no_mulligan

As the #101 post on this topic, I'd like to share some observations about this post.
12 people had shutter problems
5 people did not have shutter problems
Of the 12 that had problems, (1) 2012 E550, (1)2012 E Coupe, (6)2011 E550 & (4) 2010 E550.
Noteworthy is the Coupe replaced 3 times. Average mileage of shutter problem was 13,900 and the standard deviation was 6,700 miles.
Of the 5 that did not have problems, (3) 2012 E550, (1)2011 E350 & (1)2010 E550.
So far, 83% were pre-2012.
By no means is this scientific, I need more data. I know there are many of you that read the forum and stay out the fray, if not, vile tongues on the forum. Just one post. State your model, year and when your shutter started or if you had no problems. Thanks in advance.

Arrie

I don't remember posting my facts but if I did then ignore this.

I bought my 2010 E550 with 14700 miles on the clock. Original brake pads on it were almost gone. I replaced them with after market ceramic pads as MB dealer only does MB parts and I was sick of the brake dust problem.

I have NEVER had a brake vibration issue yet with my car. My car's brakes are very smooth and going to the after market pads did not change brake performance at all.

I do not know the brake history before I bought the car but I think it has the original brake rotors on it.

Pntblnk

2011 E550. July build date. Symptoms started at ~9-10,000 miles and were replaced under "consideration". Symptoms are slight at present with 26,000 miles now. I only noticed when coming down the pass at ~80mph and the cruise auto brakes to slow the car.

W210

2012 E550 4matic, no brake problems whatsoever.

Helmar

I'm strongly considering a 2014 E550 in September.

Has MB acknowledged and resolved this problem?

If not, are most E550's experiencing this, or just a few?

HBH

thekurgan

Quite possibly the old pads left more deposits on the rotors? I had the new pads on the '11 and my brakes were diagnosed with "excess deposits" which they would not remove, they chose to replace the sets.

BTW: "shutter" should be "judder".

no_mulligan

Ok, judder it is! But those that say shudder, shakes, anything is fine with me.


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no_mulligan

I scoured through 280+ post on this forum looking at 550s only. Here are my findings:
29 people had brake judder.
66% were 2011 models with judder issue averaging 14,000 mile mark.
24% were 2010 models with judder issue averaging 18,000 mile mark.
7% (or 2 posters) were 2012 models with judder problem.
3% (1 poster) was a 2012 coupe with judder problem.
A couple of poster noted that there SA said 2011 & 2010 model years have undersized brakes that were upsized for 2012. Can anyone verify this?
Data could seem to support that with 90% of complaints coming from 2010-2011 cars. Then again, maybe not enough miles on 2012 for complaints??

Arrie

MB will NEVER admit to having a brake issue like this but as they do replace a lot of brakes for it under warranty they must know about it.

If I was buying a new MB E class (or any other class with the recorded issues) I would ask the sales guy to give me a life time warranty on brake rotors and pads against warped or unevenly worn rotors or otherwise shuddering brake performance. This, of course, would not be against normally worn brake components, i.e. pads and rotors. This would ONLY be to cover the issues that the brakes should not ever have.

In any car the only issue should be the normal wear of the brake components. There should not be a reason to change brake rotors before they wear under the minimum thickness the car maker rates them for.

I would also wait until the final moment of the deal, i.e. after all negotiation is done for the purchase of the car I would put this brake "warranty" request on the table and stick to it. If they would say "NO" then I would ask another $2000 discount to have the brake job done at an independent shop after the factory warranty as it seems cars made after 2010 and also some of them have the issue.

And I would stick to this requirement and if they say "NO DEAL" I would walk away from it.

mleskovar

Good on you for doing this MBW is a small sample but still a sample. I find it odd that the symptom (shimmy ) shows up at such a high mileage. Pads that have 'imprinted' the rotor produce the symptom....slightly at first...
within a few thousand miles. And it progressively gets worse at that spot collects more material. Unless people are living with for a while until it gets unbearable.

mleskovar

Finally the truth!! This is the cause of the judder/shudder/shimmy!! It is also the major source of brake squeal!! I've hand scrubbed new rotors with #100 wet or dry to get rid of the deposits when they first start....and it works...but once imbedded solidly only a turn/grind of the rotor works and it doesn't make economic sense for the dealers to cut them.

6G Schnell

In my case it was unbearable by 7500 mi and front brakes were replaced under the warranty.
The next issue was wheel bearings.... Tighten by dealer, but brakes still vibrating.
Then I made mistake by "fixing" brakes based on "bedding" advice which made it even worse.... In addition to vibrations, added benefit was pulsating brakes.
Then paid for new brakes at 19000 mi.. As additional bonus.

Asta la vista MB is all I can say now ...

no_mulligan

What model year was your 550?

mleskovar

Yes, the forced bedding on used pads and rotors makes it worse. The process is only good for new parts and both pads and rotors have to be new.

thekurgan

On past vehicles, I've just swapped for new pads and re-bed to scrub, but the same effect. For those with deformed cast iron, that is some tremendous heat that MB hasn't addressed; it makes the vehicles (heavy vehicle too!) dangerous especially in wet conditions.

6G Schnell

2011

mleskovar

The point I've been trying to make on this thread is that they DON'T deform other than wear patterns. "Warped rotors" is an incorrect term to describe the failure. If you know how rotors are made and the material they're made from you'd understand they can't warp. If they became hot enough to warp they would literally melt the pads.

navydoc333

Agree with this statement. I knew an engineer that worked at a manufacturing plant for power steering pumps, rotors etc... He said that impurities in the medal that are poured into the cast molds cause them to settle and harden at different rates making certain areas of rotor surface softer than others... Thus uneven wear causing 'high spots' that will result in pulsation as the caliper squeezes pads down on rotor. (He explained it in much more technical terms but that was the gist)

Live Oak

When my four rotors and pads were replaced at 9,000 miles for severe pulsing, the techs measured the runout on all four rotors and published the results on the service document. The front rotors measured .005" and the rears .004"

When you consider what a rotor is and what it is supposed to do in conjunction with a pad, .005" is HUGE. (I also note that BOTH fronts came in at .005" --- interesting.)

I seriously doubt that pad material transfer would get that high --- that just doesn't seem to make sense.

Whatever the cause, "warping," "uneven hardness," whatever, that kind of defect is serious and dangerous.

Some day, some person is going to have a serious accident with injuries, and the driver will report the pulsing, and that he had reported it but was rebuffed by the dealer with threat of huge charges, and the injured parties' lawyers will initiate discovery and MB will have to turn over all data re: "pulsing" brakes. That's when MB will be sorry they didn't just issue a recall, or at a minimum a service notice to replace with improved parts on report of pulsing. Somehow I have the feeling that MB is wading into a huge liability here.

thekurgan

Agree. Brakes these days should be a no brainer for an auto manufacturer, especially Mercedes-Benz, who purports one of the safest vehicles on the road. There was obviously some cost cutting with respect to the parts and/or the supplier. Maybe some aftermarket/cryo rotors is the way to go. In the wet weather, I can see the ABS being triggered prematurely, definitely not inspiring confidence to continue driving the car.

no_mulligan

Of my research of nearly 300 postings, I have seen 90% of the complaints came from 2010 and 2011 owners. There only one 2012 sedan and one 2012 coupe that complained. Also, only one 2010 said he/she had no problems but interesting enough change pads to third party early because they were worn.

Furthermore, researching Mercedes spare parts for the following years show the weight difference of 2010 and 2011 years where MB may have made some economic decisions that brought this on.
2009 - rotor weight=25.6#, pad weight=6.13#
2010 & 2011 (same part#) - rotor weight=18.33#, pad weight=5.43#
2012 - rotor weight=35.59#, pad weight=7.94#

2009 is was the previous design but worthy to note what the brakes were before the 2010 major redesign. Curiously they didn't address the problem until 2012. From 2009 to 2010/2011 design, the rotor was trimmed 28%. That a huge percentage of mass which helps dissipate heat. From 2009 to 2012, the rotor gained 50% more mass. From 2010/2011 to 2012, the rotor gained 94% (That's almost double) more mass.

MB knew there was a problem. The specs and the real world data coincide. I feel bad for those owners. If you sell or turn in early, the car still hits the road and the complaints continue. The best thing to do is switch to a aftermarket that has a known combination of rotor and pad that has a history of success. Since there are only about 5% of all e-class cars are 550, I don't see MB doing anything to help. Rotors and pads are a wear item.

mleskovar

At the foot pedal only? Did the steering wheel shake?

Assuming that they actually measured them and didn't just make up numbers to assure receiving warranty repair reimbursement.....that would indicate part failure on all four rotors. Different parts for each axle. Too coincidental for me but not impossible. If it were a total failure of design or manufacture like that they would be inundated with complaints with every car failing and that's not happening.

Agree. I couldn't even measure it.

mleskovar

Excellent sleuthing! Where'd these numbers come from? I think you're making assumptions on weight that the materials are the same so therefore more is better though. I think all this points out is changes. It also doesn't answer the question of why every owner doesn't experience the problem. BTW, I'm not defending MB.

no_mulligan

Thank you. My engineering mind can't help but look at numbers. I make no assumptions on the materials composition, manufacturing methods, or design of the rotor (drilled, slotted, whatever..). We agree there were (weight) changes but not between 2010 and 2011. To defend MB (which you aren't doing), the basis of why that change happened must be known. Make no mistake that engineers added 37# in 2012 to the rotors & pads and that is a major weight addition when the general emphasis is reduction. I'm sure they had to justify that. That's what many owners wish they knew.

"more is better"? I'm not saying that. In fact, I'm saying they reduction for 2010 & 2011 is not favorable. So, I will say less could be worse. There is a profound difference. MB went from 25 to 18 to 35 pounds in the rotors. Back in college, I did take a class call Heat & Mass Transfer. Can't remember any formulas right now.

Why is this happening? That requires the good old scientific method. That won't be easy and I'm not volunteering. My initial reason for the post was to address the question of whether the problem was solved for 2014 models. I can't answer that. But, I know the 2012 parts aren't same as 2010/2011 models were an overwhelming complaints originate. I got the numbers from Pelican Parts. They sell OEM parts as well as third party.

I believe bedding brakes, possibly, is a countermeasure to the problem not the source.

mleskovar, am I correct in interpreting that you DON'T have a E550? People with E350 may skip this thread because it says E550. Have you ever thought about starting a thread for E350 brakes?

mleskovar

I replied to the OP because to me this is a well known generic problem....with all makes and models....and I found that brake bedding worked for me after experiencing the judder on several cars and replacing more pads and rotors than acceptable. I did offer to the OP to start a 'bedding' thread but felt this one had good steam to maybe get somewhere (post #61). Seems some people took my posts personally though. Your revelation about the rotor weights is interesting. I view it as an attempt to reduce unsprung weight rather than cost reduction though. Maybe the increase in weight for 2012 was a cost reduction? Remember coated alloy rotors? Not to sound like a broken record....but....if this were a parts design/manufacturing/quality/material problem wouldn't everyone be experiencing it? And yes, it happens on 350s as well.