Alignment for lowered E500
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From: Bay Area
E500 Sport
Alignment for lowered E500
I lowered my '03 E500 sport via new links on the front, and relocating the sensor on the rear. The car is lowered about 2" all around. I had a camber kit installed on the front, realigned at Topline Automobile in Burlingame, CA.
Final specs of the alignment: Front -2.5 degrees camber, Rear -3 degrees. This was the best Topline could do.
My tires just lasted 10,000 miles (Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S). The inner edge was completely shot.
Is there any other method or shop to get the alignment within factory specs (closer to -1 degree) in the Bay Area? When I had my Honda, a suspension shop "bent" the knuckles to get my car within factory specs. Could something similar be done to the Airmatic setup?
What are all you doing out there? Those of you who are riding on a lowered supspension? Any help would be appreciated!
Final specs of the alignment: Front -2.5 degrees camber, Rear -3 degrees. This was the best Topline could do.
My tires just lasted 10,000 miles (Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S). The inner edge was completely shot.
Is there any other method or shop to get the alignment within factory specs (closer to -1 degree) in the Bay Area? When I had my Honda, a suspension shop "bent" the knuckles to get my car within factory specs. Could something similar be done to the Airmatic setup?
What are all you doing out there? Those of you who are riding on a lowered supspension? Any help would be appreciated!
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 112
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From: Sf Bay Area
2003 E500, 1998 Ferrari Spider
Camber (the inward/outward tilt of the wheel at the top) will cause an accelerated wear paatern. With 2.5 to 3.00 degrees of negative camber your wheels are bowed out at the bottom when looking at the car from the front or the back. Many track cars are actually set-up with that much negative camber as it allows for a greater contact patch during heavy cornering.
The trade off in better handeling is that camber is the second leading factor in accelerated tire wear (toe in/toe out is the fastest wear factor). The good news is that I am sure that they could set your toe properly.
In reagrds to your camber issue, here is what I did: I have 19s on my car and I opted for the new Fuzion tires. They are a Bridgestone product and a set of 4 for only $710 delivered on my door from the Tire Rack. At that price point I am not really too concerned about my tread life.
Inherantly, each car has a limit as to how much (range) that you can adjust the camber. I personally have not seen a kit for the 211 (also have not researched it) taht can bring a 2" lowered car back in to spec.
How you lower your car is a moot point. Even if you lower it by reprogramming the airmatic, the bottom line is still the same (too much negative camber). The reason for that is your wheeel does not move up and down in a linear fashion. It is an arc as viewed from the front or rear. If your car is 2" lower (by any means of lowering it) it will cause your wheels to bow out (ie, negative camber).
I am just going to leave mine and bite the bullet (a nominal one at $710) and replace as neccessary. I am not going to spend $$$$ on a set of nice S03s for a heavy car.
Hope this helps.
The trade off in better handeling is that camber is the second leading factor in accelerated tire wear (toe in/toe out is the fastest wear factor). The good news is that I am sure that they could set your toe properly.
In reagrds to your camber issue, here is what I did: I have 19s on my car and I opted for the new Fuzion tires. They are a Bridgestone product and a set of 4 for only $710 delivered on my door from the Tire Rack. At that price point I am not really too concerned about my tread life.
Inherantly, each car has a limit as to how much (range) that you can adjust the camber. I personally have not seen a kit for the 211 (also have not researched it) taht can bring a 2" lowered car back in to spec.
How you lower your car is a moot point. Even if you lower it by reprogramming the airmatic, the bottom line is still the same (too much negative camber). The reason for that is your wheeel does not move up and down in a linear fashion. It is an arc as viewed from the front or rear. If your car is 2" lower (by any means of lowering it) it will cause your wheels to bow out (ie, negative camber).
I am just going to leave mine and bite the bullet (a nominal one at $710) and replace as neccessary. I am not going to spend $$$$ on a set of nice S03s for a heavy car.
Hope this helps.
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E320
If you talk to Brabus or Carlsson regarding lowering the Airmatic and alignment, they do NOT push for an alignment as the new setting, when you use their lowering module, is the setting when the car lowers itself automatically past 80mph anyway.
That's what I heard.
That's what I heard.
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 112
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From: Sf Bay Area
2003 E500, 1998 Ferrari Spider
The other two things working against you is this: 1) If you have aftermarket wheels you are probably running a staggered set-up, therefore you can not rotate front to rear. 2) The weight of the car. With those 2 things working against me (and the weight of the car adversly affecting the handeling) I opted for the Fuzions. I was quite surprised with their performance and at that cost it does not hurt in the pocketbook. For me I thought, why would I put a really good (and expensive) tire on a heavy sedan? Now I have got the best of both worlds. Good performance, inexpensive, good ride, and quite going down the road.
Cheers
Cheers
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Bay Area
E500 Sport
Thanks for the input, but I don't feel the same in regards to "just" replacing the tires when they wear out. Is there anyone else out there who knows of any custom alignment procedures that can be done?
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From: Tustin, CA
'12 CLS550, '08 M6, '04 E500
Just flip your tires every 3,000 ~ 5,000 miles depending on the wear. You can find shops that do it for $10 a tire. Just dismount the tires, flip them, re-mount them, and re-balance them. This is what I have been doing.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Bay Area
E500 Sport
Originally Posted by amgkoo
Just flip your tires every 3,000 ~ 5,000 miles depending on the wear. You can find shops that do it for $10 a tire. Just dismount the tires, flip them, re-mount them, and re-balance them. This is what I have been doing.
yes, i used to do that on my honda, until I found the alignment shop that bent my suspension. I am looking for something more permanent, as I did on my Honda, for my E500...I want it done right at the beginning, so it's less work for me later on. Thanks for the idea, though
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From: South Orange County, CA
4 wheels
Best way to lower the car and keep it in specs is lower the car via Star Diagnostics, plus tire wear pattern remains the same and nothing physically is affected by this adjustment.
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 112
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From: Sf Bay Area
2003 E500, 1998 Ferrari Spider
Originally Posted by tbone
yes, i used to do that on my honda, until I found the alignment shop that bent my suspension. I am looking for something more permanent, as I did on my Honda, for my E500...I want it done right at the beginning, so it's less work for me later on. Thanks for the idea, though
I would wait for a kit (if and when they ever come) versus bending anything, especially on an MB.
Just my .02
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From: Canada
2004 E500 / 2001 C240
As I mentioned earlier, get Merc to do it and they will do it properly.. The AMG is lowered compared to the E500 and you never hear them complain about uneven tire wear..
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From: Sf Bay Area
2003 E500, 1998 Ferrari Spider
Originally Posted by atssystems.com
As I mentioned earlier, get Merc to do it and they will do it properly.. The AMG is lowered compared to the E500 and you never hear them complain about uneven tire wear..
The problem is that the wheel moves in an arc. No matter HOW you lower it, it will have the exact same effect on negative camber. The farther the wheel travels toward the fender, the more the bottom of the wheel bows out. That is 100% engineered and 100% mechanical. No programming is going to change how much negative camber the car has as the wheel moves through its travel.
If the car is reprogrammed by Merc, they can (or will really) only lower it to a minimum height, definetly not 2".
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From: South Orange County, CA
4 wheels
My E55 which is already lower than the E500 sport was further lowered by my dealer by an inch or so. You really need to go to a dealer and have them do it. You risk great chance by trying to tweak your car the way you have mentioned.
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From: S.F. Bay Area, CA
'18 E63S AMG
Comparing my E500 with my cousin's E55, although the E55 is lowered, it is not as low as mine which is lowered about 2 inches. Lowering the E55 another inch will have the same problems since the geometry is essentially the same.
Anyway, I had my car aligned by Topline as well, and the negative camber figures were essentially the same as TBone's even with the camber kit. They mentioned that perhaps they may make some type of kit, but worried that it may push the top of the tire too far out for the fender in the front, if I understood them correctly.
For now, if you want it lowered, it looks like we may have to live with the excessive interior wear.
Anyway, I had my car aligned by Topline as well, and the negative camber figures were essentially the same as TBone's even with the camber kit. They mentioned that perhaps they may make some type of kit, but worried that it may push the top of the tire too far out for the fender in the front, if I understood them correctly.
For now, if you want it lowered, it looks like we may have to live with the excessive interior wear.
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Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Sf Bay Area
2003 E500, 1998 Ferrari Spider
The higher your wheel moves through the travel the more negative camber you will get. If you look at you car from the back, the higher your wheel moves the more the bottom of the wheel will move out. The pattern is not linear (it is an arc), and proportionally it is not linear (degree of arc is not constant).
Therefore there is a sweet spot (definetly not 2") lower than the stock ride height where it will not cause severe negative camber.
Once the tech has adjusted to the end of the range, you would have to compensate mechanically. Two good examples are 1) The old VW Baja Bugs. Remeber when people had them raised up and you followed behind them? Their wheels were bowed in at the bottom (inverse of lowering effect). 2) 4x4 trucks. The higher they go (ONLY on an independent suspension) the more their wheels bow in.
Really, no matter how you lower your car (ie module, links, reprograming the airmatic), if you lower 2" you are going to have issues with camber. Also strictly from an engineering standpoint, your car is now starting 2" in its travel.
It is not how you lower it, it is what are you going to change mechanically to compensate for the negative camber.
Years ago during the pick up truck craze, they used to use these dropped spindles which ONLY moved the spindle higher. The trucks suspension was in the exact same position as stock. Therfore no bowing.
Lowering by reprogramming does not address anything from a mechanical stand point. The wheel is merely higher in its range of travel.
Therefore there is a sweet spot (definetly not 2") lower than the stock ride height where it will not cause severe negative camber.
Once the tech has adjusted to the end of the range, you would have to compensate mechanically. Two good examples are 1) The old VW Baja Bugs. Remeber when people had them raised up and you followed behind them? Their wheels were bowed in at the bottom (inverse of lowering effect). 2) 4x4 trucks. The higher they go (ONLY on an independent suspension) the more their wheels bow in.
Really, no matter how you lower your car (ie module, links, reprograming the airmatic), if you lower 2" you are going to have issues with camber. Also strictly from an engineering standpoint, your car is now starting 2" in its travel.
It is not how you lower it, it is what are you going to change mechanically to compensate for the negative camber.
Years ago during the pick up truck craze, they used to use these dropped spindles which ONLY moved the spindle higher. The trucks suspension was in the exact same position as stock. Therfore no bowing.
Lowering by reprogramming does not address anything from a mechanical stand point. The wheel is merely higher in its range of travel.
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From: South Orange County, CA
4 wheels
the stock difference is about 1", but after having set the Airmatic to ROW (by the dealer) it is now about 2" or slightly more.
I dont have a digi cam (wife broke it, and I am not buying another one till our next vacation). But there are some others who posted pics of the E55 lowered by Star Diagnostics.
I dont have a digi cam (wife broke it, and I am not buying another one till our next vacation). But there are some others who posted pics of the E55 lowered by Star Diagnostics.
Thread Starter
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From: Bay Area
E500 Sport
Originally Posted by MB SF
The higher your wheel moves through the travel the more negative camber you will get. If you look at you car from the back, the higher your wheel moves the more the bottom of the wheel will move out. The pattern is not linear (it is an arc), and proportionally it is not linear (degree of arc is not constant).
Therefore there is a sweet spot (definetly not 2") lower than the stock ride height where it will not cause severe negative camber.
Once the tech has adjusted to the end of the range, you would have to compensate mechanically. Two good examples are 1) The old VW Baja Bugs. Remeber when people had them raised up and you followed behind them? Their wheels were bowed in at the bottom (inverse of lowering effect). 2) 4x4 trucks. The higher they go (ONLY on an independent suspension) the more their wheels bow in.
Really, no matter how you lower your car (ie module, links, reprograming the airmatic), if you lower 2" you are going to have issues with camber. Also strictly from an engineering standpoint, your car is now starting 2" in its travel.
It is not how you lower it, it is what are you going to change mechanically to compensate for the negative camber.
Years ago during the pick up truck craze, they used to use these dropped spindles which ONLY moved the spindle higher. The trucks suspension was in the exact same position as stock. Therfore no bowing.
Lowering by reprogramming does not address anything from a mechanical stand point. The wheel is merely higher in its range of travel.
Therefore there is a sweet spot (definetly not 2") lower than the stock ride height where it will not cause severe negative camber.
Once the tech has adjusted to the end of the range, you would have to compensate mechanically. Two good examples are 1) The old VW Baja Bugs. Remeber when people had them raised up and you followed behind them? Their wheels were bowed in at the bottom (inverse of lowering effect). 2) 4x4 trucks. The higher they go (ONLY on an independent suspension) the more their wheels bow in.
Really, no matter how you lower your car (ie module, links, reprograming the airmatic), if you lower 2" you are going to have issues with camber. Also strictly from an engineering standpoint, your car is now starting 2" in its travel.
It is not how you lower it, it is what are you going to change mechanically to compensate for the negative camber.
Years ago during the pick up truck craze, they used to use these dropped spindles which ONLY moved the spindle higher. The trucks suspension was in the exact same position as stock. Therfore no bowing.
Lowering by reprogramming does not address anything from a mechanical stand point. The wheel is merely higher in its range of travel.
MB SF: I totally agree with you. This is also my understanding, which is why I'm posting this thread. Namely, to find a mechanical way to alter my camber.
I do not want to have the dealer align my car, as their machine cannot/will not lower the car 2", which is the look I like. They will lower the car only to a point at which final alignment specs are still within factory tolerance. The E55 may by lowered an additional 1" from stock height and still be within factory tolerance because it is being lowered only by 1". If I lowered my E500 by only 1", it could be aligned into factory specs. One needs to realized that final specs are determined by how much the car was lowered from it's stock height, not it's final ride height (comparing an E500 to E55 is not a good comparison, because the E55 sits lower to begin with, and it comes aligned properly from the factory at the inital, lower height).
CAL BENZO: I spoke with Zim yesterday. He is still looking to see if he can locate a rear camber kit for our car. If so, I belive we'll be within factory tolerance, as we are already almost there. As for the front end, Zim says he can do some custom work if desired. He would have to drill a larger hole, and use a longer bolt. I am still thinking over this. How many miles do you have on your tires right now? What kind of tires are you running?
To everyone, please continue with your help. It's greatly appreciated.
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From: Sacramento
AMG C43, 1999
I sell a very high quality rear camber kit for Mercedes that will allow you to adjust your rear camber to -1 degree or less.
I have sold some 80 plus kits to MB owners and get solid feedback on all accounts. The camber arms use oversized rod end bearings that are sleeved down with stainless steel inserts to work with the stock metric hardware. The rod end bearing race is a Kevlar/Teflon mixture that is self lubricating and produces no noise. The camber arm is a high quality Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM) tubing swedged at the ends to increase strength. Cost is $260 Shipped.
I have sold some 80 plus kits to MB owners and get solid feedback on all accounts. The camber arms use oversized rod end bearings that are sleeved down with stainless steel inserts to work with the stock metric hardware. The rod end bearing race is a Kevlar/Teflon mixture that is self lubricating and produces no noise. The camber arm is a high quality Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM) tubing swedged at the ends to increase strength. Cost is $260 Shipped.
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From: Bay Area
E500 Sport
[QUOTE=speedybenz]I sell a very high quality rear camber kit for Mercedes that will allow you to adjust your rear camber to -1 degree or less.
I have sold some 80 plus kits to MB owners and get solid feedback on all accounts. The camber arms use oversized rod end bearings that are sleeved down with stainless steel inserts to work with the stock metric hardware. The rod end bearing race is a Kevlar/Teflon mixture that is self lubricating and produces no noise. The camber arm is a high quality Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM) tubing swedged at the ends to increase strength. Cost is $260 Shipped.
Who makes the kit? Have you installed any on an E500? Do you have any kits for the front?
I have sold some 80 plus kits to MB owners and get solid feedback on all accounts. The camber arms use oversized rod end bearings that are sleeved down with stainless steel inserts to work with the stock metric hardware. The rod end bearing race is a Kevlar/Teflon mixture that is self lubricating and produces no noise. The camber arm is a high quality Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM) tubing swedged at the ends to increase strength. Cost is $260 Shipped.
Who makes the kit? Have you installed any on an E500? Do you have any kits for the front?
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Sf Bay Area
2003 E500, 1998 Ferrari Spider
Here you go. Mine is lowered 1.75"
Originally Posted by lpolo
1. what is the height difference between E500 vs. E55? 1"?
2. can you post pic of your E55 after it got lowered?
2. can you post pic of your E55 after it got lowered?
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 112
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From: Sf Bay Area
2003 E500, 1998 Ferrari Spider
Originally Posted by atssystems.com
Do you have any pics not on a slope?
I would like to see how low the car really is. It looks nice by the way..
I would like to see how low the car really is. It looks nice by the way..
