220S

Great. More internet mythology.

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403382

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=489990

http://paultan.org/2010/02/08/bmw-f1...-drive-report/

K-A

I've heard about the F10 having terrible turning radius as well (on BMW sites at that). Not sure if it's true or not I guess. I know the turning radius is amazing on the 212, and makes maneuvering around a breeze, especially for a car of its fairly generous size.

Never really noticed about the tranny shifting, but I don't really drive this car aggressively. I know that when I have needed some quick snaps, it does lag (paddles as well) pretty considerably, but I guess it isn't that a big deal to me. I'm thinking it may be done for comfort reasons (although, a good tranny should be able to shift quickly when necessary, and retain comfort when necessary), which weighs stronger for me as well.

fromthebeginnin

KA it really has to do with the adaptive (or quiet) mode of the ECU, you may find the following of interest. Not trying to turn this into another Sprint Booster thread, but this is a good explanation of quiet mode and its impact on driveability.

A lot of people speculate on exactly what the adaptive control in their vehicle is or does. There is precious little information readily available on this subject. I was able to get the following information from the Mercedes service manual through my subscription to alldatadiy.com:
"Adaptative accelerator pedal (model 203, 209, 211, 215, 220, 230):
“The engine control unit recognises how the accelerator pedal is being
actuated and switches between characteristic curves. Eighty percent of the
engine load is released for a pedal travel of about 50 % for a sporty
driverer and about 40 % for a quiet driver. There is no further difference
felt above a pedal travel of about 90 %. "Note: If, for example, the characteristic curve for a quiet driver is active after a long drive on the motorway then the accelerator pedal must be pressed down unusually hard to obtain a higher acceleration level." So, the ECU actually does on its own what the Sprint Booster does. It changes the gain or response to the accelerator pedal. However, unlike the Sprint Booster, which applies a fixed gain, in these Mercedes applications the ECU varies the gain between at least two "characteristic curves". OK. If I've been driving my stock Mercedes on the motorway or freeway a long while, the ECU switches to the "quiet driver" curve. Of course, as the driver, I have no indication of this. Now, if I want to pass, and I press the pedal down a bit, say to the 70% point, what do I get? Because I'm on the "quiet" curve, I would get
40% power at 50% pedal, so I suppose I get maybe 60-70% power at 70% pedal (we don't know because Mercedes doesn't tell us). But, if I have a Sprint Booster installed, now what happens? The Sprint Booster multiplies the 70% pedal by 1.3 to 91%. I'm still on the quiet curve, but since there's no difference between curves above 90% pedal travel (and that's what the ECU got from the Sprint Booster), boom – I get 90+% power. "Feels" great. Note that Mercedes tells me that I could get the same 90+% power without the Sprint Booster, I just need to hit 90% pedal. But, of course, that "feels" more sluggish. The car is not more sluggish - it "feels" that way.
This is, in essence, what Sprint Booster is all about – feel. Here is another consideration regarding feel. On some Mercedes vehicles, a kickdown switch is used. This is a switch on the accelerator pedal that is
activated on full accelerator pedal depression. The switch feeds into the control module for automatic transmissions. As the name implies, it is one input to tell the automatic transmission to downshift for quicker acceleration. It has a tactile feel to it – you can feel the switch, and need to increase pressure on the accelerator pedal a bit to overcome it, so you know by feel when you are engaging it.

Here’s a little tidbit of information from Mercedes:
“The kickdown switch was no longer used from 9/01. Recognition of full
load is now achieved over the signal from the pedal value sensor. The
pressure point on the accelerator pedal before achieving the full load
position remains.”
OK. So, what happens if I have a vehicle equipped with tactile kickdown
feedback, but no actual switch? If I’m cruising along, then want to pass, and I push the accelerator pedal down to 70% as before, the kickdown switch does not engage. The engine speeds up, but slowly, as does the vehicle, because the automatic transmission remains in top gear. “Hmm – sluggish!” I might think. I press harder, hit the tactile point, press harder still, and engage kickdown. “Finally” I think, as the transmission finally downshifts, and I accelerate to pass.

BenzE350

Agreed. Everytime I back up my car I need to wait 2 seconds after putting the transmission in drive - or the car lurches forward.

Annoying.

Wig

220S - which BMW forum is equivalent to MBWorld, i.e. has the most informative and regular users?

220S

I think the most popular and most informative with regular users is: http://www.bimmerpost.com/5-series/

They have the best info and stickies of any site (and on all models.) But there tends to be a lot more traffic for the 3 series and M3. It's really busy and can get kind of juvenile sometimes (but not in the other sections.)

One that tends to be more mature and informative, but also popular with lots of traffic is: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/index.php

Also (but not a lot of posts): http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/

Specific to the 5 series is: http://forums.5series.net/

For the M5 (equivalent to the E55/63 AMG forums here): http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/

And the most tech informative and mature, but less active is the BMWCCA forums: http://bmwcca.org/forum/

Wig

Thanks for that 220S. Very helpful.

K-A

I Registered to Bimmerfest. Expecting the typical BMW fanboy immature nonsense, I gotta say that they seem to have a pretty intelligent, and cool group of owners there (only have gone to the F10 Board). Enthusiastic, and mature/realistic for the most part. Also, naturally, that Site has more traffic and enthusiastic owners about their cars there (be it 528's, 535's, or 550's, just more enthusiasts it seems), than we do here.

FTB: Thanks for that post, and it seems to have some great info! Been busy, so haven't indulged in the info fully yet.

golfster

I think the car magazines and enthusiast/brand loyalists/owners try to pit the 5 series and E-class head to head more than BMW and M-B themselves do. I don't really see the two cars as head to head competitors in anything other than price point and general size. The BMW is more of the enthusiast's car with enthusiast-driven performance characteristics, while the E-Class is targeting a slightly different niche' with a more sedate, solid sedan with just a bit of sporty styling flair. Perhaps they are targeting the same general demographic (age, income, etc.), but with each car/brand appealing to slightly different expectations of the cars within that group.

This seems reflected within the forums for both brands. The BMW posters moving on about the car, its characteristics, features and a few mods, while the M-B forum posts, outside of the general questions (many times repeated) are often driven by posts seeking how to change the very characteristic of the car that makes it an E, or how to unlock some hidden performance that will transform the E into a true enthusiast's car, like the 5 series. Regardless, the 5 series will still be more of the enthusiast's car, and the E will be more of the boulevard cruiser, both very good at what they were designed to do.

Oh, but can the Bimmer enthusiasts keep a Sprint Booster thread going as long as we have?

Wig

Golfster - you raise a good point. I find it surprising that so many people try to mod their E-Classes for performance reasons. If you want a true sports sedan, there are many better choices out there.

K-A

EXACTLY. And I agree with Wig. I bought an E because I wanted an E, and I got a Sport Package because it gave me just enough balance, and most importantly, visual dynamics to please me immensely.

However, I do think that a lot of E owners here may have been happier with the more appropriated-to-them 5-Series.

Then again, the F10 5-Series is said to move closer to "Mercedes" or "Lexus" or even "Buick" territory from some BMW enthusiasts, and wars wage on the F10 Boards all the time because of that.

220S

This is true and pretty much has always been the case. BMWs have been targeted towards a younger demographic of car enthusiasts and in the "sports sedan" category (I think BMW actually came up with that term starting with the 1600 and later the 2002.) Mercedes is considered "the car for old people."

Both brands have a lot to offer, and to different desires and needs.

BMW has always been marketed towards driving dynamics (in the 'sport' sense.) So, yeah, that'll attract different buyers. The 7 series is directed towards older people, however. And it's considered a luxury car and not about the "ultimate driving machine." But I don't think it can hold a candle to the S Class. For a premium car, the S Class is a much better bet. And the S Class has a good cred among BMW and Porsche owners. It's the quintessential luxury car with great driving characteristics (the S Class with ABC suspension, that is.) The S Class (and CL) wins in that category.

The problem with the 7 series is that it's too far removed from what is BMW's main attraction: the "sports sedan." And I think that's what's happening with the new BMW F10 5 series. They softened it up quite a bit and that's disappointed previous consumers of the 5 series who want the sports sedan driving (E60) characteristics. But I'm guessing BMW is now looking more at the baby boomer demographic which has money but with "younger" tastes than their predecessors. So they softened up the car yet still keep it under the "sports sedan" market moniker. You see MB trying to do this (switching demographics) with the more "modern" styling and marketing.

I bought the E Class only because I needed a basic grocery getter sedan and one that was comfortable for long trips, too. I first bought an E350 but found it incredibly boring to drive. So I later went with the E63 for at least some of those "BMW Ultimate Driving Machine" ingredients. I already have a BMW and a Porsche to cover all the other bases, so the E Class fits in pretty well. And I kinda like the "old man" stereotype that comes with Mercedes since it makes the car even more of a sleeper (I debadged it, too )

But I know a lot of people who wouldn't be caught dead in a Mercedes because of the "old man's car stigma." That perception can travel a long way. The Mercedes SUVs and E Class wagons are for older suburban soccer moms, and the SLs are for men in a mid-life crisis and recently divorced older women. It's silly, but that's the real stereotype. And car mfgs and marketers know all that stuff.

Remember the classic Audi commercials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfXqt0PuHQk

babyjocko

Uh..."the Ultimate Driving Machine" is just a slogan. Of the people who actually believe that BMW is the ultimate driving machine, 90% of them are gullible fools (as are most people in this world - Madison Ave and propaganda can never die). In reality, it comes down to a few subtleties here and there. For me, those subtleties side towards Mercedes.

I have owned two BMWs (Z3, M6) and driven many others. I have owned 3 MBs (E500, E550, GLK) and have driven many more. I prefer the drive of MB. OTOH, I prefer BMW options. Why can't MB offer HUD?

As of the last few years, overall, in every vehicle class, BMW wins. It offers more for the money and although I think MB wins in handling, safety, and finish (nano paint is hard to beat), BMW is just a better overall value.

So why do I have a 2010 E550 and 2011 GLK350? Because I'm now old and complacent. It has taken BMW this long to catch up and surpass MB. I don't feel like changing anymore. I've been using the same deodorant for over 30 years now.

Tjdehya

I disagree... And that is the reason why I and many other bought the E-Class. lol, time for a new stick.

WEBSRFR

I agree with you completely about the interior. I really don;t know what MB was thinking designing an interior that seems so mechanical and the buttons are spartan in a Honda accord kind of way. Not to disparage the Accord which is a very fine car but I love the fluid curves of the W211 interior. The only thing I like about the W212 interior is that they placed the navigation screen higher and more in line with your line of sight when driving but other than that the interior is more suitable for the C class. The S class interior is gorgeous and world-class and MB should have gone that direction with the W212 interior. Instead there is too much plastic -- almost GMish. A bit more curves and wood would have really warmed up the interior.

I wish MB sold the W221 in a shorter wheelbase version as I'd love to have that interior in a car around the length of the W212.

babyjocko

CLS

Wig

My point was that there are many better performance sedans out there.

Don't get me wrong, I love my E-Class, but I did not buy it for the performance. There are many compelling reasons to choose an E350, but speed and handling are not among those reasons.

Tjdehya

You mean the CL.

WEBSRFR

Two problems with the CLS. When I bought my car, CLS was not offered with 4Matic and it is a MUST for me and I also need to be able to fit 3 people in the back seat and that pretty much rules out the CLS completely. Also I heard that the CLS lacks in terms of visibility. A short wheelbase W221 would have been perfect for me but it is not available in the US.

I just wish the interior of the W212 felt more upscale, refined, flowing, and elegant. MB got all these elements right with the W221 and I was surprised to be let down so much by such a plasticky and rigid interior with very little curves. Just remind me of GM/Accord interior design and wish it was more aesthetically pleasing because most of the time you are using the car, it is the interior that you are looking at...

During the mid-model facelift, MB really needs to focus on the interior of this car. It really needs to go more upscale and away from the C class spartan look. You should not have to haul an extra 15 inches of car-length with a W221 to get a refined interior.

Tjdehya

I agree 100%.
My biggest complaint with the cheapening of the E-Class is that they should offer better refinements for those that are willing to pay that extra. The designo option doesn’t go far enough in my opinion. Most of the plastic should be gone with the Designo option and not just offer better leather.

K-A

I said the exact same things before I got a 212.

The materials are of great durable quality, but some do lack on soft/plush/refined-ness.

The design however, is somewhat superior to the S-Classes IMO. I always found the S to have a rather spartan appearance, and kind of "old Cadillac" in a way, with that huge ugly vinly/plastic tray under the center stack. Not only does the 212's have more wood, but I find it to look more cunning and sharp. Materials however, are absolutely better in the S-Class. However, all those silver-y buttons in the S, and leather-y surfaces don't age so well if mistreated, as you can see in some Used S-Classes. I guarantee the W212's will hold up better, so that in itself could be seen as better "quality". To me, the best of both worlds would be ideal.

It does lack lots of curvaceous, cascading, warm, and "organic" qualities, which the W211 has. However, once you get what the Designers were going for, I find it to tell the story very well: Rigid, logical, solid, no nonsense, with added pizzaz and flair. It's exactly the character of the 212. The W211 has a soft, elegant, homely, round character, which its interior nails as well.

Anyway, I saw a stock F10 today, in black, and the angle I saw it at made me swoon. My friends all think it looks generic, and character-less, but I get the design. I love my W212, but I wouldn't kick an F10 with M-Pack out of my garage. IMO BMW and M-B are at their Sedan best with these two cars, and they're back in their rightful places, design wise. M-B with the hard edged, stately and purposeful, fancy E, and BMW with the curvaceous, smooth, svelt, elegant 5-Series'. This time around M-B has a design that's more of a style "statement" in this Class per-se, while BMW toned down the polarizing elements.

steelgrey

It is my opinion that the E class coupe and the Cabriolet have played a role in overall E class sales. I for one would not be driving a Benz if it were not for the release of the E coupe. Yes, I know it is built on a C platform as is the Cabriolet. But when optioned up it is not inexpensive. The new C coupe is ten inches narrower and about 2 inches shorter. Although 2 inches is not a lot, the overall design makes the C look smaller. To me the E coupe looks longer than it actually is. As far as interiors go. I feel that the interior of the coupe is appropriate for the exterior styling (I have the wood wheel option which enhances the interior). As much as K-A is a sedan guy. I am a coupe guy. The problem is our respective ages. He should be driving a coupe and at 64 I should be driving a sedan. So much for MB's demographics.

Wig

I don't know what the actual demographics for MB ownership are, but my view is that the 'old man's car' theory is exaggerated.

Personally, I don't view MBs as being for old guys, although I accept that I may be in the minority.

steelgrey

Feeble attempt at humor. I don't believe it's an old guy's car either.

FEGELEIN

My friend just bought a 5 that is all wheel drive, has the M package and an M tuned engine that has 400+hp. Is that the car the OP is referring to? It is sweet as hell. He didn't go M5, because he needed AWD.