no_mulligan

Your advice comes from someone that doesn't have the same equipment.
There are 29 events of judder. 90% come from 2010 & 2011 E550. There were design changes before and after those years. The 2010 & 2011 rotors are lightweight compared to 2009 and 2012. These are not speculations. It doesn't help people with judder but neither does your less than relevant experience. Only if you had a 2010/2011 E550 and "brake bedding" worked, then people would really listen. Do you understand the difference? That's why you should take it to a E350 post to help the good people there.

Except for ARRIE, every 2010 and 2011 E550 owner complained of judder. ARRIE change the brakes to third party because they were worn before getting to 14,000 miles.

TO every 2010 or 2011 E550 owners, I would love to hear that you don't have the judder problem and you have a minimum of 14,000 miles. Please raise your hand.

Live Oak

Oh! mleskovar! Your posts here, trying to support your so-called "bedding" solution, placing blame on the Mercedes buyers, is so tiresome.

This is a REAL Mercedes brake issue. Get your head out of the sand!

mleskovar

So help me understand .....suggestions on how to possibly solve a problem are only relevant if the suggester has experienced the same problem first hand with the same equipment? Is that the spirit of this forum? Of any forum?

Nor are they a meaningful sample. Your stats don't match those I received from a "scripted" (to me) answer from an MB tech which is .5%

See above. I'm curious why anyone would think only knowledge gained from first hand experience is superior to any other kind of knowledge. Why do we even bother with books anymore?

mleskovar

Jeez Louise. If I thought my suggestion would have caused this much concern I would have kept it to myself. It's obvious I support the practice of bedding. If you don't believe in it why waste your time on me? I still don't get the response to my suggestion. It's like I accused everyone of being the problem instead of the car. If this car isn't made to your usage specifications then buy aftermarket, try bedding, or dump it. I really like my 350, if it develops shudder I'll fix it or dump it. If the dealer told me it would take $700 to fix my recurring problem that they couldn't fix I'd buy aftermarket (and save money to boot). I wouldn't have even entered this thread if I thought it was hallowed ground. Suggestions are just that.

Live Oak

Precisely . . .

mleskovar

That wasn't my intent. I admitted I was in the same category so it would be like the pot calling the kettle black. There's people on both extremes of usage. If you're saying a manufacturer should account for even extreme usage then open your pocketbook. My Porterfields worked great when hot but at first or second use beware.

Live Oak

There you go again, accusing the people with the problem of "extreme usage." That's not the case!

Arrie

A little correction here.

I changed the brake pads only. The rotors in my car are original.

Why I went with the third party pads was the ridiculous brake dust issues. With ceramic pads no difference in brake performance and NO DUST.

And they are extremely easy to change too.

mleskovar

You are sensitive. "Extreme" usage is anything defined beyond design/engineering of average/normal. It's not a negative designation. It's a design/ decision. Why would I care if someone was using a product beyond it's capabilities You're assuming that I think MB decision for the brake system on 2010-2011 E5XX cars is OK. You....the user.....are saying it's not OK. I only gave you a possible work around for the situation.

mleskovar

I went to an after market pad on my last MB for the same reason. I had a little less "bite" with the aftermarket pads but the reduction in dust was worth it.

Arrie

Mr./Ms. mleskovar ( I think it is Mr.),

You mention this extreme driving again. You question if the car manufacturer should build their cars for every driving situation the car can be at.

A simple answer for this is that a car from any manufacturer should be, and I honestly think people think so, made to handle any driving situation it gets to by it's own power. This, of course, does not mean that a car going down a 10% grade faster than it could ever do on a flat road should be able to stop in the same distance.

Any car in my mind is designed for brakes than can stop the car in a set distance from a set speed. Now what is the distance is probably set by the competition between the different cars from different manufacturers.

Back to the MB. These cars are made to handle a little bit more extreme driving than you can ever experience here in the U.S. Every car maker in Germany makes the car to be able to drive at the cars maximum speed, which in Germany is posted for each car. Yes, you can get a speeding ticket on an Autobahn on a no speed limit section if you drive faster than the car's "mechanical" speed limit is. This speed limit is set by the car manufacturer.

Driving at these speeds, which I have done many, many times on Audis, MBs and BMWs, also takes some very fast slowing down and this also can happen very frequently. This is very extreme driving compared to any mode of driving that you can do here in the U.S.

These cars are made to flawlessly handle German Autobahn fast extreme driving style. If a car can's handle it there is no market for it in Germany.

So, you can stop talking about the extreme driving damaging the brakes.

Another "heads up" for you as you seem to know so much about the brakes and how the bedding helps it.

Brake rotors are made by cast. Some of them of cast iron and some from cast steel and some of what ever exotic materials between. Cast process is highly dependent on the material used and especially on the cooling process after casting the part. Cooling process is where the most fu** ups with cast parts happen, i.e. they are cooled too fast.

Too fast cooling easily causes too much martensitic steel construction. This is good for wear as it is the hardest steel construction there is but there is a catch with this.

As a brake rotor gets heated under use the heat can relieve some of this martensitic steel construction back to some softer forms of steel. This can happen at temperatures lower than you stated in some previous post that would make brake pads burn, believe or not (you probably won't but that is your problem).

The catch here is that martensitic form of the steel is also the highest in volume. Brake pads work on the rotor but normally there is an area at the outer edge where pad is not. Also the brake caliber pistons do not load the pad at the edge as strongly as in the middle. This is because the piston is not located at the edge of the pad. All this means that more heat from braking action is directed to the area away from the outer edge of the rotors.

When the rotor area inside from the outer radius gets heated and transform to less martensitic form it loses volume. Outer rim of the rotor staying in martensitic form keeps the volume. This can create a high compression internal forces in the material at the outer rim of the rotor. If this force gets too high it causes the rotor edge to buckle, i.e. a warped rotor forms.

Brake bedding will not and cannot fix this. Only a heat treatment of the whole rotor would but at the time the warped rotor is found bad enough it probably could not be used any more. Turning it straight would be an option but MB does not do that either.

A bad part is a bad part, PERIOD!!!

no_mulligan

Thanks Arrie, you remain the only one (in the 2010/2011 E550 crowd) that has not complained about the judder but you did to non-OEM pad. No worries. Just one question, what mileage are you at now?

no_mulligan

Mleskovar,
Are you skilled at problem solving tools? Apply methods like Root Cause Analysis, 5 why's, fishbone diagrams, etc. How about statistical analysis? I'm not seeing it in your post. Granted, you appear to want to help and your threw the bedding idea out. That's very acceptable when brainstorming and you made your contribution like a valued member But as more data and evidence comes in, it got put in the parking lot largely because you don't have the same equipment. Imagine if you did, more would listen. Np888 told you it didn't work. You keep saying that not everybody (I guess you have to be referring to 25 posters that drive 2010/2011 E550) experiences the problem because some MB mechanic you met at the massage table said 1/2 %. OMG! That must mean that there are 5000 other people on this board driving those model years WITHOUT the problem. I challenge you to find 100! Do you understand why you should stop saying that? There is a saying that says it's okay to accept facts but verify. Your knowledge maybe suited in other areas but your credibility is taking a hit here. Take some advice and start a thread for E350 brakes instead.


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BlackOmega

If this has already been addressed, disregard.


Unlike most of the people here, I am a professional technician at a luxury car dealership. I have worked on cars for over 23 years. I have worked on almost all makes and models barring a few exotics.

Bedding pads is kind of BS IMHO. There is such a thing as seating the pads to the rotors, basically wearing the pads in slightly to match the rotor surface perfectly.

From what I know of brakes, there is no material left on the rotor surface while braking at any sort of speed. Yes some material may be left on the rotor face after a stop and then moving it slightly forward, but that gets scraped away next time it moves.
If the bedding theory were true, and the rotor surface was actually coated with some friction material from the pads, if you were using a non-metallic organic pad, then your rotors wouldn't rust when it rains. Fact of the matter is, they do rust, and very quickly.
Warping is caused from excessive heat. Plain and simple. There's no such BS as there is more friction material in one spot than another. It's all metal. (EDIT: I believe I need to clarify this somewhat, warping is caused by abrupt temperature changes, from hot to cold or cold to hot, i.e if your brakes are hot and you drive through a deep puddle, the rapid removal of heat from the rotor will, more than likely, cause warpage. )
Anytime we have a complaint of pulsation (it's not shudder or judder, that's something different altogether) it is always the same thing. The rotors are, in fact, warped. I can measure the run-out with a dial indicator, and then I can confirm it on our brake lathe where I can shave off increments as low as 0.002" of an inch. That's less than the thickness of a human hair.

If there are so many complaints about the brakes on these cars, then I'd say there is definitely something wrong with them. It could even be a casting issue where one portion of the rotor was cooler than another. That will inevitably affect expansion rates and cause pulsation.

While yes aggressive driving can and will cause pulsation, with the sheer size of the brakes on these vehicles, that really shouldn't be an issue unless you're doing emergency style stops at high speeds (120+). As a matter of fact, just yesterday I was going a little faster than I should have, and had to jam on the brakes. Still no pulsation. I just did the brakes on my car and the rotors are at the service limit for turning. I checked them when I arrived at home and sure enough, there was a blue ring around the rotor. That's how hot they had gotten. Still no pulsation.

From what I've found with cars that warp front rotors frequently, is that the back brakes are either inadequate, or they're not functioning properly. i.e they're out of adjustment or the load level sensor is not supplying the correct input to the proportioning valve and the rear brakes aren't braking as hard as they should be.

For what it's worth there's things that people need to know about driving aggressively and their brakes. Since street vehicles need brakes that last, there are a lot of compromises that are inherent to the brakes. Semi-metallic, ceramic, etc. friction materials so they don't make noise, and last. Because of this, you can't simply jump on the brakes really hard. You have to ease into the brakes. Let them warm up a bit before you can really get into them. Unlike race car brakes where they heat up VERY quickly and therefore you can lay into them really hard. A lot of race cars also use fully metallic brake pads since longevity and noise aren't a concern.
Another tip, if you do have to get on the brakes really hard for whatever reason, the next several times you brake, give yourself more room and brake lightly. This will help the rotors cool down slower and prevent pulsation.
I have used this technique on several cars after high speed runs and have had great results. I've braked hard enough at some ridiculous speeds that the grease from my wheel bearings liquified and ran down my wheels. Needless to say that really hot since the grease was Mobil1 Synthetic.

There's definitely an issue with the brakes on those E550's. Whether it be a casting flaw, or inadequate rear braking is yet to be determined.

thekurgan

While you're a mechanic, and probably a very good one, you've obviously not spent any time in competitive high speed driving events. Brake deposits are extremely common, especially when using stock brake bads. Brake pads are made from organic and inorganic materials, they are not 100% metal. In addition, pads need to be designed for an operating temperature range that is comfortable for everyday driving in a variety of climates. Wide range pads, suitable for light track duty and daily driving, provide a quiet, linear bite experience. Race pads are noisy, have an very linear bite only when hot and are rotor destructive. There is a reason for a "cool down" lap and not leaving your foot on the pedal after such events, as well as utilizing the drum-in-disc parking brake.

I will agree that there is some cast iron deformation with these rotors as they're probably cheap Chinese junk. Maybe MB made a supplier change and went to a heavier/thicker rotor; it's all conjecture at this point, thicker isn't always better. My diagnosis from the MB specialist was: "excess deposits, unable to remove, replace rotors and pads under warranty".

BlackOmega

I can totally agree that under racing situations that a street pad could definitely achieve a temperature high enough to where the friction material could feasibly liquify and leave deposits (and boil the brake fluid). However, the problem here is that these people are getting warpage under normal driving conditions. Although, it's really hard to say as we've never seen these people drive. Maybe they hammer the brakes like they're racing.
My mother actually does this. She'll be cooking along at 85, someone 1/4 mile up touches their brakes and she just hammers the brakes. I used to replace her rotors and pads 3 times per year because of her driving. Didn't matter whether it was cheapo Chinese junk or OE, end result was always the same --blue rotors. SO I just kept buying $20 pads and $15 rotors. I'd know they'd only last 3-4 months. Not to mention with how badly they would pulsate, the front end would shake itself apart. Inner and outer tie-rods, balljoints and wheel bearings about once a year too.

And you're right the pads aren't fully metallic like racing pads either. However, from what I've seen of most brakes and their operation, under normal circumstances, is that they scrape away any deposits that are left on them.

Hey all of you E550 drivers, I want you to try something next time you're driving. When you're coming to a stop, as you're braking let up and push the brakes again. Does the pedal come up?

EDIT: Also, I find it hard to believe that there were excess deposits that couldn't be removed from your rotors. Unless you have some sort of crazy composite rotors that you aren't supposed to resurface, it sounds like BS to me. You can remove A LOT of material from an OE MB rotor before it's at discard.

MinnBobber

mleskovar,
thanks for trying to educate folks on brake bedding. I agree but hesitate to jump in and get jumped on by the nay sayers.
I'll add 1.an analogy and then 2.technical info from brake pad/rotor companies where brakes / brake research is their specialty. I tried to
summarize/ condense/ highlight it down from pages of info/data/ findings.
3. why doesn't MB recommend it? My opinion why.

1. MB E550 brakes may have a predisposition toward brake judder.
The brake experts agree that proper brake bedding helps eliminate judder.
Analogy: if your family has a predisposition toward cancer, wouldn't you
want to focus on diet and exercise to help. It might not ward of cancer but
it surely will help.
Bedding brakes may not ward off all judder but it certainly will help. It will
increase the odds of trouble-free brakes.

2. Bedding allows your brakes to reach their full potential. Until they are bedded, your brakes simply do not work as well as they can. Proper bedding improves pedal feel, reduces or eliminates brake squeal, prevents (and often cures) brake judder, reduces brake dust, and extends the life of your pads and rotors.
After the break-in cycle, there should be a slight blue tint and a light gray film on the rotor face. The blue tint tells you the rotor has reached break-in temperature and the gray film is pad material starting to transfer onto the rotor face. This is what you are looking for. The best braking occurs when there is an even layer of of pad material deposited across the rotors. This minimizes squealing, increases braking torque, and maximizes pad and rotor life.
Bedding changes the brakes from adhesive friction (pad on metal) to adherent friction (pad on transferred pad material).
The adherent mechanism is altogether different. In an adherent system, a thin layer of brake pad material actually transfers and sticks (adheres) on to the rotor face. The layer of pad material, once evenly established on the rotor, is what actually rubs on the brake pad. The bonds that are broken, for the conversion of Kinetic to Thermal energy, are formed instantaneously before being broken again. It is this brake pad-on-transferred brake pad material interaction on a molecular level that yields the conversion process.

The all-important transfer layer
As stated above, the objective of the bed-in process is to deposit an even layer of brake pad material, or transfer layer, on the rubbing surface of the rotor disc. Note the emphasis on the word even, as uneven pad deposits on the rotor face are the number one, and almost exclusive cause of brake judder or vibration.
Let's say that again, just so there is no misunderstanding. Uneven pad deposits on the rotor face are the number one, and almost exclusive cause of brake judder or vibration.
It only takes a small amount of thickness variation, or TV, in the transfer layer (we're only talking a few ten thousandths of an inch here) to initiate brake vibration. While the impact of an uneven transfer layer is almost imperceptible at first, as the pad starts riding the high and low spots, more and more TV will be naturally generated until the vibration is much more evident. With prolonged exposure, the high spots can become hot spots and can actually change the metallurgy of the rotor in those areas, creating “hard” spots in the rotor face that are virtually impossible to remove.

They also add that it is almost impossible to warp a modern rotor. About the only way is using a street pad on a racetrack in racing conditions. What people call warped rotors are rotors with uneven brake pad deposits-- yielding high and low spots. Proper brake bedding helps eliminate that.
It may not totally eliminate it and you have to do it properly--where you
see a blue tint from the high temp and a light grey transfer film.

3. And why doesn't MB recommend brake bedding in their owners manual?
I believe it's a "lawsuit" issue. There would be that .1% that performs brake bedding on the freeway , in traffic, slowing repeatedly from 60 mph to
15 mph and they get rear-ended. "MB told me to do this" > lawsuit.

Let the flaming begin......

Arrie

47 682 miles.

Arrie

I have never had a car with brake pad deposits on the rotor surface, NEVER!!

On my current E550 brake rotors are extremely clean without any kind of deposits on them. I don't have blue color either.

The ONLY bedding the brakes need is when you replace pads only. Yes some "experts" say you should not do pads only but I do. And so do the dealer too.

As the rotors wear they never wear totally flat surface. The rotor ends up having rings in the surface. When a new pad is put on a rotor like this the contact naturally is only at the high points on the rings first. This is when I bed my brakes, i.e. right after new pads are on I go drive a few miles using brakes lightly even dragging them just to wear the pads to match the rings on rotor surface. Of course, this procedure can be done with new rotors and pads too but in my opinion is completely unnecessary as the new parts have flat surfaces.

Before bedding the new pads on used rotors brake performance is not at the best level but after this wear-in procedure there is nothing else to do.

What comes to brake pad material layer on the rotors I can say that if that happens then your brakes got very severely over heated and if this layer is uneven on the rotor you will get bad brake performance. But after cleaning it off it should be fine unless warped rotor has occured.

Having a layer of pad material on the rotor on purpose is BS to me. If this would actually happen and the braking process would happen between the layer of the pad material on the rotor and the pad itself then it would mean that the rotor would not wear. This would be just great. No need to replace rotors ever! But we know it is not like that.

BlackOmega gave very good info about the brakes and how he has found the rotors actually warped every time a customer complains about pulsating brakes. He has been able to measure this and obviously his shop has a lathe to correct the defect but it does not come true if this is actually done in his shop. It would be VERY INTERESTING to know if the rotors actually are re-machined for flat surfaces and THEN it would be EVEN MORE INTERESTING to know if the re-machined rotors customers comes back again for the same issue?

I gave my opinion in my previous post about the material manufacturing problem as a reason for warped rotors, i.e. the cast rotor is cooled too fast leaving it to too rich in martensitic form. Heat from braking then "relieves" rotor material back to less martensitic form in the areas where most heat is generated. These areas are away from the very outer edge of the rotor creating very high internal material compression forces at the edge of the rotor. This can warp the rotor. After a rotor has experienced this once and then re-machined flat the rotor probably would not do it again so the re-machining could be much better fix for the problem than replacing the rotors, which MB dealers only do. The new rotors seem to be the same junk as the repeat problems show.

What comes to extreme driving. On the roads here in U.S. we cannot do extreme driving. Ok, someone somewhere but none of the people having the brake issues have done it. These cars are made to handle speeds twice as high as what we can legally drive anywhere in our country.

Twice the speed means 4-times the Kinetic energy that the brakes must change to heat to stop the car, which means that with our normal driving the car should be able to very easily handle all braking situatins with only the front brakes. Performance of the front brakes alone is designed to a lot higher performance than they ever experience with our speeds even if the rear brakes were gone.

This takes it back to the same as I have said so many times before:

A BAD BRAKE ROTOR IS A BAD BRAKE ROTOR!

no_mulligan

Family having cancer? It's more like everybody with 2010 & 2011 550 (except for Arrie) unless your buddy mleskovar starts pulling bodies out of the woods.
A family with cancer wants to focus on the cure. NP888 has tried the evangelical spell and it didn't work. I hope you won't label NP888 as an aggressive driver and dismiss that data point. I'm sure more will try. If it works, come out and say it. You better be using same equipment in order for it to be meaningful.
I'm not a naysayer. I'm open to the idea if is proven to cure the 25+ members in this forum that put up with this problem.
Are you another e350 driver? You would be a great technical resource to mleskovar on the upcoming e350 brake thread.
Do you have any new ideas to help these disappointed owners if bedding doesn't work?
Walk to the store and eat a salad? No judder!



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thekurgan

I asked the very same question and I think it's just MB policy to not mess with the rotors in any fashion. I would think a bit of turning them down would help, but I think with the labor it would take, they simply just pull the parts off the shelf and replace them. I agree, it can be scrubbed off. Hell, even with new pads, you can scrape off some of the residual deposits. The thing is that I don't baby the brakes, nor do I abuse them. I'm 95% freeway, never leave my foot on the pedal after exiting the highway, especially in the summer. They are just some junk rotors or perhaps the pads take longer to set in when they are new. I had the new MB pads that don't dust, perhaps they are a harder compound and I found they don't give good initial bite, so you tend to lean on them and extend the usage while stopping.

tjkaz

OK, I'm going to throw my hat in this ring, as I had the brake judder on my MY2011 E550; albeit more subtle than some of the others who’ve posted. And, I will try to address some things from my research from engineering sites, vice brake company sites which are prone to marketing. Also, as a little background on me - Although I'm not an automotive engineer, I have a MS in Mechanical Engineering and do have a pretty good grasp of engineering fundamentals.

Also, apologies for the long thread.

Some brackground on my problem. I purchased my MY11 E550 as a CPO when it was only one year old (purchased Dec '11). During the test drive I noticed very slight judder but attributed it to some new braking response (my bad). But like I said, it was very slight, and I really didn't push the car too hard and was focusing on differences between the 212 versus the 211 which is the car I was coming from.

Over time, I noticed that the judder got worse after the brake rotors warmed up (not hot) from normal freeway driving. In more agressive stop and go traffic, I noticed the jugger got even worse. I was convinced that the rotors were experiencing warping after they got hot and became less warped after they cooled and began to contract back to their normal shape. My sense was that they were experiencing asymmetric thermal expansion. So why would they expand asymmetrically?? My theory follows.

First, I'd like to thank "no mulligan" for his research, and inparticular, for the weight differences in model year rotors. If his research is correct, those changes in rotor mass will result in significant differences in how the rotors heat during braking. And for brake rotors, the game is all about stopping (friction) and thermal management.

From fundamental transient heat transfer (and sparing you all the differential equation form) for a lumped-mass system, Q=mCpDT; where Q is Heat, m is the mass (rotor in this case), Cp is the specific heat of the mass, and DT is the change in temperature of the mass. Rearranging the above equation for DT gives, DT=Q/mCp. So for brake heating, Q is the heat imparted into the rotor mass from braking. As you can see by the equation, DT (or the change in temperature) of the rotor is inversely proportional to the rotor mass (m) for a given amount of heat (braking). Stated another way, dropping the mass by a factor of two will increase the change in temperature by a factor of two! Also note that I’m neglecting the convectiveheat transfer associated with rotor cooling as it would cancel out in the above analysis.

The following are my conclusions based on some reading and my own synthesis.

1. In an effort to reduce the overall car weight, MB reduced the rotorsweight too much and made the design marginal. The reduction the mass of therotors for the MY10/11 E550s resulted in causing the rotors to heat to a pointthat they would expand asymmetrically and take on “permanent set.” Permanent set is a condition when a material no longer returns to (or behaves like) its original condition after its been deformed or heated.

1a. Why asymmetric thermal expension? This could be due to how the rotors were manufactured and how the iron was casted. Also, bringing the rotors to excessively high temperatures could result in a form of "heat treating" of the iron and undoing the heat treating from the rotor manufacturer. Hence, permanent set.

2. Presuming that the design was prone to warping, why isn't everyone with a MY10/11 E550 having the same problem? As I stated, the design is marginal - meaning suitable for some conditions, but unsuitable for others.

2a. This could be due to a number of factors, such as driving conditionsand/or variations in rotor fabrication and/or rotor material properties. With respect to driving conditions, for instance, a driver who does a lot of mountainous driving could cause the rotors to heat excessively on a long downhill as the rotors will hove have a chance to dissipate their heat and cause the temperature to rise unacceptably. With respect to rotor fabrication – we don’tknow the specified tolerances on rotors nor if they come from one or multiple sources. This is why designers tend to be conservative; to accomodate variations in usage (extreme) and component tolerances.

2b. Statistics – there are a number of MY2010/2011 people on this forum who have stated that they have/had brake judder issues, and some who haven’t. But, that’s not a complete statistical sample as (I believe) most MB owners don’t participate in these forums. One would have to have access the MB maintenance database for all vehicles to get a better sense of the true statistics.

3. Brake bedding. Interesting, and Iget from the literature that it will enhance the braking performance which I don’t doubt. However, IMO not germane to this issue.

My car’s status: A couple of months ago, I took the care to my local dealer (Fletcher Jones in NB). I told them thatI had never experienced judder with any car that I have driven previously (neither my own, wife’s, friends, POS rental cars, etc.) but only on this car. I told them that I also read online that there appears to be an issue with MY2010/2011 E550s. They replaced the front rotors and pads withoutcharge, for which I’m grateful. A noticeable difference and I’m hoping that it doesn’t come back. We’ll see in several more months. I wonder if my new rotors are the new heavier design or original problematic rotors.

As for why I had the problem in the first place? As I stated in my conclusions - perhaps attributed to issues with the original rotors, the previous owners driving habits or a combination thereof.

no_mulligan

I fail to understand why members aren't drawn to you for one big reason. You are the only one that not having the problem of the 2010 & 2011 550 group.
Come clean and tell them what pad you are using. Make sure you disclose the rotor (oem right?) and the mileage.
Somebody copy this setup and verify the solution. It's that simple. Arrie may have solution for all 2010 & 2011 550 owners . Isn't that what the goal is? Everything else is noise.


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mleskovar

This seems to be what is sticking in everyone's craw. "Extreme" simply means out of design criteria. Did the design fail the people that are experiencing this problem? Yes. Feel better now? You seemed to have avoided the problem and moved on. I simply offered a possible solution to others that may be experiencing the problem. I'm not accusing people of abusing their cars or of having poor driving practices. I too fall into this category.

Why are you going on about the rotors? Don't you still have the originals and no judder?

mleskovar

6 Sigma Besides I wasn't doing any analysis...just offering a suggestion. Speaking of method, you do understand that the 2009 W211 is a different chassis don't you? And how's that data collection going? Getting more replies to match your forgone conclusion since the people are replying to a thread about warped rotors? And now that you brought up the point why are you chiming in when you don't have the problem? Isn't that another of your requisites I haven't seen any relevant facts or statistics come from anyone yet. Including you. Data and evidence coming in? Like what? How about the evidence that Arrie (not picking on you) doesn't have the problem and he's got 47K on the original rotors? Go clean your own house first.