twenty6black

I have a mechanic up here in the NORTH (Canada) that says TURBOS prefer non-ethanol fuel.

They all thought Ultra94 was the best fuel best of the octane, but now, if you have a turbo motor you should run ESSO 93 - a non-Ethanol fuel.

It has something to do with the temperature of the burn and issues with intake valves.

THOUGHTS, comments?

I will be filling up with ESSO93 next time.

thx

Settthhh

Not sure, but I do know that if you leave a car sitting for a while (more than a month) you should use ethanol free as to not dirty up the fuel system.

rediesel

Non-ethanol gas is going to give better performance for the most part. I'd take a non-ethanol 93 over an ethanol 94. Both are going work just fine however.

LukkyStrike

As a old Subaru guy, I was thinking at that time going e85 for the performance gains. Anyone ever hear anyone making that change? I am sure some very high numbers would be possible assuming the fuel system could keep up. (Turbo motors)

rediesel

^^^ I've read about some turbo (Subarus and BMWs) doing this with E85 or oxygenated race gas. I think bigger injectors are usually required along with ECU tuning.

http://www.racegas.com/fuel/compare

looney100

Actually, both Sunoco 94 and Esso 93 contain ethanol.

Ethanol contains a lower BTU content than does non-ethanol fuel, so you'll typically get better fuel economy with a non-ethanol fuel.

Ethanol attracts water, so you need to be careful with condensation and other water contamination if you're storing the car.
The engine internals really don't care if there is a small amount of ethanol in the fuel or not. Ethanol content doesn't exceed 10% in mainstream gasolines.
Performance variations generally come from the BTU content, octane level and additive package.

Arrie

Yes, ethanol "attracts" water which means it mixes in water. This is actually a good thing as all gasoline has some water mixed in it. Without ethanol this water can cause issues with the engine especially in cold winter climate where the water can freeze in the fuel lines or in the fuel pump and render the car useless. Ethanol takes the water in and burns it away if water content is not too high.


There is a lot of negative rant around about ethanol in the gas. In my opinion it is good to have as it keeps water accumulation in the fuel system in check. It is true the engine performs better with non-ethanol fuel but the difference is not that dramatic.

SteveE400

For most of us here in The States, this is a moot point. We just don't get a choice. Here around Chicago, all of the pumps have stickers that say something like "may contain up to 10% ethanol." I am not aware of any station or brand selling gas without ethanol.


Heck, if there was a fuel without ethanol, I'd at least buy it for my snow blower and leaf blower. . .

looney100

There is nothing good about ethanol's affinity for water. In cases where water might pass by conventional gasoline, ethanol pulls it in - from humidity, etc.
Water is more sense than gasoline, so if it happens in a gas tank containing conventional gasoline, it just sinks to the bottom and gets pulled out by the fuel pump before it can accumulate.

SteveE400

Nothing good, looney? I don't know you or how long you've been into cars, but do you remember having to pour "Heet" (alcohol) into your gas tank all winter to keep the water in the gas from settling to the low points in your fuel system, freezing there, and making your car into a lawn sculpture until you could get it indoors long enough to thaw it out?

looney100

I've never needed to do this, nor can I recall my parents ever needing to do so when I was a child. Maybe you've just had some real crummy fuel in your area.
Also, people add a lot of unnecessary stuff to fuel and oil.

SteveE400

Well, I see from your profile that you are a good bit north of my area (around Chicago), so I doubt that you are a stranger to cold winters. It must just be a combination of the quality of fuel available in the past, and maybe my "bear-trap" memory - I've been a gearhead for probably 50 years or so, and I remember a lot of trivia.


Oh, and I've had some supreme beater cars that I kept running way past their "use-by" dates in my younger years, and it took gallons of mouse-milk to keep those things going.


Back on topic, though, I've had more trouble using the ethanol-laced gas in my snow blower than in cars. Granted, I have no antique cars left in my fleet, but the newer cars seem to be designed with 10-15% ethanol in mind. I've kept cars for 15 years or so, and driven several for well over 100K miles, and have had no unusual fuel system problems. As long as I do the normal scheduled maintenance (e.g. change fuel filters at the proper interval) and use only good quality gas from well-maintained stations, I've had no issues.

Arrie

Well,


like SteveE400 says there used to be this additive to be added in the tank when filling up. This additive was almost pure alcohol and its purpose was to "attract" water that you pump in your car at the fill up. Alcohol mixed in the gas does not really pull moisture in the tank as long as you keep the gas cap closed.


I don't know how old you are but when I had my first cars I could not even think about driving without using the alcohol additive at winter time as the water in the tank would settle at the bottom and freeze over the suction point that usually is at the lowest point inside the tank. This freezing water can also damage your fuel pump if it fills it up and freezes.


You say that the water would be pulled out from the tank as it is heavier and settles in the bottom. Well, partially true but not quite. The problem with water mixed in the gas when filling up is that this water is in small droplets and as the car runs these droplets go with the gas and out thru the engine until you stop the car over night in cold freezing climate. This is when these small water droplets slowly but surely fall to the bottom of the tank and form a buddle of water that then freezes against the very cold bottom of the tank.


Water problem in gasoline is not because the alcohol somehow pulls water in your own car's tank. Water is pumped in the tank with the gasoline from the big tank under ground at the gas station. If this pumped gas is non-ethanol grade you better add your own alcohol in your car's tank during winter months as without it you can expect trouble.


I don't know how gas in Canada is done. Is it all ethanol containing or not? I can buy non-ethanol fuel less than 2 miles from my house and sometimes I use it and I can see some fuel economy improvement but it is not really that much.

looney100

We're below freezing four months of the year here. We've never needed to add anything to the fuel tank to compensate for water, and our gasoline here doesn't contain ethanol.

I work in the fuel industry here in Canada, and service stations need to check for water in tanks regularly as it could be a sign of leakage into/from the ground. Most chains have standards that require tanks to be shut down if water remains in tankage.

Perhaps in "the old days" fuel systems in cars weren't as tight as they are now, which allowed more air circulation, and therefore condensation to exist.

Munich77

i wish I could find non-ethanol laced fuel. It is simply nasty stuff. I firmly believe the fuel is part of the reason my BMW 535 xi ran like crap on and off.

looney100

There are some cases where the ethanol may cause you problems, but it's unlikely to have any noticeable impact on performance as long as it gets used within a reasonable time.

Arrie

By what I can find in the internet pretty much all gas in Canada except the highest octane has ethanol mixed in it.

Also "http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/139.aspx#ultra94" is an inter net site from Petro-Canada that explain how they make a special mix for all of their gas for winter months and it especially mentions it is done to help deal with water in the gas so it does not freeze in the fuel lines. It also says it helps cold start. Guess what, ethanol does both and I can guarantee the special mix they talk about is simply addition of ethanol in the gasoline. If they use anything more exotic for this they are stupid, what they are not.

They do not mention ethanol as the special additive but that is what it must be.

looney100

I work in the industry here in Canada. You've got a few things wrong.

Ethanol inclusion varies by location. The legislation in Canada forces manufacturers and importers to have an overall blend percentage, for example 5%. To minimize investment in ethanol storage and transportation, and standardize blends, what the industry does is put 10% ethanol into half of their gasoline, thus meeting the 5% requirement. This is generally added to the regular gasoline as it's the biggest seller.
Ethanol requirements are fairly new-within the last 10 years in most provinces, and combined with the regionalization of the supply, there is plenty of opportunity to have experienced non-ethanol fuel in cost temperatures.

All refiners in Canada have winter formulations, Petro Canada just makes it part of their advertising as they position themselves as Canada's gas station. The difference in formulation is not ethanol content as that remains consistent year round where it is offered. The differences between summer and winter are generally in vapour pressure and the concentration of light ends which promote cold-weather starting.

jareb

Most cities in the U.S. and Canada have ethanol free fuel. In some areas you might have to drive a little to get to a station but it is readily available.
Try Here: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

SteveE400

I checked the list, and there is no station for over 100 miles from Chicago. Guess we're stuck here. . .

jareb

Some cities are tougher to find the fuel than others. Closest to you looks like Kirkland, Ill. or LaPorte Ind.....both about 70 miles. You would probably burn up a lot of the fuel getting back home.

Arrie

Man,


I'm talking about the additive. Vapor pressure difference comes from different refining result, i.e. they use more volatile components at winter months for better cold start. It probably helps the engine operation over all but the focus is in getting the engine running. After it is the summer grade will work also.


But I am not talking about this. I'm talking about what they add, the additive, do to keep fuel lines from freezing and I bet in all your life they have added ethanol in the gasoline if you have not had to add it yourself.


And believe or not, they add ethanol in the highest grades of gasoline for winter as well.

looney100

Dude,
You are just wrong.
I work for one of the largest service station brands in the country, and was involved in our change to ethanol gasolines. Prior to the government mandates in Canada, the only major brand with an ethanol gasoline was Sunoco.

And no one adds ethanol for just the winter. Moving to ethanol requires expensive tank cleaning prior to conversion and the conversion must be monitored closely because mixing ethanol and non-ethanol gasoline improperly can result in off-spec, unsaleable gasoline. This is not a hassle that operators want to have twice a year.

Trust me when I say that ethanol + water=bad news. I know this through years of experience in the industry.
Ethanol is not necessary nor used in Canada to improve cold weather operability of gasoline.

El Cid

As long as the agri-business, ethanol refiners and railroads control Congress, we will have ethanol in gas in US. Right now it is possible to find non-ethanol gas, but it is often hard to find and/or far more expensive than even 93 octane. At least in South Carolina.
Ethanol actually increases water in gasoline, which in turn creates problems. Fortunately most auto engines are big enough to withstand it, unlike marine motors, lawn equipment, etc.
Incidentally, I live 15 miles from a major pipeline terminal with multiple "brands" of gasoline facilities. The railroad brings in 250 tank cars per week to add ethanol to the tank trucks as they leave the facility. Some trucks leave with pure ethanol to add to gasoline distribution facilities in other locations.
Ethanol is bad. Period.

jareb

Ethanol free gas is more expensive than the 10% ethanol fuel that is common. I agree that it is being propped up by special interests in Congress although there has been some effort recently to reconsider its use. In some marine applications, ethanol fuel has been an absolute disaster. It actually reacts with and dissolves the gel coat used on some older fiberglass fuel tanks and creates a black goo that mucks up the marine engine fuel systems.
Ethanol free fuel is pretty available in most states though; including 448 stations in South Carolina.