The dreaded M272 Balance Shaft
08-30-2018, 10:28 PM
#576
Junior Member
I think the chances are slim that it just happens to be in time that day if the numbers are within the scope of the cam sensor housing , specifically a 1/360 (like a circle haha) . If you think it's a coincidence then I just have to disagree. I think it's going out on a limb saying it could miss or Jump a tooth on the balance shaft gear/sprocket without throwing off the timing. Really??? Over how many cycles or revolutions? Isnt that the whole point of the crank shaft indicating the cam is in time? I was not implying anything absolute. It takes 5 minutes to check this every couple weeks or months vs ripping apart your engine over a hunch. And its worth throwing a cam sensor at it first if the numbers appear to be dead center in the cam sensor housing and far less invasive. In summary, this is like getting an X ray or MRI to get a sense of what is going on before slicing open the tibiofemoral joint. You just wouldn't do that
Last edited by Travis Ceccacci; 08-30-2018 at 10:42 PM.
08-31-2018, 02:23 AM
#577
Member
Think about it, none of these cars has jumped a tooth, yet the codes are there telling you something it off! How is that possible, if there is no sensor on the balance shaft? Which I dont think there is.
The sensors are picking up enough of a difference from one cam to the other due with the extra length in the chain from the wear in the sprocket that the tensioner can not compensate for.
The sensors are picking up enough of a difference from one cam to the other due with the extra length in the chain from the wear in the sprocket that the tensioner can not compensate for.
08-31-2018, 08:33 AM
#578
Out Of Control!!
Remember. These gars have variable valve timing. The sensor is there to feed back to the ECU where the cam is so it can be adjusted. The error is telling you the ECU sees the cam at a position it is not set for. Far less than one tooth off.
The codes tend to show up at cold temps because that is when the cams need to be adjusted the most, and the system runs out of ability to adjust due to slop in the drive chain.
It has NOTHING To do with the chain jumping a tooth one day and not another.
The codes tend to show up at cold temps because that is when the cams need to be adjusted the most, and the system runs out of ability to adjust due to slop in the drive chain.
It has NOTHING To do with the chain jumping a tooth one day and not another.
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Shack1 (08-31-2018)
08-31-2018, 02:41 PM
#579
I'm a little lost on the back and fourth here.
if you have both codes and you check your timing mark's and.theyre off, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have an engine vibration.that is not mount or accessory related, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have neither of these issues drive your car and be happy. Right?
if you have both codes and you check your timing mark's and.theyre off, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have an engine vibration.that is not mount or accessory related, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have neither of these issues drive your car and be happy. Right?
08-31-2018, 06:00 PM
#580
Member
I'm a little lost on the back and fourth here.
if you have both codes and you check your timing mark's and.theyre off, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have an engine vibration.that is not mount or accessory related, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have neither of these issues drive your car and be happy. Right?
if you have both codes and you check your timing mark's and.theyre off, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have an engine vibration.that is not mount or accessory related, your balance shaft gear is toast
if you have neither of these issues drive your car and be happy. Right?
08-31-2018, 09:08 PM
#581
Certainly wouldn't be a bad idea if you have to pay someone to do the work. The shaft is cheap. No big deal to pull the engine and replace it if you have the ability to do so yourself. I do feel for those who have to find someone they can trust to do the work right and at a fair price.
08-31-2018, 10:22 PM
#582
Member
Certainly wouldn't be a bad idea if you have to pay someone to do the work. The shaft is cheap. No big deal to pull the engine and replace it if you have the ability to do so yourself. I do feel for those who have to find someone they can trust to do the work right and at a fair price.
Yeah right, something like less than 5% who own this could do the repair. I had two indy shops turn the job down due to the scope of the repair and the work space taken up for one repair.
Im very well skilled at auto repair but this is well beyond what I could do im my own garage.
08-31-2018, 10:57 PM
#583
"No big deal to pull the engine and replace it if you have the ability to do so yourself."
Yeah right, something like less than 5% who own this could do the repair. I had two indy shops turn the job down due to the scope of the repair and the work space taken up for one repair.
Im very well skilled at auto repair but this is well beyond what I could do im my own garage.
Yeah right, something like less than 5% who own this could do the repair. I had two indy shops turn the job down due to the scope of the repair and the work space taken up for one repair.
Im very well skilled at auto repair but this is well beyond what I could do im my own garage.
Fortunately for me my playground is well equipped.
08-31-2018, 10:59 PM
#584
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2008 E350 4Matic, 2011 E350 4matic
"No big deal to pull the engine and replace it if you have the ability to do so yourself."
Yeah right, something like less than 5% who own this could do the repair. I had two indy shops turn the job down due to the scope of the repair and the work space taken up for one repair.
Im very well skilled at auto repair but this is well beyond what I could do im my own garage.
Yeah right, something like less than 5% who own this could do the repair. I had two indy shops turn the job down due to the scope of the repair and the work space taken up for one repair.
Im very well skilled at auto repair but this is well beyond what I could do im my own garage.
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Shack1 (09-01-2018)
08-31-2018, 11:02 PM
#586
that's no different than the outcome of any job with unfortunate results. The fact remains, this is not a difficult engine to time.
09-01-2018, 01:28 AM
#587
Member
09-01-2018, 01:33 AM
#588
Junior Member
Mine is at 161k miles! If that balance shaft starts vibrating or engine persistently begins throwing p0016 and p0017 then I am throwing in the towel. I get you are very confident in your abilities and it never hurts to have 10,000 dollar lift with a covered work area Haha but please dont make pulling the engine sound so casual. The deepest I've dove is pulling the heads on my 4runner ( finally sold it away at 216k miles, great SUVs!). If this is a 30 hour job for a Mercedes tech then it is easy 45 hours for me. Stupid balance shaft. Soft metal for gears and and plastic pieces for performance (referring to tumbler flaps) c'mon mercedes. That is not the best or nothing!!!
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Shack1 (09-01-2018)
09-01-2018, 07:57 AM
#589
09-01-2018, 08:15 AM
#590
Mine is at 161k miles! If that balance shaft starts vibrating or engine persistently begins throwing p0016 and p0017 then I am throwing in the towel. I get you are very confident in your abilities and it never hurts to have 10,000 dollar lift with a covered work area Haha but please dont make pulling the engine sound so casual. The deepest I've dove is pulling the heads on my 4runner ( finally sold it away at 216k miles, great SUVs!). If this is a 30 hour job for a Mercedes tech then it is easy 45 hours for me. Stupid balance shaft. Soft metal for gears and and plastic pieces for performance (referring to tumbler flaps) c'mon mercedes. That is not the best or nothing!!!
Seriously though, pulling an engine isn't for everyone. But neither a lift nor a covered work area are required. Many people pull them in their driveways with nothing more than regular hand tools and a cheap hoist. Theres a guy with a mercedes channel on youtube who is regularly doing complicated repairs on the street in front of his house. Not how I would choose to do it. Well, it's been 20 years since I chose to do it that way. Lol
My point was that this particular timing repair isn't any more complicated or labor intensive than many of the same repairs on far lesser vehicles. I've got a Ford Explorer sitting around because it needs new guides. It's a total **** job that requires the engine to be pulled, special tools, and a b.s. timing setup with no keyways. Oh yeah, the "special tools" dont actually lock the crank and camshafts in the exact position they should be in. (Cam timing should not be open to interpretation) Totally doable but absolute junk to work on.
I never feel that way when working on Mercedes. Certainly frustrating in the case of the repair we're talking about here, but I know what I've got when it's done, an awesome vehicle worth having.
09-01-2018, 08:56 AM
#591
I did this repair myself on a CLS550 and posted about it. That was even easier with the idler gear instead of balance shaft but everything else was the same. I did it in garage and it took 2 months of weekend work when time allowed. No lift so lots of time on the floor.
The post about about it being easy is sort of right. Easy in the sense that every step of the process was straightforward and logical if you have been wrenching on cars for years, follow this forum, have WIS and watch the videos. It was absurdly time consuming though because so many parts had to come off and be labeled and put back perfectly. There were so many steps that could easily be messed up if not understood and followed perfectly. Three torque wrenches too.
A lot of special tools were required and I did the intake manifold flap repair at the same time. I can think of many steps that could so easily be done wrong with disastrous consequences. Stuff as simple as pinning the cam gears or that stupid black sealant going on exact locations in exact widths with only minutes of operating time. What a nightmare.
So the point about it being easy is right in a way that many other cars are way more complicated to pull the engine or to set the timing with thousands of dollars in special tools. This one sure isn’t an easy diy job for most and you better have a hell of a lot of downtime planned if you try it.
If anyone does though and is in AZ I will walk you through it. I bet I could cut 40% off my time now.
The post about about it being easy is sort of right. Easy in the sense that every step of the process was straightforward and logical if you have been wrenching on cars for years, follow this forum, have WIS and watch the videos. It was absurdly time consuming though because so many parts had to come off and be labeled and put back perfectly. There were so many steps that could easily be messed up if not understood and followed perfectly. Three torque wrenches too.
A lot of special tools were required and I did the intake manifold flap repair at the same time. I can think of many steps that could so easily be done wrong with disastrous consequences. Stuff as simple as pinning the cam gears or that stupid black sealant going on exact locations in exact widths with only minutes of operating time. What a nightmare.
So the point about it being easy is right in a way that many other cars are way more complicated to pull the engine or to set the timing with thousands of dollars in special tools. This one sure isn’t an easy diy job for most and you better have a hell of a lot of downtime planned if you try it.
If anyone does though and is in AZ I will walk you through it. I bet I could cut 40% off my time now.
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Shack1 (09-01-2018)
09-01-2018, 09:36 AM
#592
Not everyone can do this repair or any repair for that matter. This discussion obviously doesn't apply to those people.
I do feel that noone should ever have to do this or pay for it to be done as it is clearly Mercedes issue and they should repair every one they sold. Its absurd but it's just how it is.
I also dont feel any shop should need to get $5k+ for this. Three hours to get the engine out, three to disassemble, two to clean and inspect, three to reassemble, four to reinstall. Realistic numbers if you do this day in and day out. 15 hours actual time, seasoned techs will do it faster. Book time is what it should take a qualified person to do it the first time.
No reason any shop should need more than 2k to 2.5k to do this job. That explorer I referenced earlier is around $1500 +/-, 40%-60% more for the Mercedes tax should be plenty. Dont know why it's usually not. SMH
Last edited by rbpowered; 09-01-2018 at 09:41 AM.
12-28-2018, 09:57 AM
#595
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mercedes cls350
12-28-2018, 11:04 AM
#596
Senior Member
First of all if your check engine light isn’t on and you’ve got more than 110,000 miles I wouldn’t worry about this at all even 90,000 these problems usually occur between 60 and 70,000 miles . What you should do is look up Mercedes balance shaft class action suit if you can find that article it gives the Vin ranges and you can look up if your car is in that range if it is and you haven’t had any problems sell the car or cross your fingers and hope for the best
12-28-2018, 01:05 PM
#597
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2008 E350 4Matic, 2011 E350 4matic
First of all if your check engine light isn’t on and you’ve got more than 110,000 miles I wouldn’t worry about this at all even 90,000 these problems usually occur between 60 and 70,000 miles . What you should do is look up Mercedes balance shaft class action suit if you can find that article it gives the Vin ranges and you can look up if your car is in that range if it is and you haven’t had any problems sell the car or cross your fingers and hope for the best
The range is mentioned earlier in this thread by Konigstiger:
272 engine up to Serial # 30 468993 or 273 engine up 30 088611 material for the balance shaft sprocket and the timing chain guide wheel (idler) was modified on engines past these serial #s.
Use https://www.datamb.com/ to see if your engine number is in the range.
01-26-2019, 10:52 AM
#598
Junior Member
I have a 2007 W211 E350 in the affected range (30 396553) with 103,000 miles.
I've been ignoring a P0015 with the Check Engine Light that comes and goes for a while, and just replaced the passenger side exhaust magnet & sensor (figured both parts since I was already there).
But in researching the torque spec for the E8 bolts, I came across this thread and have been reading about the balance shaft issue.
Anything else I should do/look for/be aware of??
I've been ignoring a P0015 with the Check Engine Light that comes and goes for a while, and just replaced the passenger side exhaust magnet & sensor (figured both parts since I was already there).
But in researching the torque spec for the E8 bolts, I came across this thread and have been reading about the balance shaft issue.
- P0015 is straightforward, and as far as I can tell, NOT indicative of the balance shaft problem. Please tell me if this isn't true.
- The MB DTB S-B-03.30/08i includes the below (discussing what to do for "Fault Code Scenario 2: One or more of the fault codes 0059, 0060, 0063, 0064, 0271, 0272, 0275, and 0276"); should I go ahead and replace the other three magnets? If the improved magnets decreases the likelihood of the balance shaft issue...
Engines produced after serial nos. listed above are already equipped with improved camshaft adjustment solenoids (A272 051 01 77).
01-26-2019, 01:42 PM
#599
Senior Member
The smart approach like anything else depending on the weather and where you live if you’re going to get all the tools out you might as well change both sides rather than one side. Plus I mean do you really want to wonder if it was actually the other side that was the problem and you replace things that were perfectly fine unless you have the proper diagnostic tools. I plan on doing mine in the spring I have a manifold flat lever problem also I’m gonna do five things at once All for magnets take the manifold out and replace the flapper lever and put it all back together again should take me half an afternoon at the most
01-26-2019, 03:31 PM
#600
Junior Member
The smart approach like anything else depending on the weather and where you live if you’re going to get all the tools out you might as well change both sides rather than one side. Plus I mean do you really want to wonder if it was actually the other side that was the problem and you replace things that were perfectly fine unless you have the proper diagnostic tools. I plan on doing mine in the spring I have a manifold flat lever problem also I’m gonna do five things at once All for magnets take the manifold out and replace the flapper lever and put it all back together again should take me half an afternoon at the most
