SZMB

I have been using Mobil 1 synthetic in BMWs and MBs (w/ oil change intervals every 7k mi) for the past 12 years and very happy with the result. I have also been using Redline ATF D4 and gear oil but has never used Redline motor oil because of its high price tag of $11/qtr. A lot of great of reviews have been posted about the Redline motor oil, and people were raving about its performance. The 2004 E500 has 70k mi and the 2003 530i 110k mi, and both cars have always been running very smooth and strong. I didn't see any reason for using a $11/qtr Redline 5W/30. Just over last weekend, I thought, what the heck, I really wanted to try out the Redline 5W/30 and see for myself. The cars were already running very smooth, how much more improvement can I get out of this new oil? So after putting in Redline 5W/30 and driving them for about 200 miles on both cars, oh boy, what a difference! The engines idle super smooth, just like new engines; acceleration is super smooth and quiet. I don't think the average driver would be able to tell the difference between using Mobil 1 and Redline, but I'm very sensitive to any imperfections that the cars may have. To me, using Redline is a big improvement over Mobil 1. I think it may even help the car getting better fuel economy. If you're looking for that extra edge in your engine, I think Redline is worth the money.

220S

Some folks are absolutely convinced that a particular vitamin pill rejuvenated their life. Or that their choice of coffee beans are the finest ever grown, etc..

It's interesting how the human brain works

paulv

Did you do any UOA's, and if you did, could you please post something recent. Thx.

Regards,
paul...

bchalou

That test looks like it was done in 95, are there any recent tests out there?

SZMB

What's UOA? I changed the valve cover gaskets on both cars recently, and found that all the mechanical parts under the valve cover are sparkingly clean. So no problem with sludge or engine wear using Mobil-1.

sosh

Sounds like "snake oil" to me. Is it MB approved?? There are hundreds of thousands of cars out there with much more mileage running on the approved oils. Do not believe a word of what you say with regards to running smoother with this oil. Either you have a vivid imagination or your post in some way is self serving.

SZMB

Interesting data. I've seen this chart a while back. This chart provides one set of data point -- wear and tear, and nothing else. Its data point is only based on one hour of running the engine and does not say which engine it's running in. If it's a low performance car like a Toyota Corolla, I don't think the oils would make any difference. But BMW and MB engines tend to run very hot with high compression ratio, and they love to rev to high RPM. It's very possible that different oils could yield slightly different performance in these engines.
I have used all kinds of oils in the past, and none resulted in engine failures as long oil change intervals are reasonable. Mobil-1 provides great protection for engine wear, I'm 100% for this oil. What I'm saying is that Redline makes my engines run smoother and quieter (now, that could be subjective, depending on how picky you're)-- I'm not saying that Redline produces less wear. If engine wear is my only concern, I would just stick w/ Mobil-1. All I wanted to see if Redline makes my cars running smoother and quieter. These days, pretty much any name brand oil provides great protection for engine wear. It would be good information if the indepedent lab runs different oils on a high mileage car and records the fuel economy, amount of contaminants (i.e. oil analysis after 5k, 7k and 10k mi of driving), and engine noise in terms of decibel and noise frequency spectrum. Engine wear is a thing of the past.

paulv

UOA = Used Oil Analysis - these are good for trending wear as well as seeing how the oil is holding up -- they are not a total analysis and have limitations (can't expect much for ~ $25!).

I've heard from other people that Redline makes their engine smoother and quieter, but this also may be subjective. As far as Amsoil goes, I don't know why they use ASTM D4172 since that's a gear oil test and not a crankcase oil test! They do boost their additive packages with focus on long drain intervals, but if an engine has a [significant] fuel dilution problem, then the long drain interval won't be realized due to the oil having to be replaced sooner. This is where a UOA would help to determine the interval.

Here's some ASTM D4172 info:

Four Ball Wear Test ASTM D4172
The Four Ball Wear Test ASTM D4172 evaluates an industrial gear lubricant’s wear-preventing properties in steel-on-steel sliding conditions. This test is not intended to predict wear characteristics with other metal combinations other than steel-on-steel and does not measure the extreme pressure characteristics of the industrial gear lubricant. The Four Ball Wear Test ASTM D4172 utilizes the same test apparatus and set-up as the Four Ball Extreme Pressure Test ASTM D2783. The test is run at 1,200 rpm under a 40 kgf load at 167ºF (75ºC) for one hour. After the one-hour test period, the three stationary ***** are washed and the wear scars are measured to the nearest 0.1 mm. Another set of measurements across each scar, 90 degrees from the first, is then made. The average of the six measured scars in millimeters is reported as the average scar diameter.
The lower the scar diameter, the higher the level of wear protection the industrial gear lubricant will provide under sliding conditions. When comparing the capabilities of industrial gear lubricants, the results obtained in both the ASTM D2783 Four Ball EP and the ASTM D4172 Four Ball Wear Test should be considered. Some industrial gear lubricants that have good extreme pressure properties may not be effective in reducing wear rates at lower loads.


Regards,
paul...

lkchris

If it doesn't have Mercedes MB229.5 or 229.51 printed on the bottle, it isn't suitable for your car.

Why is this so difficult?

sosh

Some people do not read or listen. Eventually they or the next owner of the car will pay the price. Its not difficult but some people are just thick.

SZMB

There are always alternatives to almost everything. If you don't free up your mind to the possibilities/alternatives, you'll never able to learn new things in life, and yes, that may include blowing up things in the process. MB has not approved or approved a lot of things, nor it's in their interest to do extensive research in 3rd party materials. I'm not endorsing Redline or working for Redline.

sosh

I have learned lots from life and I can pretty much assure you that I have more years at it than you. What I have learned first and formost is to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer who has spent lots coming up with them so their customers can get the best out of their product. Their suggestion does give you lots of choices. If the guy using this snake oil was a petrolium engineer and had substanciated data I might feel differently but he does not and its his car and its likely he will pay for his actions down the road or perhaps the next owner will.

220S

SZMB, just so you know, I was being sort of tongue in cheek in my earlier post.

But the point being is that modern oils are of high quality and using a much higher priced somewhat esoteric oil in your car is doubtful to make any real difference in the end. The human mind has a lot to do with it (we can convince ourselves we like something until we take a blindfolded taste test, etc..) There's also the reality of the kind of car you own and they type of driving you do (generic MB motors, not specialty built motors for the track, etc..)

If you're happy with the oil, then that's fine. Although I seriously doubt it will make a difference for your car; but your psychological well-being is certainly worth something. There's the thought, and then there's reality. But again, we all make choices that work for us as individuals.

As someone mention already, I would highly recommend a UOA each time you do a change for the next three changes or so. That's the only way you will ever know how your oil is really performing in your car under your driving style and conditions. If you write to Blackstone, they'll send you a free kit. They have all the TBNs of the major oils currently available. Then you can compare your UOA with the VOA. And that way you can decisively determine the best OCI for you.

I'm super sensitive (or at least I convince myself that I am) to all three of my cars' performance. I have a E63 AMG, a E46 330i, and a 993 C4S. I do UOAs for both and keep them all super well maintained. I've stuck with Mobil 1 on the AMG strictly to adhere to MB's recommendations (warranty; don't want any issues from MBUSA right now; motor has only 14k on it.) But I've tried many different oils in the Porsche and BMW.

No difference in mpg, or performance, noise, etc., with different oils. And all the oils (Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, Motul) have looked fine under my OCI schedule. fwiw, I even used Brad Penn dino oil (from the same pool that Kendall was once produced out of) in another 993 that I had done a rebuild on (Penn is great break-in oil, and also racing oil for cars w/o cats.)

fwiw, this guy is highly respected in the Porsche world (I had some Nickies he built), and what he says about oil is a good read, imho: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

p.s., Blackstone isn't the only option. LN also does UOAs: http://www.lnengineering.com/oiltesting.html

SZMB

220s,
Points are well taken. I don’t recommend people to buy the expensive “high-end” oils and expect massive or even noticeable improvement in performance or noise. All NEW engines of a particular model sound the same, but as they age with mileage, they tend to develop and generate their own unique sound and noises due to different mechanical parts wear differently and at different rate. Since I drive the car everyday over a number of years, I tend to be very sensitive to its sound, noise and how it accelerates. If I put Mobil-1 or Redline in another car that I’m not familiar with, I don’t think I will be able to tell the difference. In a low mileage car, I don’t think I can tell the difference either since every part is still like new or in perfect condition. I’m talking about very sutble differences in performance in a high mileage high-performance car that I'm familiar with. For the average non-picky drivers, I don’t recommend wasting money in “high-end” oils; just change the oil regularly and you’ll be fine.

220S

Yep, and the bottom line is use what makes you sleep best at night.

Redline and Motul are excellent group V synthetics with extended OCIs. But they're very expensive. For high performance cars that you'd be tracking or running 1/4 miles, then okay why not. Or maybe if you live in super extreme climates and run rallies in the deserts. But in a passenger car like the 500/550 MB it's a waste of money, imho. They aren't exactly high performance motors (relatively speaking.)

My 993 with its dry sump takes 11 quarts of oil. That's a lot of money in oil for Redline (or Motul.) And personally, unless maybe it was only used as a dedicated track car, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me (and then it would be even more expensive since OCIs would have to be even shorter.) And I've run those oils but with no real performance benefits to ever warrant the expense.

Anyway, even group III oils are arguably better for most passenger cars dollar-for-dollar. Depending on the group III stock used, results may be indistinguishable from a group IV or V. If there is a real difference, it would be primarily with the pour points which are below most normal requirements but still higher than a V or IV. So, only if you need to start a motor in the frozen tundra, otherwise a III is fine for a DD.

Mobil 1 is a super high quality Group IV PAO synthetic. And it's used in tons of high performance motors. And it's produced in a quantity that allows it to be priced well; not from a small company that runs small batches using ester which is more expensive to design as a lube.

But I just seriously doubt that you really notice the performance difference between Redline Ester Group V and Mobil 1 PAO Group IV. Maybe better long term bonding (but that's really longevity than performance.) Maybe the sound you're hearing is the supposed quicker bonding of ester before full warm-up(?) But chemists debate the pros and cons of PAO versus ester in automotive lubricants. So it's somewhat moot. Ester versus PAO is really more a marketing game, imho.

And the problem is how much content in labeled synthetics is really there? Synthetic labeling is notoriously suspect in the industry.

How can you empirically know for certain it's only the oil that's been giving you what you feel is added performance? Especially between M1 and Redline. I guess that's my question/point, or whatever. This has been a debate all over the place, not only just now on this thread.

But you can spend your $$ any way you see fit, no problemo there.

lkchris

Just so you know, MB doesn't test the oil. Rather it provides the specs to independent labs and oil manufacturers are free to have their oil tested. That is, the ball is in the oil marketers' court and the question is whether they care about the Mercedes market and whether they make an oil that meets the spec.

SZMB

220s,
I think the only way to put this "smoother and quieter" issue to rest is to run a precision audio measurement that measures the engine noise at various locations around the engine bay in the frequency spectum domain at various RPMs in a lab environment. However, the result maybe different from one car to the next, and the difference may be very small/subtle. For the average drivers, it's not worth the extra money in high-end oils.

Clinton Horn

I think motor oil is to guys as wrinkle cream is to women. You can never convince either that their "brand" is hard to evaluate. I am not knocking Redline , Amsoil etc. I bought a gallon of Redline Kart oil that was almost $50 to keep a $250 hobby motor from coming unglued. Still if Mobil 1 is not pricey enough for you, there is always someone out there to fill a vacuum. I dont think the average engine which lives 98% of its life between 900 and 2500 rpm needs anything that sophisticated. My take is that the extended life oil / filters are expensive because they require less frequent changing. Even if they were cheap to produce, no marketing man worth his Cole Hahns would miss an opportunity to make up the difference. If you really want exhaustive studies, find some military specs on the stuff, those guys have been screwed on so much stuff, I would wager that they have a phone book on lubricating oil specs. Course you may not need deuce and a half type protection.

paulv

Ain't that the truth!!!!


Regards,
paul....

220S

+1 LOL. And it's marketed the same way, too.

To make things worse, syn oil ingredients are hidden under "proprietary rights." Consumers never really know for sure what they are actually buying, other than "tests" by mfgs and indie labs (or the military as you mentioned.)

Bottom line: all modern oils are excellent quality. Use what meets your budget for your expectations and driving conditions (daily driver, track, taxi, climate, etc..) But also don't forget any possible consumer liability issues on new motors still under warranty.