rmeltz1

Centerpiece Article in today's Wall Street Journal:
"Another Glitch at Mercedes"

This may not come as a surprise to many of us who have owned several Mercedes over the years - nor is it any surprise to those of us who have experienced problems on the 211. The article quotes an MB spokesman as saying this is the price we (MBZ) pay for being leaders in innovation. While true, I want to share with each of you the perspective of *VALUE*. Value includes a number of tangibles (e.g. safety, quality, and standard features to name a few).

Three weeks ago, I bought my son a new Acura TL. It comes with ONLY one option - Navigation. Every other feature is included as *standard*. This includes every "option" I have ever had on any of my FIVE previous Mercedes (minus the new braking system under recall). I paid just about half the price of my fully loaded E500. After driving the Acura and seeing its technology ("standard" mind you), I began to question my devotion to a brand that touts innovation but offers less QUALITY and VALUE.

Footnote: I was equally impressed with several features on the Acura that Mercedes has YET to offer: including blue tooth integrated cell phones, XM Radio, DVD-A / CD 6-disk changer, voice control over things like climate and navigation. The solid feel of the Acura is wonderful although lacking the 'heavy' feel of my E500 which I rather like. For half the price, I may forego 'heavy'!

lig

Your son is a lucky guy!

I like the new TL. The only thing it needs is RWD. Other than that - there's a lot to like about it.

MBZman

Good for you! Everyone/anyone who wants to buy a Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc. over a MB please don't hesitate. I for one am sick of the constant badgering of MB, yes their quality has dropped BUT clearly they are attempting to address this problem.

Don't get me wrong, the current Acura TL gives you a tremendous 'bang for the buck' that the Germans can't, and probably will never, match.

I purchased a MB not for the three pointed star or the belief that nothing will ever go wrong, but for the total package. This would include looks, comfort, features, quality, emotion, and the way the steering wheel and in extension the whole car feels in my hands and around my body. I love to drive and wanted an automobile that complemented the type of individual I am. MB was the clear choice for me. Just because another car company comes out on top in some survey or offers a pretty touch screen doesn't mean I'm going to run out and buy it. Again, to me, emotion is the center of the driving experience.

lig

MBZman - sounds like you are getting a little "emotional" over this issue.

Can you describe the emotion that your M-B inspires in you? I agree that different cars evoke different emotions.

If I had to describe the feeling I get in my W211... it speaks to me the loudest on the freeway - it is just an excellent high speed cruiser.

I also like going out at night - wearing a suit or a tux since the car looks rather *formal* to me (B lack w/18" AMG wheels)

I've done my share of *****ing on this site about my car - but I think for $53K the car should definitely be be less troublesome.

Did you read the article from the WSJ? That statement fromt the M-B spokesman was very disappointing. Nobody here is complaining about their airbags.

Silver_Lana

This is all about expectations.
People expect MB to perform to the well marketed reputation as leader and the best.
The reality is far less than that. It is stilla fine automobile, but it just isn't what is marketed to the public.

If the Acura TL had RWD or AWD, it might be worth considering for me. The E500 4Matic which I plan to trade my C320 in for once its lease is up seems to be the best of what I want right now in a car. Sophistication, excellent technology, recognition and driving fun while looking like a million dollars.
If that changes within the next year, I will undoubtedly switch.

Oslo

How many of you guys have experienced a MB doing this: (from an Acura Board):

quote:

Last week on Wednesday, 5-19-04, my TL broke down on 395 southbound going back home from DC to Northern Virgina. At first, my check engine light came on before I got on the highway, and so I decided I was going to take it straight to the dealer. When I got on the highway, the engine started to sputter and then it shut off. I coasted to the side of the road and then restarted the car. As I tried to get off the highway, it shut off again. This time, the engine wouldn't turn over anymore and I ended up having to call roadside assistance to have it towed to the dealer. I still haven't heard from the dealer yet.

RAD

For those who haven't seen the article (the WSJ site requires a subscription):

Another Glitch at Mercedes

Recall of 140,000 U.S. Models
For Brake Trouble Compounds
Quality Issues That Plague Brand
By STEPHEN POWER
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
May 26, 2004; Page B1

Mercedes-Benz owners weary of quality problems are headed for another bump in the road.

The luxury division of DaimlerChrysler AG is preparing to notify U.S. owners of about 140,000 Mercedes passenger cars that their advanced "electrohydraulic" brake system could fail and must be brought in for service.

Touted by Mercedes three years ago as "nothing short of a revolution," the system was designed to improve braking in dangerous conditions. But it can be foiled by air bubbles that may develop in the brakes' hydraulic tank. Mercedes says the cars have a backup hydraulic system that activates the brakes if the electronic technology fails.

The U.S. recall will be announced in letters to customers over the next few weeks and is part of a wider recall affecting 680,000 E-Class and SL cars world-wide that also have the braking system, which the company calls Sensotronic. It is the biggest recall in Mercedes history and an unpleasant distraction at a time when the German company is trying to put to rest questions about quality.


The recall illustrates what has become a persistent problem for Mercedes, one of the most admired names in automobiles. In seeking to maintain its reputation as a leader in cutting-edge technologies, the company hasn't always been able to deliver the innovation it promised, or found that customers didn't always appreciate the improvements.

Last July, for example, Mercedes took the unusual step of offering new cars to about 2,000 owners of the 2003 E-Class cars who paid for but never received built-in navigation systems. Because the systems weren't ready at the time of the vehicles' launch, the company planned to allow the new owners to come back later to have the systems installed -- only to decide that such retrofits would be too complex and time-consuming.

Over the past few years, several Mercedes models have been riddled with glitches in increasingly complicated electronics systems. And in January, Mercedes announced it was recalling 33,000 vehicles world-wide to check potentially faulty seat-belt buckles.

In several quality studies, Mercedes has slipped. A study of vehicle reliability by J.D. Power & Associates last year found Mercedes had 318 problems per 100 vehicles in the 2000 model year -- worse than such middlebrow names as Dodge (312 problems per 100 vehicles), Subaru (266 problems per 100) and Mazda (288 problems per 100). Earlier this month, Mercedes improved its performance on the latest J.D. Power Initial Quality Study, which measures defects in the first 90 days of ownership. With 106 defects per 100 cars, Mercedes rose to 10th on the survey, from 15th a year earlier, when it had 132 defects per 100 cars.

But that improvement came too late for some car buyers. Merrel Wilkenfeld, of Charlotte, N.C., bought a $52,000 2003 E-Class but found that after a few months, the radio wouldn't shut off, the windows wouldn't close properly, and something was wrong with the brakes.

"I'd pull up to a red light, and other drivers would look over to see this beautiful Mercedes squealing to a halt at 10 miles an hour," Mr. Wilkenfeld says. In January, he traded in the E-Class for a 2004 Jaguar S-Type.

Mercedes officials acknowledge they have received complaints from buyers about quality and say they have taken steps to address the complaints. Among the steps: increasing product testing by 50% and sending employees to parts suppliers such as Motorola Inc., Nokia Corp. and Siemens AG to gain more expertise on integrating new technologies into vehicles.

Other complaints, Mercedes officials say, involve less grave issues and are limited to the U.S. market, such as gripes about the size of cup holders and noise generated by windshield wipers at high speeds.

"Mercedes customers should have very high expectations about their vehicles, but in many cases, Mercedes customers have absolute quality expectations, which means 'no failure' or 'no quality problem whatsoever,' " says Mercedes spokesman Johannes Reifenrath.

In the case of the advanced brake system, Mercedes bet on a technology that had won over many outside safety experts. An association of international experts in the field of brake technology honored the system in November 2001 as "an important contribution to increasing active safety in motor vehicles."

Developed by German car-parts maker Robert Bosch GmbH at a cost of nearly $150 million over six years, the "brakes with an electronic brain" use microchips to sense when a driver is braking in an emergency, and can draw on a high-pressure hydraulic reservoir to apply maximum braking force instantaneously.

Based on the car's speed and direction, the brakes apply different braking pressure to each of the four wheels, which helps maintain control even in emergency stops. Compared with conventional brakes, they can reduce a vehicle's stopping distance by as much as 3% -- a big difference in an accident. If the electronic components fail, the car still can be stopped, thanks to a backup hydraulic system that activates the front brakes.

But to some customers, the improvement wasn't apparent.

"Even the salesperson could not feel a difference," Joseph Testa, 39, of Tampa, Fla., says of the Bosch system in his 2002 E-430 sedan. Mr. Testa wound up buying the model but says the dealer agreed to shave a few thousand dollars off the price after comparing it with an earlier model that lacked the system and noticing no major difference. "It killed him to have to admit it," Mr. Testa says.

Mercedes officials themselves aren't so bullish about the system's future. Although the company plans to keep it in the models that currently feature it -- including the E-Class, the SL-Class, Maybach and SLR McLaren -- Mr. Reifenrath, the company spokesman, says the system is "very costly" and that conventional braking technology has improved to the point that "we can look at other systems."

He declined to say how much the Bosch system costs. A Bosch spokesman says Mercedes officials have told his company the system "is too expensive and in newer models they wouldn't apply it."

Mercedes says it didn't receive any complaints about the brakes from U.S. customers, and that most complaints involved vehicles with high rates of usage, such as taxis. Mr. Reifenrath wouldn't say what the recall would cost the company, but said reports that it would be €25 million, about $30 million, "sound reasonable."

"When you're an innovation leader and you introduce developments like air bags and [electronic brakes], the others can watch and see you develop the system and see you invest the money and time, and then you've done the work for them," Mr. Reifenrath said. While some customers "may not appreciate" certain safety improvements, he adds, "If you want to be an innovation leader, you have to invest in these things."

Two other German car makers also recalled high-end vehicles. Porsche AG said yesterday it is recalling more than 40,000 Cayenne sport-utility vehicles world-wide to check for potential faults in rear seat belts, while Volkswagen AG recalled some 60,000 of its Touareg SUVs to address the same problem. Porsche and Volkswagen jointly developed the two SUVs and they share some parts.

krispykrme

One thing i like to say about the TL. It's really is a great car for its price tag.

I was going to pick up a TL for my beater until I got the E500. The only reason that E500 was chosen because I got a huge discount on it. So far other than the SBC moan and alignment, my E500 has been extremely reliable. No rattles.

I used to own a 2000 TL. It by far is the worst japanese car I have owned. A lot of rattles and broken interior parts. The biggest thing is the brakes would warp easily. Prior to my wife write off that car, it already on its 3rd set of brake. In addition, transmission were begin to slip.

The new TL has solved a lot of problem from the last generation. The brakes feels much better than my 2000 TL. I do like the features that TL has right now. Acura NAV is by far the best nav out there. Far superior than anything mercedes has to offer.

So far, I am very happy with my E500. Very capable beater. 5,000 miles and still going strong. Totally trouble free. (well knock on wood).

alewifebp

I think that Silver_Lana hit the nail on the head. It is not that we are really "bashing" the car, but that we expect and pay for the best. MB is more expensive than other manufacturers, and with that extra cost you expect more. The brand marquee also says something about the car, too, as well as the history.

And I don't really like the comparison of cars that really don't deserve a comparison. The Acura TL is no doubt a great car, and it does truly offer one of the best values out there, and no doubt has some stuff that is better than in the E, or in any German car for that matter. But, the TL is in a lower class than the E, and is FWD, which even with all of the improvements and refinements that have been made, and Acura should be commended for this, it still remains a FWD car, and can not in the near future match the pure performance and comfort that a RWD car gives you. Before we make comparisons against the E and the Japanese competitors, I think we need to wait for the new M45, RL, and GS, which are slotted against the E. We can all draw our own conclusions about the 5.

I also remember reading a couple of years ago basically saying the same things as mentioned in this article. At that time, it was related to MB having the highest warranty costs of any car company, and MB giving the same response, more or less, that we are "working on it".

If you ask me with the current competition what car I would drive, the E will remain my choice. But I will always evaluate the other brands, and not maintain a brand loyalty if it is not deserving.

Apollo

Hi

It's nice to see that am not alone in my previous comments about my expectations from a car costing this much money.

Touch wood, my car is now 6 weeks old and no other signs of defects apart from the 2 faults that I had.

monakh

For personal reasons I have been thinking about selling my E500 and getting a TL in its stead. Acura just has to give me a decent trade-in value for my E (MSRP 66.5K) and I will be all over this deal...

Oslo: My E may not have died like that TL on 395 (I take it everyday to work), but trust me I have come very, very close. All my electrical systems shut down and I was effectively driving like a bat out in broad daylight with no indications of engine status, nav, TeleAid, stereo--you name it,

Let's give credit where it is due. While I am absolutely in love with my E, I do believe it could use a lot more work (quality-wise) at the price I paid for it.

And let's not even start mentioning my Evil (TM) dealership and their absolutely shi**y service. I honestly feel like I drive less than a Honda, the way I am treated by the dealer. Maybe the folks with S-class and above get more attention? I have no idea what it is.

Kar don

That long post says the 2002 E430 has the SBC system and the owner complained about it! What a bunch of garbage! the W210 never had the system. I had to dump my lexus for cheap because of the all the problems i had with it! I hated it and the dealer service was so lousy! I was so fed up with it!

DaCeptak0n

My brother is getting an Acura TL in the coming months with only one option - Navigation. We have test drivem it abundantly and weighed it against our E and it seems in terms of features and options, Acura TL prevails exceedingly over the E-class.

But what Acura lacks is the appeal. With Mercedes, you get the feeling of driving A Mercedes, which stuns people when I drive it to work everyday and my coworkers keep asking me for rides in to and from lunch.

All in all, a Mercedes is a Mercedes-Benz and the name alone can not be touched by Acura yet Acura is coming up there becuase of the overwhelming problems the new TL owners are experiencing. I guess that alone matches Mercedes-Benz with Acura

rmeltz1

Hi everyone - As the original poster of this thread, I appreciate all the feedback. I want to address one thought that several fellow members have conveyed... That being the thought that driving a Mercedes still provides a feeling of wealth, safety and cache. No argument here - IT DOES. But for how much longer? And for what cost ("our cost")? I can only believe that with more headlines and articles in major papers about Mercedes having lost its edge on quality engineering along with pictures of disgruntled former owners standing next to their new Cadillac (LA TImes cover story last Fall), there will begin a mind-set change. A change that may well affect future owners and current admirers.

I for one have been in love with the brand since the age of 15 and have personnally owned 5 new models since 1995. I must admit that while I continue to respect the brand, my brand-loyalty has decended to the level where my next shopping excursion will include brands outside Mercedes.

DavidNJ

Two things:

First, the article said MB is improving the quality. It seems '04 owners are reporting better results than '03 owners. And my road test of the '05 CDI couldn't detect any SBC problem. I always found the SBC gave a strange response before. Imagine, a brake system that can be improved with programming.

Second, the Acura TL. First, it is not equiped the same. And then the features. Well, the nav system is great. And the climate control has the directional controlls of the E500 for the front seat passengers. And XM is included free.

And that's where it ends. The audio system ONLY sounds good with DVD-Audio discs. How many do you have? Play that XM radio, or regular CD (MP3 is NOT supported). An the sound is flat and uninteresting. IMHO the stock W211 system blows it away.

And the Bluetooth phone. Great concept. Now if they finished programming it they may have something. The ONLY way to dial is with your voice. No buttons. No how to you access a voice menu?

Interior design and fit is very good. As good as the W211. However the materials s***. The seats are a plastic covered leather. The black interior manages several different shades. The grey is a muddy blue. The camel is just strange. And the 'wood' is fake.

The passanger seat goes forward and backward only. The rear seat is awkward. Options like a fold down rear seat (standard on may $15-20k cars from the land of the rising sun) is not available. Exterior panel fit is atrocious. Some owners report the paint wearing through on the front bumper.

The rim protector (they are only good for keeping the rim off the pavement) are the same junk found on an low end Camry or Altima. And they are junk there also. None of the Bridgestone features. Owners frequently replace them as part of the cost of admission.

And how do they age? Looking at older Acuras you will see the labels worn off controls, leather stretched and cracking, paint faded, etc. This is a car built to a price with some questionable design decisions. (Well, SBC is also a questionable design decision)

Well why do I have so extensive an opinion? I came to the verge of buying one. Then my better judgement kicked in.

Brav

All great things come and go, let alone have cycles. When it starts to hurt them, hopefully, they will get the picture. It is also the price of innovation. MB is the first to do a lot of new things, especially regarding safety and powertrain.

I am more annoyed by the lack of technology with all the "little things" such as blue tooth, RDS, etc. And the fact that the US market always gets ripped off, when it comes to these options while other countries can enjoy them.

I considered an Acura and pocketing the difference, but then I wouldnt have
1) a dead sexy car
2) a torqy V8
3) air suspension
4) amazing interior
5) Pano roof
6) yea, everyone must admit, a dash of prestige etc.

I bought the car because of the whole package. I love all the gadgets. Some may buy for other reasons... I really never considered MB because of the stigma and cliche it carried. Especially in the "OC" - so cali.

MB will get away with what ever they can. They are a business. However, they may be a bit short-sighted as if this continues, it will hurt them in the long run. Unfortunately, I'd still buy the car again. If anytying I should have gotten an E55.

S55inPA

hi guys,

i test drove a TL last year.
nice car at a nice price was my final opinion. the TL
really isn't a competitor of the E 500 and imho does
not exceed the E320. the materials inside the cabin
of the E exceed the TL and the E just feels like a
larger car. i had a couple of Acura RL's
and like the brand very much but they are still behind
the german brands in many ways.

1SICKLEX

IMO, I'd just stick with a German car. The TL is currently part of a lawsuit for a faulty tranny. And since they started building them in Ohio (the car is designed and built here and for the U.S market) the quality is lacking for a Japanese car, let alone a Japanase luxury car. Go to any Acura/TL site for 3 min, and you will see quality issues galore.
WIthout a doubt, you get the most features for the money. The car has improved again with materials. You get a lot of power (to the wrong wheels though) and for 9/10 people good handling. The new TL is a good looking car, IMO. It all comes at an expense of quality.

Acura attacks niches. The Tl is bigger than a C-class, smaller than an E-class, has power between the V-6 and V-8. It is powerful, but FWD. The car is loaded with everything but NAV. Dealer service is better than Honda, not as good as true luxury makers.

Seeing some E-class consider the TL though, that is very commendable for Acura. It is selling well, over 6k units a month.

krispykrme

I really don't think Acura is that bullet proof or that reliable.

My 2000 TL has been a huge dissappointment and that resulted in me departing (well my wife) the honda brand.

I really never had any trouble free honda. My 94 accord's a/c compressor died on me and spill hot water onto my barefeet. The 92 accord that i wrecked had a non functional driver airbag. All honda i had has problem with warped brake.

So far my E500 has been great solid car. Other than alignment issue off the dealer lot, the car has really been trouble free. Oh, i fogot one more thing that bothered me with the E500 was the statics.

But my E500 build quality is excellent. No rattles. You will not be able to make the same claim with Acura.

I tooked apart my front dash about a week ago. I was amazed to find a quarter inch thick insulating material within the dash.

alewifebp

With the talk of the cheaper interiors in the TL, well I would hope so! The TL is a $35,000 car fully loaded more or less. The E starts at nearly $50,000. I would hope that we have a nicer interior with that $15,000 difference!

My E has also been trouble-free for the most part. The problems are annoyances (COMAND, SBC, alignment, etc). My Accord was completely trouble free, and my Lexus only had a few small things (like the window regulators) go wrong. But this is what I expect as a luxury car buyer (or as an Accord buyer).

RJC

The 2004 Acura TL is a great car and for 33k it's even better. I agree with the poster that said all it needs is RWD. The car was never intended to compete with the E class but instead the C class and lower end 3 series BMW. If Acura built the TL with RWD and a V8 for say a 5-7k premium over the current car then the E class would have serious competition; new RL?. I don't know if the totally redesigned RL is going to be RWD or not, I hear it will not have a V8 but a 300 hp V6, lucky for MB Eclass V8 sales, 320 sales may not be so lucky especially if the price is under 40k. The E 350 can't come soon enough and it needs to bring super high quality and a good price piont with it.

S55inPA

hi guys,

the new RL will still be a V6 but with AWD.
nice interior with an ok exterior.
it should be showing up in showrooms in
about 3 months. i think it should compare
favorably with the E.

monakh

Guys, I think it is established that we are comparing apples to oranges when we compare the TL to the E. However, that's the idea, isn't it, sometimes? Sometimes, the apples are just so damn good for the money and the oranges seem, not so sweet and far too expensive.

I agree Acura has had its share of problems. But to say the E hasn't, well, that would be wrong. Just my own personal experience with the 2003 E500 (at almost 68K) and subsequently the 2004 E500 (at almost 67K) leaves me thinking that some things are not worth it. Yes, there is no doubt that prestige is there. My family from abroad is always oohing and aahing about my car, but in the end, all I do is ride to work and back, and sometimes attend a Sting concert I think I can do it just as well in a TL for half the price and I will have FAR better dealer experience. I realize many of you have had decent dealer experiences, but here in the Metro DC area, there is not a SINGLE decent MB dealer--not one that doesn't have their head stuck up their as*es. They are so full of themselves. And I have been experiencing this ever since I ordered the original CLK320 in late 1997.

No rattles on the E? Who says? I have had this very annoying rattle develop in my E. It has something to do with the pano roof and I haven't figured it out yet. Also, believe it or not, there's some paint chipping from the area where the fuel cap is. It's very minor but it's there. I take fantastic care of my cars, yet this...Oh and did I mention that my COMAND reboots frequently out of the blue? How about the fact that my super high-technology 7G transmission is jerky in lower gears? All stuff that my dealer can't do jack about.

To recap, I don't think it is fair to compare the E with the TL DIRECTLY, but I think it is still worth the benefit simply to demonstrate the utility and value you get out of a brand. Acura may not have the same prestige, but neither did Lexus when they launched the LS400 as a 40K luxury automobile in the early 90s. Look at where they are now. Never underestimate the power of true competition.

alewifebp

monakh, you make some very good points. First, when speaking about the competition, you should never say never. Companies have their ups and downs. Look at the US auto industry in general. Honda and Toyota came out with very unimpressive cars, and they were nearly laughed at from what I know (I was too young or not even born at the time). Well, I know they laughed because they continued in the same way that they always had, and now look at them. The Accord and Camry are class leaders in both overall performance, relability, and sales numbers, even though they are more expensive. There is no reason to believe that it can not happen in the luxury market. I think that recently the Japanese competetors have shown a lot of desire to improve themselves, and to really change what people think about them. I hear a lot of people on this board that say, oh, xyz Japanese brand will *never* get to the point where their cars are as good performers or tight structures as the Germans, but we should never make such a blanket statement.

In terms of the reliability of the E, I mentioned it in a previous post of mine, but the truth of the matter is that we really don't know what the longer term reliability of the new generation of E is going to have, it just hasn't been around long enough to warrant that. While I can certainly go to Japanese car forums and find instances where they have had problems or where a person was left stranded, I think that they are few and far between. I don't think that it is deniable that the Japanese competition is more reliable than the Germans. MB more or less admits this when they make these statements.

Let us also remember the other point that monakh made, and was about the dealership experience. While I think that his experience was worse than the norm, I don't think that anyone can say that they are the best in this regard. The dealer experience means a lot. Around me, the dealers tend to be a little snotty, and the service appointments are hard to come by, and they will take several days to complete simple service appointments. My Lexus dealer didn't always have an immediate appointment, but they would always fix the problem within a single day.

krispykrme

I can't really make a comment regarding the dealership in DC.
Majority of my visit to the dealership has been very pleasant except on couple occasions. My Acura service has been mixed. Some excellent and some are just bad and ridiculous. I am not very high on Acura service here out in the bay area.

Regarding the long term reliability issues. I do agree that we really do not know how reliable the new E is. I have two E that are produced about one month apart of each other. I had some problems with the E55 and two problems on the E500. Other than the mysterious Airmatic fault that comes and go on the E55. All has been taken care of by the dealer.

All I am saying that from my personal experience with Honda, I really believe that its reliability has been some what of a exaggeration. I do not think my TL is an isolated cases when I had problems with all my hondas in the past. Toyota/Lexus are extremely reliable based on my experiences. Those thing just never dies.