When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I am very happy with the W212 overall handling using Bilstein B4 & Michelin PS4
Hi Guys,
Finally I managed to get the E400 to the race track to learn of its handling potential in a safe surrounding.
It was 16th and 25th May 2020, approx 20 laps combined for both visits, of which 1/2 are real laps and 1/2 is getting to know the track and cooling down.
This track is new to me.
The spec :
Front tires : Michelin Pilot Sport 4. 245/40 18". Pressure 34 psi. Installed age during test +-10,000KM and exactly 2 years of use. Year of production of all 4 tires, all are year 2018.
Rear tires : Michelin Pilot Sport 4. 265/35 18". Pressure 36 psi. Installed age during test +-10,000KM and exactly 2 years of use.
Shock absorbers : Bilstein B4 front : P/N 22-194091. Year of manufacture 2015. Bought in USA. Installed age during test , 2,000KM and 7 months.
Shock absorbers : Bilstein B4 front : P/N 24-194112. Year of manufacture 2019. Bought in USA. Installed age during test , 2,000KM and 7 months.
Initial impression of the Bilstein B4 when first installed is here : https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...lstein-b4.html
Suspension code according to VIN : 677 AVANTGARDE/STANDARD SUSPENSION
I personally could not believe this 1,914 kg ( 4,220 lbs if 1/2 fuel tank and me alone ) comfy car could generate the level of sticky-ness /grip from a comfort set up suspension
I am talking of my butt G-force sensor, not only about the Samsung S10e gyro sensors.
The E400 seat is so awful for cornering, I have a hard time holding on to the steering to keep my butt and waist up from being thrown during corners.
Unique characteristic of Bilstein B4, in my personal opinion :
These shocks have the first say 10-15% of its compression travel as comfort aka soft. Push into corner harder, its compression travel goes deeper and it stiffens up, sporty enough.
The green rectangular boxes are peak G for cornering or Lateral-G as per Samsung S10e gyro sensor compiled by Track Addict App. Some may be combination of acceleration G.
Below is an S curve. Bilstein B4 during this weight shift after completing the right turn and then I hurry a left turn, is not as stiff as I want it to be, but given I want comfort on the regular road,
that is the trade off I have to accept. Just more body roll , that's it, no traction loss. The rear shock being not overly stiff during compression and a decent not super quick rebound is a good thing in this case as I can take corner on bad/bumpy road and
not loose traction as I would have when using my Mk2 Supra* in 1983 ( *street racing suspension full kit and lowered ) when I was young and reckless.
These huge u-shape corners below are really good to test the Bilstein B4 deepest compression value vs traction, it does not dissapoint. I am very happy here.
Since this track is a right turn dominated ,9 of them and only 2 are left turns, totaling only 11 turns.... my left front tire worked like 2 times more than the right front and the rear tires are kinda relaxed.
This is also because my E400 corner weights or balance is 53% front biased.
Phenomenally detailed information as always, @S-Prihadi. Thank you. I’ve been following your suspension reports with great interest.
Very impressive grip and performance from the B4! I’m considering both B4 and B6 but this report pushes me back towards B4 which sounds like it somehow improves both comfort and dynamics over the Sachs.
I know that Bilstein monotube designs like the B6 supposedly last the life of the vehicle unlike most shocks. Do you know if this is also the case for the more conventionally designed B4?
No shock absorbers will last the life time of the vehicle, more so in poor Indonesian road like mine. 50,000KM is probably as good as it gets.
My Ford Fiesta all 4 shocks are gone at 27,000KM but at 8-9 years old. I am not saying gone as in total loss and crabbing ride, but the finer dampening nature simply gone and one of the front one has minor oil leak, I forgot left or right one.
I actually took my Ford Fiesta too on 16th May 2020 at the track and it was a blast, it is the stickiest small budget car I ever owned. It was on 205 wide Michelin PS4 too, used to be 195 wide OEM and it is now 0.5cm taller due to 205 size.
I have a Mazda Biante, its this one : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Biante
The rear shocks are leaking oil now, the left one at 45,000KM. I will need to change all 4. I hardly drive this car, its school car for my daughter. So it is driven very politely by my driver.
B6 is monotube, B4 is not. Looking at the oil content/capacity of B6, I am sure B6 if very abused will stay cooler than a B4 for much longer.
I initially wanted to buy B4 and B6 at one go, but I fear B6 too stiff for my crappy road, so I start with the B4 first.
Only because of Covid19, I got so much free time and the track is basically 95% empty, that got me thingking I need to use this opportunity to test the B4 and W212 handling to its max.
I have a Quaife ( torsen ) differential from UK and will install it next week. The model I was given by Quaife is the "Mercedes C320 cdi, CLK63 AMG, E55 AMG, E63 AMG QDF27B" , this is based on me giving them
my axle part number stamped on it : A 203 351 07 05 just in case members are interested.
Most of the time I have my ESP on, only like 3 laps I had it off for 25th May 2020.
I can only do 4 laps before I need to cool down the tires and the transmission oil temp get scarry 120C for a second and hovering at 115C often within 2nd lap and so is the engine coolant temperature.
Everytime I started the engine, ESP always reset back to ON .... LOL.
Anyway, the ESP OFF is not truly OFF, its just more forgiving a bit but still does its "nanny" function.
I was on auto ( sports mode ) all the time, never manual. I am not yet familiar with this car gear range and also its MANUAL mode is kinda bullshi-et, reach the redline and it will upshift no matter what.
Thottle pedal travel vs throtte opening and auto transmission kick down, I am never a fan of Mercedes for this part since the 80s.... if sporty driving is the flavor. My E400 throttle setting is very good for bumper to bumper traffic, that I have to give 2 thumbs up.
Note : I do not know how real AMG throttle settings are like.
The track is 1 hour for car and 1 hour for motorbikes. 16th May 2020 there are 3 real race cars practicing and 1 fun run car like me, so I give way to them real race cars as courtesy and I only do 3 laps per allowed hour.
25th May was me only and 1 motorbike and we came to an agreement 30 minutes each and I practically was alone (car ) on the track...damn awesome.... till I seen my front left tire damage...ha ha ha and by noon I quit.
I am ordering a BBS wheel 8.5 J width all around, so not for staggered set up like now and it will be 245/40 18" all around. I want to loosen the tail and get this E400 to oversteer more.
One thing I noticed about this car M276 DELA 30 torque nature, it is a "tire traction safe" engine. Most corners are at RPM range where peak torque is there already.... afterall at 1,600 RPM peak torque has developed,
so no suprises and traction loss even for lead footed driver. Not a fun engine though, but a safe one. I recalled when driving older turbocharged engine which starts to kick in at 4,000 ish RPM and while at close to maximum
cornering speed, if I am lead footed, I can get to a tail spin....but there is a fun in that when we can steer the azz with the throttle though.
BRAKES. My version got a decently good brake system, a big disk and drilled one, and since I only do real hard drive not more than 3 laps, it never fade. My Ford Fiesta brakes faded by 2nd lap ...LOL.
Next to figure out is : At what temperature and minimum how long in seconds, sustained at that temperature, coolant overheat alarm and trans oil overheat will be triggered ?
I am very worried that I touched 120C for 10 seconds non-stop on 25th May 2020, both coolant and trans oil..... and yet I do not hear any alarm at the MB dashboard/gauges.
I was not paying attention to the analog gauge though but on 16th May 2020 I have seen what I believe as 110C for a short duration, but I did not bring my OBD2 logger on that day.
CORRECTION. 18 July 2020 : I just found out today that my OBD bluetooth OBDLINK LX can not read transmission oil temperature data. I choose what Torque App called Method 1, which is
shows near mirror copy of coolant temperature. I found out about this today by using wired scanner ICarSoft MB V2.0. My apology guys
To those wanting to know my Valeo 200amp alternator, standard one, its charging profile....below is a 50 minutes run from my home to the track , but logging ended at the highway rest area.
Hope all these data will be useful to some members.
.
From your comments in this thread and other threads, I understand that you have some very rough roads in your area. Your choice of the B4 definitely makes sense in that context.
Oregon is interesting with respect to roads. We have decent maintenance and little freezing weather, so we have almost no potholes, broken pavement, or frost heave. There aren't bad bumps, it is just that the surface of the road is terribly coarse due to the use of large aggregate for wet traction. This causes tremendous road noise and significant vibrations and shaking of the car of a relatively high frequency but also high amplitude. Oregon freeways will expose any interior trim rattles immediately.
You have indicated that your ride comfort and noise have improved substantially with B4, in particular due to the easy first bit of shock travel. I wonder if B6 has the same initial travel that could help absorb the rough surface of the road here while offering even better handling, considering our absence of large bumps here. Or would B6 simply make the vibration from the aggregate much worse? Unfortunately I have not been able to find a single report of W212 with B6 online. Your report of the incredible (1G+!!) handling with B4 is very encouraging, however.
When you say that B4 reduced noise, do you mean like crashing noise over bumps and broken pavement? Or a reduction in road noise on normal pavement?
When you say that B4 reduced noise, do you mean like crashing noise over bumps and broken pavement? Or a reduction in road noise on normal pavement?
Thanks as always for your observations.
My case is : Reduction in road noise on normal pavement. Weird yes ?
Maybe it is less suspension chatter on micro bumps ?
As how you described your road, I think B6 is do-able for your case.
This MB forum doesn't have much suspension talk, I read some very informative B6 story from Bimmer forum.
I can't say it is apple to apple to our W212, but I believed BMW OEM is also Sachs, so perhaps W212 should get similar result when going to B4 or B6 from a Sachs.
I can only do 4 laps before I need to cool down the tires and the transmission oil temp get scarry 120C for a second and hovering at 115C often within 2nd lap and so is the engine coolant temperature.
Thanks for this most informative post :-) How do you know your trans temp?
No shock absorbers will last the life time of the vehicle, more so in poor Indonesian road like mine. 50,000KM is probably as good as it gets.
.
I have 130000 miles on my comfort suspension Luxury E3504matic. Pretty sure that the shocks have not been replaced. Don't think that any are leaking. Not terribly satisfied with the NVH, in terms I feel more input from the road that I would expect but it could be my expectations are too high. Assuming that my expectations are reasonable. I don't know whether it could be caused by a suspension bushing or linkage issue or shocks. I know that when I have replaced shocks on my wives mazda 3 the car felt more solid and did seem to ride better but they were obviously shot.
Your claim that shocks are only good for 30K miles is surprising and I wonder if other posters agree. Assuming that the shocks don't leak what are the internal components that are wearing to cause degradation in performance and how could you tell?
Your claim that shocks are only good for 30K miles is surprising and I wonder if other posters agree. Assuming that the shocks don't leak what are the internal components that are wearing to cause degradation in performance and how could you tell?
My roads are crappy and with 20-21 KM per hour as average speed since the last 10,000 KM or approx 400 engine hours I did on my E400, my 50,000KM probably is equal to USA decent road of 150,000KM normal wear and tear.
Excluding extra wear and tear from the bad roads itself. Simply I am on a 3 to 4x accelerated wear and tear compared to USA decent road. Even ball joints and tie rod ends are consumeable for most Indonesian car owners who are **** on "tight" feel,
usually 50,000 - 75,000KM ish, surely under a 100,000KM I would have replaced them and it is before the steering freeplay increase to any significant degree.
The function of the nitrogen is important in the shock absorber for micro air bubble control in the oil itself. Air is compressible, oil/liquid is not. The more foamy air bubble occurs, shock absorber compression resistance and rebound goes banana and the car feels weird
after few hours drive.
Many shocks are "non-rebuildable", meaning they don't provide a discharging/filling valve for the gas and effectively "sealed" for good.
The valve in the shocks are like coin shape, very thin shims. Imagine how a a reed valve works, flexing its its main duty. Overtime this shim can also loose its tension value ( or crack ) and allow more oil to pass more freely and that basically it is a shock absorber out of specification.
If you drive a certain corner fast and very often like every other day, you can tell if your shock absorber is not "tight" or going bad but not broken yet.
Back in my younger days, I can detect 2 PSI rear tire pressure loss doing a particular corner at speed every day, its a road I have to pass thru coming back from school every day.
Some road undulation can also be used as a reference, as long as the speed and load on the car ( you alone is best ) you use is the same. Here you can not only feel/verify shock compression, but the rebound.
Decent speed slalom can also detect shocks going bad, but not yet broken.
The easiest is, if one is not sensitive, is to test a much newer /younger well maintained same model car on the same road you are very very familiar.
My roads are crappy and with 20-21 KM per hour as average speed since the last 10,000 KM or approx 400 engine hours I did on my E400, my 50,000KM probably is equal to USA decent road of 150,000KM normal wear and tear.
Excluding extra wear and tear from the bad roads itself. Simply I am on a 3 to 4x accelerated wear and tear compared to USA decent road. Even ball joints and tie rod ends are consumeable for most Indonesian car owners who are **** on "tight" feel,
usually 50,000 - 75,000KM ish, surely under a 100,000KM I would have replaced them and it is before the steering freeplay increase to any significant degree.
The function of the nitrogen is important in the shock absorber for micro air bubble control in the oil itself. Air is compressible, oil/liquid is not. The more foamy air bubble occurs, shock absorber compression resistance and rebound goes banana and the car feels weird
after few hours drive. https://youtu.be/2LVYWWu2OMc Many shocks are "non-rebuildable", meaning they don't provide a discharging/filling valve for the gas and effectively "sealed" for good.
The valve in the shocks are like coin shape, very thin shims. Imagine how a a reed valve works, flexing its its main duty. Overtime this shim can also loose its tension value ( or crack ) and allow more oil to pass more freely and that basically it is a shock absorber out of specification.
If you drive a certain corner fast and very often like every other day, you can tell if your shock absorber is not "tight" or going bad but not broken yet.
Back in my younger days, I can detect 2 PSI rear tire pressure loss doing a particular corner at speed every day, its a road I have to pass thru coming back from school every day.
Some road undulation can also be used as a reference, as long as the speed and load on the car ( you alone is best ) you use is the same. Here you can not only feel/verify shock compression, but the rebound.
Decent speed slalom can also detect shocks going bad, but not yet broken.
The easiest is, if one is not sensitive, is to test a much newer /younger well maintained same model car on the same road you are very very familiar.
Can’t he added the external transmission cooler kit to prevent the transmission overheating after he reach certain temperature?
The E400 and I am sure all the 7Plus transmission have trans oil cooler already.
Its just that I am at 32-34 Celsius ambient temperature and pushing the engine + transmission as hard one can ever abuse them .... at the track, which this car is not designed for.
How do other members determine that their suspension components are worn?
Well, I guess I have been blessed with being able to drive less than 3k a year recently, but my 93 S class needed new shocks at 90k when it was 11 years old, my 2003 S500 blew an air strut at 56k miles and 10 years old, then the car was sagging after I replaced the rear struts, so I ended up with a new compressor, valve body and front struts. My E's don't have much mileage, so no suspension replacements yet. but I might add at 130k like you said you had there would be a noticeable difference if you were to replace your shocks, if you intend to keep it for a while anyways, they are great cars and I'm sure they will run as long as you replace the broken things.
The E400 and I am sure all the 7Plus transmission have trans oil cooler already.
Its just that I am at 32-34 Celsius ambient temperature and pushing the engine + transmission as hard one can ever abuse them .... at the track, which this car is not designed for.
Not worth the hassle. I don't frequently track the car anyway. 3 laps and then 1 lap cooling down and enter the pit. Real hard run only about 2 laps at 2nd and 3rd only. 1st lap is always for control.
The track session is more for handling test and responsible fun all out drive.
I chosen the Torque App on Samsung Tablet as a 0.5 seconds per data point logging.
I noticed between my foot pushing down throttle pedal, OBDLink-LX transmitting to Samsung Tablet and then showing it on the Torque App, there is about a 1/3 second or so lag.
Its quite typical for bluetooth or even wifi when I use a GoPro and a tablet/phone for live view, to get a lag.
I do not know speedo meter wise, which is more accurate for sudden speed change, GPS data from TrackAddict via Samsung S10e phone, or wheel via OBDLink-LX ... ?
Samsung S10e GPS module is impressive, I tested it againts some very good GPS loggers I have collected over the years. Its is accurate and stable, but I could not trace its OEM.
Samsung Tablet 2019 10.1" I use, SM-T515 GPS module is not bad too, I did not try to track its OEM.
As to why Samsung Tablet 2019 10.1",SM-T515 keep misreading cornering G-Force as though as I am changing from potrait mode to landscape mode, and keep flipping the Torque App....I do not know yet.
As to why I do not link up the OBDLink-LX to Samsung S10e which has the TrackAddict Apps, it was 4 considerations.
First I am using free TrackAddict version and OBD data input is not possible, the paid version one can do.
Secondly, the Samsung S10e screen is too small and I do not want to clutter it with digital gauges of Torque App.
Third, I was planning to use S10e bluetooth to receive a very good GPS logger from Bad Elf, this one : https://bad-elf.com/pages/be-gps-2300-detail if in any event Samsung S10e since being inside the car on the windshield......... get a bad GPS signal, I can then taped the Bad Elf GPS Pro+ on the panaromic roof and get best clear sky view for its antennae. So if GPS logger uses the bluetooth, the OBDLink-LX which also uses bluetooth, can't communicate with the Samsung tablet.
Fourth, I do not want the Samsung S10e processor to be over burdened recording video on TrackAddict while having to do OBD2 logging.
I may buy this version of the OBD , wifi based, not bluetooth. https://www.obdlink.com/mxwf/
Wifi can send more data and faster.
.
Last edited by S-Prihadi; 06-26-2020 at 12:49 PM.
Reason: add info
You're the man S-Prihadi! Enjoyed reading this thread so much, so informative!
Two questions :
So you're saying the performance of B4 suspensions are not 'linear'?
And thoughts of upgrading the springs as well?
You're the man S-Prihadi! Enjoyed reading this thread so much, so informative!
Two questions :
So you're saying the performance of B4 suspensions are not 'linear'?
And thoughts of upgrading the springs as well?
I think you are saying, if B4 is digressive type valving like a B6 and up. I think B4 is "linear".
However, if you see the chart, the basic hydraulic principle as explained by Monroe and also the chart : https://www.monroe.com.au/trade-corn...orbers-do.html
"Shock absorbers are velocity sensitive hydraulic damping devices, meaning the faster the suspension moves, the more resistance the shock absorbers provide."
So the hydraulic behaviour itself, will create sort progressive resistance, but depending on piston velocity , which in other words how much high speed bump/undulation or weight shift ( sudden cornering ) the car does to the dampers.
Spring is different, it can be really linear "X" KG per mm of compression if linear type or can be progressive when designed so , but not effected by weight increase velocity.
Come to think about it : if we look at typical fluid principle, any pipe which a fluid pass thru, the pipe itself will create extra resistance to the moving fluid once the volume exceed certain value for the given diameter of the pipe.
We call this HEAD LOSS in water pump scenario. Faster piston velocity in shock absorber is equal to higher volume flow too. Faster piston speed means more oil volume per 1 second unit of time.
As for the spring, I dont want to change it. Its nice as it is now for family mover and spirited driving when needed.
.
Last edited by S-Prihadi; 06-26-2020 at 12:46 PM.
Reason: typo
Great information S-Prihadi!! Learned so much from you, thanks man.
Regarding shocks design, so does it mean "progressive" shocks provide best comfort while "digressive" give better handling while sacrificing confort?
Great information S-Prihadi!! Learned so much from you, thanks man.
Regarding shocks design, so does it mean "progressive" shocks provide best comfort while "digressive" give better handling while sacrificing confort?
Thanks again!
If we assume the non-custom tuned shock absorbers or off the shelf progressive and digressive type......are as what the charts shows, I agree with you conclusion.
However, since roads smoothness levels and how tight and fun are the back-roads corners in XYZ country..... are different country to country and our typical daily route and driving habits won't be the the same for every driver,
I think if the shocks have good wide band adjustment for both compression and rebound, all we need to do is experiment till we find the best compromise.
06-13-2020, 09:49 AM
and less grip.
Comfort = yes. Good roadholding = yes.
at the track, which this car is not designed for.
