or not, this car has earned my trust in slippery situations. I have also had to really step on the brakes and I have been AMAZED at how quickly the system has reacted and stopped my car! This brake assist is much stronger than what I am used to from Porsche or Audi.
Seriously, they say that you can’t be a captain of a ship if you are on onboard, so don't start judging the SBC since your ship does not have it and you don't use it on a regular basis!
Steve
I find it interesting that you are still truly convinced that the SBC system is inferior. I am by no means an ignorant person, especially when it comes to cars, and I think that you need to drive a car equipped with SBC before you flame the system.
MB has discontinued many things on the W211s and I see no one jumping to conclusions like you do. I could say that the "rest" feature was discontinued because it was draining the battery (which is false), I could say that the lights under the side mirrors were removed because people were blinded by them (also false). We could also say that the heated and cooled storage compartment was also discontinued because people’s candy bars were melted and they sued!
MB has unfortunately been cost cutting and I truly believe that the SBC has fallen victim to that along with all the features I mentioned above. Until you can actually substantiate your opinions that you are loosely stating as facts, please go back to the C class forum.
I can personally tell you that I would not be driving this car on windy, downhill, mountain roads if I ever thought that my brakes were going to fail on me! Also, there is NO OTHER CAR that stops on snow and ice like my SBC equipped E class. Because the SBC can truly regulate each wheel completely individually, the stopping is incredible! I don't care is the ESP turns on or not, this car has earned my trust in slippery situations. I have also had to really step on the brakes and I have been AMAZED at how quickly the system has reacted and stopped my car! This brake assist is much stronger than what I am used to from Porsche or Audi.
Seriously, they say that you can’t be a captain of a ship if you are on onboard, so don't start judging the SBC since your ship does not have it and you don't use it on a regular basis!
Steve
12-20-2005, 11:40 PM
#95
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Mark my words..
SBC (or it's offspring) will be in your future MB, Audi, Lexus, etc.. cars before 2010....
They did the same thing with aircraft like the Airbus A320 went to FBW (fly-by-wire) and now even Boeing is FWB... technology will progress.
SBC (or it's offspring) will be in your future MB, Audi, Lexus, etc.. cars before 2010....
They did the same thing with aircraft like the Airbus A320 went to FBW (fly-by-wire) and now even Boeing is FWB... technology will progress.
12-20-2005, 11:41 PM
#96
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
It's also worth noting that ALL of MB's flagship cars (except the new S now) had SBC..
Maybach, SL, and SLR but to name the big 3.
Maybach, SL, and SLR but to name the big 3.
12-21-2005, 12:07 AM
#97
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally Posted by SAguirre
mleskovar,
I find it interesting that you are still truly convinced that the SBC system is inferior. I am by no means an ignorant person, especially when it comes to cars, and I think that you need to drive a car equipped with SBC before you flame the system.
MB has discontinued many things on the W211s and I see no one jumping to conclusions like you do. I could say that the "rest" feature was discontinued because it was draining the battery (which is false), I could say that the lights under the side mirrors were removed because people were blinded by them (also false). We could also say that the heated and cooled storage compartment was also discontinued because people’s candy bars were melted and they sued!
MB has unfortunately been cost cutting and I truly believe that the SBC has fallen victim to that along with all the features I mentioned above. Until you can actually substantiate your opinions that you are loosely stating as facts, please go back to the C class forum.
I can personally tell you that I would not be driving this car on windy, downhill, mountain roads if I ever thought that my brakes were going to fail on me! Also, there is NO OTHER CAR that stops on snow and ice like my SBC equipped E class. Because the SBC can truly regulate each wheel completely individually, the stopping is incredible! I don't care is the ESP turns on or not, this car has earned my trust in slippery situations. I have also had to really step on the brakes and I have been AMAZED at how quickly the system has reacted and stopped my car! This brake assist is much stronger than what I am used to from Porsche or Audi.
Seriously, they say that you can’t be a captain of a ship if you are on onboard, so don't start judging the SBC since your ship does not have it and you don't use it on a regular basis!
Steve
I find it interesting that you are still truly convinced that the SBC system is inferior. I am by no means an ignorant person, especially when it comes to cars, and I think that you need to drive a car equipped with SBC before you flame the system.
MB has discontinued many things on the W211s and I see no one jumping to conclusions like you do. I could say that the "rest" feature was discontinued because it was draining the battery (which is false), I could say that the lights under the side mirrors were removed because people were blinded by them (also false). We could also say that the heated and cooled storage compartment was also discontinued because people’s candy bars were melted and they sued!
MB has unfortunately been cost cutting and I truly believe that the SBC has fallen victim to that along with all the features I mentioned above. Until you can actually substantiate your opinions that you are loosely stating as facts, please go back to the C class forum.
I can personally tell you that I would not be driving this car on windy, downhill, mountain roads if I ever thought that my brakes were going to fail on me! Also, there is NO OTHER CAR that stops on snow and ice like my SBC equipped E class. Because the SBC can truly regulate each wheel completely individually, the stopping is incredible! I don't care is the ESP turns on or not, this car has earned my trust in slippery situations. I have also had to really step on the brakes and I have been AMAZED at how quickly the system has reacted and stopped my car! This brake assist is much stronger than what I am used to from Porsche or Audi.
Seriously, they say that you can’t be a captain of a ship if you are on onboard, so don't start judging the SBC since your ship does not have it and you don't use it on a regular basis!
Steve
Last edited by mleskovar; 12-21-2005 at 12:22 AM.
12-21-2005, 02:54 AM
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06 320E CDI, Porsche 911 C2, Pontiac Montana
Originally Posted by SAguirre
mleskovar,
Seriously, they say that you can’t be a captain of a ship if you are on onboard,
Steve
Seriously, they say that you can’t be a captain of a ship if you are on onboard,
Steve
I wouldn't have a single complaunt about failed SBC's if they had a better back up system. Even four wheel braking on the bottom third of the pedal is way better then front only brakes on the last tenth of the pedal.
12-21-2005, 03:29 AM
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04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Originally Posted by mleskovar
I have driven an SBC equipped E500. It stopped no better, or no worst than my C320 .
I did not feel anything special in the stopping experience.
I did panic/turning/straight slow and fast stops and it worked well. It worked as well as all the other E series I have driven.
The rain and stop and go hold features don't impress me enough to ...here I say it again....put up with the baggage. And since we're talking technology the statistics are important so 'feels better' and 'gives me a warm fuzzy' don't count. 1 millisecond improvement in response time is nothing if reliabilty is reduced.
“It stopped no better or worse than your C320”! How did you actually get to test this? Once again your personal feeling after a bit of driving an E500 must be total fact and Mercedes Benz developed the SBC system for the SL, E and the CLS for no added benefit. I guess that they need to talk to you before they develop their next system.
You did not feel anything significant in the stopping distance? Well, imagine that? You can’t tell the difference if you only drive a W211 for a little test drive. But I guess you are extrapolating your personal experience so now they apply to all circumstances. So of course you must be 100% correct and you have once again single-handedly proven all MB engineers to be fools.
“I did panic/turning/straight slow and fast stops and it worked well. It worked as well as all the other E series I have driven.” So I guess you have also done this on snow and ice driving on mountain roads when you have had to avoid deer, like I have. Judging by this argument you are one of those who says that ALL red wines taste the same. So my W211 stops no better than my other E-class did, my 1991 300E? Come on! Read what you are writing aloud and listen to what you are sound like. It might shock you. All Es don’t stop the same! Even with SBC. There are tons of different rotor and caliper variations, but I guess you have driven them all. Or wait a minute, al the ones you have driven have had the same exact brake setup and now you know how all other W211s will stop. An E55 will be the same as an E200 taxi.
So we all know that these SBC features don’t impress you. I have not had any baggage to deal with on my SBC system. Yet you seem to think that baggage is the correct term for it. I have never taken the car in because of an SBC update. The software reprogram and the customer-demanded pulsation damper were both done while routine service was being performed. So once again, you are assuming that all of us W211 owners are panicked when we hear about something like this and we speed to the dealer to get the SBC system serviced. I have not worried about the SBC one bit since I got the car, but I am glad that you have done enough worrying for all of us.
Nothing you have stated yet has been factual. Please feel free to point out where one thing you have stated was because if you have stated facts I must have missed them. So to quote you again: “And since we're talking technology the statistics are important so 'feels better' and 'gives me a warm fuzzy' don't count.” I have not said anything about “warm fuzzies” but you seem to think that this valid point you bring up does not apply to you. I guess that “baggage” as a term does not fit in the same league of words as “warm fuzzy.” I guess you have acquired poetic license on this thread.
“1 millisecond improvement in response time is nothing if reliabilty is reduced.” What in the world made you think that my praise of the SBC system is only about its millisecond better reaction time? Once again, you are generalizing this to its maximum and proving your incapability to understand this system. I have previously stated that the SBC has let me stop very quickly and IN CONTROL on snow and icy roads that are curved. This can be measured in other units instead of milliseconds. I can simply say that the SBC stopped my in time to avoid the animal and kept my car on the road. But I guess this is not good enough for you, so I will leave it at that. I only have 13,600 miles on my SBC system and you must have much more experience, even though your arguments are not holding any water.
State the facts, don’t say that all Es stop in the same way and that what little testing you have done can even equate to real-world scenarios. These statements that you are making are very uneducated and are spoken without true real-world experience. You even stated that the SBC was made for only two years (what you said is on the post earlier on this thread) H on a H corrected you, but he did not include the fact that the SBC W211 was introduced in late 2001 as a 2002 model in Germany and that the SL models had the SBC a year or so before it went over to the W211. This statement proves your depth of knowledge in this field. But you don’t concede to this and you just keep on getting in deeper into this SBC debate that you are brutally wrong about.
It is a real shame that all the instances were the SBC has saved lives and avoided accidents will never be known. However, I am certain that they have done this where other non SBC systems would not be able too. In the mean time, bad news always travels faster than good news.
Have a nice one,
Steve
12-21-2005, 10:11 AM
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Some MBs & Bimmers
Originally Posted by Spartan
LOL! You had me scratching my bald spot for a second. You mean "you can’t be a captain of a ship if you are NOT onboard".
I wouldn't have a single complaunt about failed SBC's if they had a better back up system. Even four wheel braking on the bottom third of the pedal is way better then front only brakes on the last tenth of the pedal.
I wouldn't have a single complaunt about failed SBC's if they had a better back up system. Even four wheel braking on the bottom third of the pedal is way better then front only brakes on the last tenth of the pedal.
A braking system should be rated as a complete system (SBC and backup). MB should not have introduced a STATE of the ART primary braking system and provide some 3rd rate back up braking system.
Like I said before, I love my W211 and I sincerely believe SBC does work but once I experienced my brake failure, perception changed. For you die hards, I pray you will NEVER have to experience it.
Not to change the subject. Last year, I was invited to sit tandom with a racing legend, Michael Andretti on the Fontana racetrack. The race sponsor took a open wheel race car and added a passenger tub behind the driver. I sat behind Michael while he lapped at top speed 210 mph and 6Gs at the turns. Was I afraid? Absolutely but I placed my faith in Michael as I sincerely felt he knew what he was doing.
Why we buy MBs ? For one big reason, they are supposedly very well built, reliable and safe cars and we put faith in MBs to deliver that. Brake system failures will definitely undermind that faith.
