Bluetec Questions
09-23-2015, 06:37 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Bluetec Questions
Anyone who is remotely interested in automobiles, and in particular German ones is following the Volkswagen saga with great interest. This is a very serious matter - so much so that today Dr. Martin Winterkorn, VW's CEO resigned following a long meeting of VW's Board of Directors.
The question about Mercedes Bluetec diesel cars is this: could similar emission testing defeat programming have been used on them?
I think it is safe to say that all manufacturers diesel models will be tested to find out in very short order. Let's keep our fingers crossed that Mercedes diesel cars, and trucks come up clean.
I found an interesting article that sheds light on how VW's cheating came to light.
Sorry to say, the article I read was in the French auto magazine AutoPlus that is a sister publication to the UK's Auto Express. Auto Express did not at this time have the same article as that posted in AutoPlus that gives a blow by blow unrolling of the VW affair. Maybe it's in translation?
One interesting point in that article indicates that VW's problems came to light after testing of a series of cars that included VW and BMW diesels. During these tests, VW diesels polluted nitrous oxide emission up to 40 times the authorized limits. Only the BMW X5 stayed within norms.
While it is slim evidence, the article seems to indicate that this is a VW problem.
Mercedes diesels were not mentioned.
The way the cheating was done was to inject urea for longer time and in greater quantity during the emission testing. Then when the engine switching into normal running mode, almost no urea was used!
For those who read French, here is a link to the Auto Plus article:
http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1497394...anti-pollution
Again, let's hope Mercedes is not involved in any similar activity.
More details welcomed as this whole saga unfolds.
The question about Mercedes Bluetec diesel cars is this: could similar emission testing defeat programming have been used on them?
I think it is safe to say that all manufacturers diesel models will be tested to find out in very short order. Let's keep our fingers crossed that Mercedes diesel cars, and trucks come up clean.
I found an interesting article that sheds light on how VW's cheating came to light.
Sorry to say, the article I read was in the French auto magazine AutoPlus that is a sister publication to the UK's Auto Express. Auto Express did not at this time have the same article as that posted in AutoPlus that gives a blow by blow unrolling of the VW affair. Maybe it's in translation?
One interesting point in that article indicates that VW's problems came to light after testing of a series of cars that included VW and BMW diesels. During these tests, VW diesels polluted nitrous oxide emission up to 40 times the authorized limits. Only the BMW X5 stayed within norms.
While it is slim evidence, the article seems to indicate that this is a VW problem.
Mercedes diesels were not mentioned.
The way the cheating was done was to inject urea for longer time and in greater quantity during the emission testing. Then when the engine switching into normal running mode, almost no urea was used!
For those who read French, here is a link to the Auto Plus article:
http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1497394...anti-pollution
Again, let's hope Mercedes is not involved in any similar activity.
More details welcomed as this whole saga unfolds.
09-23-2015, 08:48 PM
#2
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VW diesel scandal
The origin of the VW deception goes back to a decision made by the company around 2008. Mercedes had recently developed the adBlue urea system for limiting NOx output from diesel engines. MB offered to share their development with both VW and BMW, in return for a licensing fee per vehicle. Both of the other manufacturers initially agreed to market this system using the term 'BlueTec'.
My guess is that the VW cost accountants and engineers decided they had a cheaper and 'better' in-house solution, so VW passed on the use of the adBlue system for their 4 cylinder diesels. In 2009, Mercedes began to incorporate this system, first in their SUVs, then followed by the E350BT for MY2011. BMW elected to incorporate the Mercedes adBlue system for all of its diesel engines.
Only recently, with MY2015, has VW begun to incorporate a similar urea system in its Golf/Jetta diesels. However, we now know that this latest urea system does not pass the EPA tests for on road emissions. Various industry sources claim that the VW urea system burns only 1/3 as much as comparable Mercedes/BMW adBlue systems.
Another intriguing fact is that the urea tank in the MY2015 Golf/Jetta diesel holds 19.5L. The Mercedes E250 Bluetec with a similar size engine (2.1L vs 2.0L) has a urea tank that holds 28L, 40% more than the VW tank. Both cars are able to travel 10,000 miles between services or urea refills. How come the VW burns much less urea per mile ? The answer is no doubt coupled to the fact that the VW system does't meet the NOx emissions standards of the EPA/CARB !!!
My guess is that the VW cost accountants and engineers decided they had a cheaper and 'better' in-house solution, so VW passed on the use of the adBlue system for their 4 cylinder diesels. In 2009, Mercedes began to incorporate this system, first in their SUVs, then followed by the E350BT for MY2011. BMW elected to incorporate the Mercedes adBlue system for all of its diesel engines.
Only recently, with MY2015, has VW begun to incorporate a similar urea system in its Golf/Jetta diesels. However, we now know that this latest urea system does not pass the EPA tests for on road emissions. Various industry sources claim that the VW urea system burns only 1/3 as much as comparable Mercedes/BMW adBlue systems.
Another intriguing fact is that the urea tank in the MY2015 Golf/Jetta diesel holds 19.5L. The Mercedes E250 Bluetec with a similar size engine (2.1L vs 2.0L) has a urea tank that holds 28L, 40% more than the VW tank. Both cars are able to travel 10,000 miles between services or urea refills. How come the VW burns much less urea per mile ? The answer is no doubt coupled to the fact that the VW system does't meet the NOx emissions standards of the EPA/CARB !!!
09-24-2015, 07:45 AM
#3
Super Member
September 21, 2015 13:27 CET
FRANKFURT -- BMW and Daimler say their diesel-powered vehicles comply with U.S. clean air rules.
Their comments come after the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said on Friday that fellow German automaker Volkswagen used software for diesel VW and Audi branded cars that deceived regulators measuring toxic emissions. VW could face up to $18 billion in penalties.
BMW and Daimler's Mercedes-Benz have targeted the U.S. as a market for their diesel vehicles.
A BMW spokesman said: "There are clear laws and guidelines governing this and we adhere to them. Everything else is manipulation and deception and we don't commit such fraud."
Daimler said it was not aware of any investigation of Mercedes vehicles in the U.S. "We heard of the EPA's accusations against VW from the press. The issue described by the press does not apply to Mercedes-Benz Cars," the automaker said in a statement.
FRANKFURT -- BMW and Daimler say their diesel-powered vehicles comply with U.S. clean air rules.
Their comments come after the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said on Friday that fellow German automaker Volkswagen used software for diesel VW and Audi branded cars that deceived regulators measuring toxic emissions. VW could face up to $18 billion in penalties.
BMW and Daimler's Mercedes-Benz have targeted the U.S. as a market for their diesel vehicles.
A BMW spokesman said: "There are clear laws and guidelines governing this and we adhere to them. Everything else is manipulation and deception and we don't commit such fraud."
Daimler said it was not aware of any investigation of Mercedes vehicles in the U.S. "We heard of the EPA's accusations against VW from the press. The issue described by the press does not apply to Mercedes-Benz Cars," the automaker said in a statement.
09-24-2015, 04:56 PM
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
From what I have read, the EPA will probably test most, if not all, diesels sold in America. For one thing, VW would probably complain if they didn't. Hopefully MB and others will pass without any problems.
02-22-2016, 12:42 PM
#7
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Trending Topics
02-22-2016, 03:07 PM
#11
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2023 EQB 350 & 2014 GL350
Sounds like some lawyers are trying to get out front in the class action race in the event that something eventually happens in the US.
I'll keep watching and monitoring but this is not a smoking gun. (Yet.)
02-24-2016, 05:27 PM
#12
Operating temps below 50F? Are they referring to coolant temp, engine temp? Does anyone realize how quickly a cold engine would get past 50F? This is just a couple minutes of driving, even on the coldest days.
I've left the garage with coolant at -30C, and it's been past 40C less than five minutes and 3 km later.
I've left the garage with coolant at -30C, and it's been past 40C less than five minutes and 3 km later.
02-27-2016, 08:56 PM
#14
I find it interesting that the lawyers' website says they are investigating claims of a defeat device, rather than stating that they've found evidence of such....
I'm not sure there's even smoke here - forget about the fire.
I'm not sure there's even smoke here - forget about the fire.
02-28-2016, 07:00 PM
#15
Senior Member
EPA requests information from Mercedes-Benz over emission levels
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-re...215917899.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-re...215917899.html
