GregTR

Sure, because an E400 rides better, has way nicer interior and amenities, safety and technology, and ultimately it's just an overall better car than an E350 which is an utter turd...

As to the re: jealousy reference, I'm pretty sure everyone who owns an E350 had a choice between a BMW and a Merc and the choice had very little to do with global sales figures, 0-60 times, skidpad numbers, or the price difference or any of the things you list pro-BMW whether it's factual, a pipe dream or your personal opinion. If you show me a 7 seater F11 in the US I might look at it. Until then I'd say the E350 wagon has the BMW beat, hands down and maybe it is the very reason why they command 100% market share. Because the only thing that mattered to me between the two were whether one was available or not. I can't really say much on the sedan front as I was never in the market for one but to me it would come down to how I personally feel about each of these fantastic cars that can cost as much as my first house did.

You can argue all day every day how the BMW beats the Mercedes in all the objective and subjective metrics and we can ever assume that you are correct in all of those things (which you aren't BTW) the fact remains: there are plenty who preferred the E350 over the BMW F10. You just can't fathom why and that is OK, you don't have to understand it. But to troll and berate because of this choice is just moronic... (Yeah I'll keep calling you names until the cows go home because your douchebaggery deserves it, Mr. a-hole)

K-A

I already covered that I understand why someone would choose an E350. Let me be straight here: The last thing I want is for BMW to sell more 5's, I'm way too vein. And the last thing I want is various members from this board taking their grumpy energy to Bimmers. But that doesn't eliminate the many facts stating the F10 is a (much) better objective car. If I was sensitive in my choice too and had no factual rebuttles, I'd resort to ending the debate about the cars and start throwing sand at the person making them too.

Fact is, these are cars, and one is better than the other. No need to take it personally (though I love the insults, keep them coming as it proves how right I am about not only the cars, but the demographic M-B's now seem to attract). When it's said that the F10 is a better handling car, smoother riding over rough roads, has more refined interior materials, makes lower sound db's inside, comes with way more tech, has a vastly more comprehensive UI (and much larger high resolution screen), faster computer speeds all arund, has a much better transmission (flawless ZF8 speed VS crap M-B 7G), much more comprehensive Sport/Comfort modes, a REAL paddle shift system that let's you control the car with no override, a Sport+ Mode that disables Traction Control but keeps on EPS (which you can also disable yourself if you're dumb/crazy enough) automation in areas the E is still analogue (Brake Hold, moonroof sliding door, etc.), is substantially more solid (30% more, factual figure), gets better safety ratings, sells vastly more, nearly didn't change aesthetically at all for its facelift to remain the segment top seller/leader, has standard leather (even Nappa for free now if you select a "Line"), gives you the benefit of a TRULY rare M Sport package with a TRUE M suspension (starting in 2013) as there's a premium put on it (thankfully so every Joe/Jane doesn't look the same in their cars a'la E Class with its ubiquitous "Sport" free package), has HUD, more comprehensive options list, outperforms the E GREATLY in both 535i vs E350 and 550i vs E550 trims (and gets better efficiency per HP), has 19's as standard on its sport trim, etc. etc. That isn't smack talking you, that's stating facts and truths.

Not to mention, the E350 sounds loud and coarse at high RPM's but doesn't go anywhere. The 535i has one of the best sounding motors out there (utterly racy at high RPM's), being an Inline 6 is one of the ONLY inherently balanced motors in production, makes PEAK (which is lots) torque at 1,200 RPM which is basically idle (and holds it throughout the powerband), etc. the drivetrains are no match, despite M-B's best current efforts. The 5 being based on a 7 Series chassis which is also shared with a Rolls Royce, VS the E and its stretched C chassis explains many ways how the F10 is an inherently better luxury car and holds its higher sticker price more authentically.
When all else fails, throw sand. I'll stick to facts and firsthand experiences.

drsaab

Yup Greg tr We all had the choice of what to buy. Could not find the 1% of BMW 5 non XI models that have the exact "m suspension" in the exact year for the correct transmission and exact options. The 99% of the 5 series are "bloated" by the experts KA own definition. Add drivers assist and you have 0.001% of 5 series that are high tech amazing driving cars. Then KA says the e is more reliable. So that 0.001% car you got, if you don't fall out and die while driving it for 3 years. You have to junk it or get new high performance fuel pumps, Injectors, Trannies and turbos replaced post warranty.

This thread is great entertainment for sure.

Awesome choice KA

K-A

Man up guys, compare your cars or stop whining. I know what I know and what I've researched. If you can't stand hearing about what the 5 does better in an thread designated toward the 5 comparing to the E, take it up with M-B to design a better E Class next time.

Nowhere here does it say you chose the wrong car. The only ones painting that picture is you, and I apologize to bring about some inferiority complex but that isn't my intent. If you like the E, great, but even on an M-B board, you can't expect to not hear things you don't want to hear.

Fact is, I know the W212 and F10 like the back of my hand. I've driven, dissected, studied, and devoted tons of time and effort into both of them.

And yes, the F10 with M suspension is kind of a newer option (2013) and it fixes pretty much every dynamic issue people had with the early ("Mercedes like") F10's, and current Xi models (which all come with the basic Base suspension).

BMW has been a mess with how they equip the F10, resulting in various different impressions. But fact remains, if you haven't tried a 2013 or much preferably 2014 RWD M Sport (comes with M suspension) with Sport Auto trans, then your previous impressions don't apply to the newest and perfected F10 setup. It's night and day, literally like a different car.

GregTR

No you don't. You've owned a single sample of each at one point in time and read stuff on the interweb.

I'm a runner who suffered a stress fracture, anterior tibial tendinitis, Achilles tendinitis on both legs and I read up about all these injuries so I'm pretty much an orthopedic surgeon by now...

You're just a loudmouth that is all you are...

K-A

Aww. And yes, I know these cars way too well for my own good, and I've owned 3 E Classes, 2 W212's, I know what I'm talking about between these two cars much more than you do, and that isn't an insult, it's a fact.

GregTR

If by "I know what I'm talking about" you mean stating your personal opinion and quoting statistical sales data, sure you're an expert... A self proclaimed one with a chip the size of a V8 on your shoulder...

K-A

Actually I've been making it rain in this thread with facts, information and stats between the F10 and how they relate to the W212, which has in fact enlightened informed members here (though in the wrong ways in their minds as said stuff happens to not be pro-MB) along with expressed my opinions.

For example, did you know that the F10 is factually 30% stiffer/more solid than the E chassis? That the F10 is literally on a shrunken chassis that houses the 7 Series and RR Ghost (and 6 Series').... i.e a chassis designed for cars that go from $100-$300+K (which explains why it's so overengineered as a Luxury Car) compared to the E that sits on a modified C chassis that was a trial/error first-time attempt by M-B (which explains its imbalance)? The F10 is on a chassis engineered for cars WAY more expensive than it, while the E is on a chassis engineered for a car that's cheaper than it. Or when the M suspension became available? Or the sales data? Or the insane torque curve, etc. etc. How about how it feels to drive 2 floaty W212 E350 "Sports" through the exact same rough roads that jar you and the entire cars over a period of combined 30+K miles, only to go over it in your tighter, better handling, bigger wheel'd, quieter F10 without a quiver, sound or imbalance? You surely didn't, based on how your reacting. Sorry if it's not what you want to hear, but it's valid and experience and factual based, objective data, based on cold hard fact and/or experienced firsthand "data".

alanme123

So... like you said the E350 is lower priced than the 535. Then why don't we compare the E350 with the 528 because its technically the same comparison that you are doing and obviously the difference in price points doesn't matter to you. For around the same price, a E350 would be a better performance car than the 528 and they are both the entry level cars. So does this mean the w212 wins and is a perfect car? lol

It is a well known fact that the E350 is significantly cheaper than the 535. I don't deny that the 535 is a better performance based car than the E350. You said it yourself that that is why the E350 is cheaper than the 535. Now that the price difference is brought up, what really justifies that the E350 is a direct competitor to the 535? Your opinion? How is that a comparison when a 535 is 10k more expensive than the E350?

Let me look at the comparison a different way. For 10k less I get practically the same performance car with miniscule difference in engines and 0-60 times, and the supposedly awesome F10 suspension?

I'm pretty sure that most of the people when choosing between these two cars aren't looking at the 0-60 times but instead they would pay more attention to your door lock problem on your perfect F10. They would pay more attention that there are crap runflat tires instead of regular ones and a smaller trunk space on a f10 than the W212. If people like the F10 suspension more, its just because they simply like them more. Your sole opinion, a review you found online, and some of your bimmer friends make you able to say that your F10 suspension is better? That is why there are test drives and depending on the driver, they will choose which car is better suited for them. You cant tell a person is wrong because they feel that a Mercedes is more comfortable than a BMW.

You tell us to compare the cars. I'm sure that for the most part engine power isn't on everybody's top of the list. And if it is down to comparing performance, why isn't it comparing cars at the same price range?

K-A

I understand your points and DO agree largely with what you say, remember I'm not here trying to sway people, but stating facts I know and my experiences sans any sugar coating whatsoever. I even said I think the pre-facelift E design is a "masterpiece", I haven't heard many others speak that highly about it. But, like I've listed out, the supremacies of the F10 go WAY past simply performance.

But you have a point between 528i vs E350. However, fact remains that the 6 cylinders and listed HP amounts are what make the E350 and 535i considered competitors (535i of course is highly underrated from the factory), and the MSRP is closer between the F10 and E350 than E350 and 528i. The reason the 535i is more expensive than its "competitor" E350 is because it's a more inherently expensive car. You don't get all those tech upgrades, better/stiffer/more luxury inspired chassis, better performance, better engine, tranny, more technology, bigger/better screen, better safety scores, standard leather, better interior materials, bigger available wheels and all that other stuff for free. In fact, compared to other cars out there and knowing the inherent engineering that goes into the F10, IMO it's the best value on the market today. This car is basically a re-skinned, sized down version of multiple cars that cost a ton more than it.

However, an E350 vs 528i would be a much different argument and topic, I don't know which I'd pick between the two. I hate 4 cylinders for that grotesque sound and that cheap-y feel, so I might choose the E350 over a 528i, though I'd miss everything else about the F10 itself.

As for most people in this segment, well it seems they love whatever the F10 is doing. Every previous E Class outsold the 5 Series worldwide, and the F10 in an instant honestly crushed the E in sales, took over its market share and ran away with it. When you factor out E Coupe/Vert sales, it's not even close, the F10 has no truly-close competition when it comes to sales.

And remember, E350's regularly get discounted to be cheaper than 528's even sell for, so there's no pricing advantage.

alanme123

There is no question that the I6 engine is better than the V6 on the W212. However, with a 10k price difference I am sure that most people will be looking into that more. It is a huge sum of money on the line to get a "better" performance car. A Honda accord can have a V6 engine and 278 HP, but that doesn't mean we start comparing that to the W212. The price difference is simply the entire reason why we don't compare these two cars.

If we are to compare to the US models of the W212 and F10, then I think US figures should be used in order for a more accurate comparison for everybody's sake here.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01...s-figures.html

According to this, The E class outsold the 5 series 69.8k to 56.9k respectively. The E class also outsold the 5 in 2012. You said that those numbers factor in E Coupe/Vert sales .Also, I do not see why its even a problem in putting in those E Coupe/Vert numbers in. They are E class vehicles, with E class engines and everything else aside from the chasis. Even if those "inflated" numbers are taken out, I highly doubt that 18.48% of the E class sales are E Coupe/Vert. Those numbers should not even impact the big difference in sales number in the US.

K-A

The U.S figures are actually a poorer calculator because E350's are leased for peanuts out here, and even 528i's lease for higher.

Also, the E Coupe/Vert definitely account for enough sales to make it look like the E actually sells more. I see them all the time. They shouldn't be counted against the 5 Sedan as they aren't Sedans, and they aren't even real "E" Classes, they're C Classes. If BMW made a "5 Coupe" based on the 3 Series and counted that toward their sales, the numbers would go ridiculously (unwarrantedly) high as well. Also, you have to factor in the E Wagon which barely sells, but that mixed with the Coupe and Vert and AMG Sedan/Wagons you have a number that makes tricks people into thinking the E sells more. Funny, however that with all those efforts to "inflate", the 5 line still ran past then crushed the E in global sales.

As for pricing. The E350 is $51,400 while the 535i is $55,100 (starting prices), so you do have a good point there. However, like I said, engine is just one of many factors I broke down where the F10 is an inherently superior package (some factual basis' I used, some opinionated and based on personal perception). Also, the 535i being a superior vehicle to the more expensive E400 on many levels still, shows that the inherent F10 is just a class above the W212, it's my opinion but I think looking at all aspects of both cars, it's simply truth, which I honestly have thought since the second I got acquainted to the F10, and especially once I got to know both of them up-close and personally.

We can use the pricing in the F10's favor as well. As I think the 528i motor isn't inferior enough to the E350's (they actually get about the same performance to very similar performance as BMW tends to get its power down to the ground more effectively, and the Turbo 4 has a straighter powerband than the E350's kind of sluggish for the HP rating V6, "sluggish" in many ways because low end torque is lacking, not to mention peak torque as well) to justify it being cheaper at all, considering the basis, handling, ride, technology, interior isolation, tactile/material quality, chassis strength, etc. are still inherently better than the E350's.

I know someone who just went from a 2012 or 2013 E350 to a 528i (no sport or any package), and she seems to like the 528i more due it being "more modern, more sporty, more technology, nicer interior". Though I think she's not crazy about the sounds and nature of the 4 cylinder. I'd say the E350 and 528i are closer in comparison than the 535i and E350, but I think a lot of that has to do with M-B unable to match what BMW did with their 6 cylinder offering, therefore naturally having to have it priced cheaper.

Airmousam

So, youre saying when the w213 come out the w212 will be up there with the most polarizing E of all time? Lol, youre killing me man

The f10 is probably an epic car, I have little doubt there...and if it didnt have that fugly bimmer grill I might give it a shot...just cant get past that, but thats just me. Totally uninspiring, and falls flat...

My buddy and I were talking about that door latching issue last nite, and between us, (he a caddy guy) Could not ever recall having that happen on any car in 35 years (let alone twice!), and he had a pinto and i had a maverick...what was the final resolution to that issue, was it fixed~resolved prior to you trading or selling?

GregTR

Me thinks you have no concept of difference between facts vs. anecdotal evidence...

How about all those E200s and E200 CDIs that roam the European countryside? I bet they're even more "sluggish" not to mention their utter lack of power. I'm shocked Mercedes even dares to put out such puny engines in a luxury vehicle. Geez! What were they thinking? The only difference between an E350 and an E400 is the engine. I'm sorry, but the engine does not make the car. Sure, it affects driving characteristics and acceleration but it is a small part of the whole package. So trying to argue that one car is way superior because it can cover 0-60 0.5 seconds faster than the other is lame.

I also love it how you spin the price difference of the Mercedes to your advantage no matter what. One day you'll argue that the E-class is practically whored out for pennies because it has to be otherwise it wouldn't sell and it is discounted 20% off MSRP while MBW would never ever have to resort to such trickery then on the other day you'll quote MSRP as say "look it's only $4k cheaper and it still is far inferior". So which one is it? Is the MB a marginally worse vehicle in your opinion than the BMW for significantly less money or is it a relative turd for practically the same cost?

I keep saying that the things you point out as negatives are actually positives. Who cares what platform a 2-door E-class sits on? I'd argue it the other way and say that "look, the chassis the C-class rides on is so good that it can be used for a 2-door mid-size as well". Or the other favorite of yours about how cheap the E-class sells for, I'd say "Look, what costs BMW $X to make, Mercedes can do for $Y less". All the other crap you throw around about torsional rigidity numbers means nothing to 99.99% of the people who buy either of these vehicles. FWIW the Audi A8 has lower number than the W212 so it's clearly an inferior car not to mention that even the Mazda RX-8 has the W212 beat.

GregTR

BMW F10 5er vs Mercedes Benz W212 E-Klasse Body Rigidity

"I stated that I have a few points: Roof Strength Stats, Side Impact Photo's, and an Award that support my belief that the E-Class has a stronger body. Not to mention W212 HSS % figures (no notation on the F10's, so I'll guess that the W212's is higher, but I have no proof), and some safety cage movement detected in the F10's wheel and pedal NCAP figures." - K-A


LOL! I guess K-A can argue vehicle stiffness and strength either way, depending on what he currently drives or what point he is trying to make. You, sir are an epic troll. Nicely played.

Edit: Read the entire thread, it's hillarious to see K-A argue the other side of the coin with equal enthusiasm and idiocy. He got slammed by others on that board like he did here for the exact same stupid reasons. Note that he got banned on that board, it'd be a nice change if the same thing happened here...

Airmousam

That was good reading right there

USCGTO

anytime and every time a BMW reference is made out here, anywhere on this forum, K-A just rushes to it to defend his purchase to defend the brand and to basically declare that MB is lost and pathetic.

I am not siding with him, nor am I opposing him, but at the same time I always expect to read his response on these topics..lol.

DerekACS

GregTR: if you make this a motion, I'll gladly 'second' !!!!

DerekACS

He publishes numerous and similar anti-MB rants on Mercedes forums in the United Kingdom.
Apparently, the audience of MB fans on this forum is not large enough for his vast volume of hatred for the marque.

Moderator: please spare us from having to read any more drivel from this 'epic troll' !

Airmousam

http://www.germancarforum.com/commun...t.47815/page-4

Interesting forum actually, some significant E and general benz bashing (along with the non stop glowing praise of the ultimate driving machine) from our friend...There cant be fewer than 150 comments on this an other forums from him on the star grill. My god, beating a dead horse is a gross understatement. Give it rest...ya you dont like it or benz for that matter....we get it...

GregTR

http://www.germancarforum.com/commun...28#post-596077

"I dunno how it works worldwide, but if it's anything like the U.S, where it's MUCH cheaper to Lease a 5er than it is an E-Class, I'm sure that's why its sales are higher. As for Audi, they just have all kinds of momentum for some reason.


As for comparisons, M-B's aren't built to win sporting comparisons. If these comparo's were about which car is the softest, most comfortable and serene, most reliable and solid, the E would probably win every single one (that's whsy buyers in this segment really want anyway, hence the 5er getting softened up into an aloof luxury wafter this time around)." - K-A

It's truly amazing what you can dig up with a simple post search by user on that forum from the end of 2012.

GregTR

I also used to think that K-A must be this 60 something retired "old fart" (No offense to 60+ visitors) having too much time in front of the keyboard. Turns out he's a 32 year old yuppy punk with no kids no wife and apparently no life, the exact type of person MB is going attract with the more dynamic look of the E-class and the CLA and he oh so much despises.

finman

[QUOTE=GregTR;5945545]http://www.germancarforum.com/commun...28#post-596077

"I dunno how it works worldwide, but if it's anything like the U.S, where it's MUCH cheaper to Lease a 5er than it is an E-Class, I'm sure that's why its sales are higher. As for Audi, they just have all kinds of momentum for some reason.


As for comparisons, M-B's aren't built to win sporting comparisons. If these comparo's were about which car is the softest, most comfortable and serene, most reliable and solid, the E would probably win every single one (that's whsy buyers in this segment really want anyway, hence the 5er getting softened up into an aloof luxury wafter this time around)." - K-A

It's truly amazing what you can dig up with a simple post search by user on that forum from the end of 2012.


Yikes... well, give a guy a break... if you had over 13,000 posts between the two websites you might get confused as well...

how long do you think it takes to get to 13,000 posts?.... and thats just on two websites....

DC-IT

LOL! On that same germancarforum this is what K-A posted when he was a M-B fanboy:

"Whoa whoa whoa!

I just looked up weight figures.

E350 Sport: 3774
535i: 4030
A6 2.0 "2WD": 3891

Shockingly, the Benz is the lightest! More shocking, considering it has that "Heavy brick solid Benz look", while the other two strive to visually convey a more lightfooted nature. I don't doubt that M-B provides the most advanced construction of the trio already (surely more than the 5, while the Audi would give it a better run). Not only does its shell hold up better than the F10's in after crash pictures, but it's lighter. The W212 did win "Best Bodyshell" in 2009, when it came out, winning over the Audi R8, Jaguar XJ, amongst all others. So it shouldn't be surprising, but as a driver of it, it's nice. "

And another post"

"That's subjective of course. The W212 is the most popular E-Class to date, and I can attest that my W212 gets compliments and positive attention at a rate that my W211 never saw. That said, I like both about equally, as if I were referring to my children, but for very different reasons (they're very different demeanors).

In the U.S, to non brand fanboys/girls it seems that the W212 is a more popular and attention garnering car than the F10, for example. Sales figures are especially telling, considering the E60 crushed the W211 in Sales, and the W212 is selling more than the 1 year newer F10. Not only did the W212 bring the E-Class back to the table, regarding Sales in the U.S VS the BMW competitor, but it's just so damn good, it left BMW at that table and went to an even better table. This is even despite the fact that it has lacked in HP and MPG VS the 5-Series, which IMO is a full testament to the W212's design and quality. Of course, starting with 2012 MY's, the E's HP and MPG "statistics" are fixed.

It definitely goes without saying that they will smooth out the angles on the next E though. The W212's art is fully angular, purposefully so, so I doubt M-B will try and out-do it, rather than take it in a different direction."

Suddenly when he got his F10 he has to justify his purchase by embarking on a mission to bash M-B every opportunity he gets.

GregTR

The kid has lost all credibility, not that he had any to begin with... There are so many "gems" and "quotable quotes" on that site from him it's not even funny. The only reason I stopped because I don't want it to look like I'm stalking him, it couldn't be further from the truth. But when you're such a douche you're bound to get caught. You can't get away with it in the age of the interwebz where every stupid word coming out of your mouth is archived for eternity.