S-Prihadi

Gents,

Every time I see engine oil suction pipe of modern car using o-ring for its suction rod or pipe extension to the bottom of the engine oil pan, I fear of o-ring failure.
I seen it happen already.

Now if I see the pipe is made of plastic, I feel double fear ........

This is what robust engineering used to look like :





Now, this is our car today. Based on my M276 3.0 Turbo and would be the same for M276 3.5NA.
If one uses 4-matic, there are 2 O-rings which can fail.
For RWD car, 1 O-ring can fail. However, RWD car plastic pipe goes to the back of the engine for quite a distance and if the pipe crack, we loose oil
suction and get lots of air bubble = bye bye engine.


The EPC drawing is based on 4-matic, hence 2 O-rings, item 70 and 100.
The right side image I attached, that is if RWD only.














4-matic oil pan. The second short plastic suction pipe is inside the oil pan, item 90 on the EPC 1st image.






So the plastic baffle of 4-matic is like what is shown on the ECP, see Below . That is the 1st o-ring, item 70.




Item 90 and the 2nd o-ring I draw ( very ugly ) in cyan/green.





I will replace this time bomb complete unit by year 10. Its only US$65 in USA, so in my country would be US$175 probably.
I want to sleep well.














If you guys want to keep your car like me, target of 20 years. Do remember this ticking time-bomb.
Except probably AMG engine, you guys do not have oil pressure gauge or sensor , hence no warning at all. I have add-on oil pressure gauge + sensor.
Our engine uses 2 stage oil control valve, low pressure below 3,500 RPM meaning low suction and low flow. Loose suction from a 1/2 torn o-ring alone can ruin your engine slowly bit by bit.
Any positive pressure pump is weaker or higher loss at suction than it is at pressure, that is another sad fact.
Air bubbles from leaking suction side of pump is also VERY BAD for crankshaft and camshaft oil pressure injected film type lubrication.... its a "floating" lubrication...sort of.

Drive safe...............

Rickman30

Can we find the failure rate of these parts? I really like my 14'. However, since purchace health has prevented me from doing my own work as I'd intended upon purchasing. Even my Jeep WJ has been neglected as of late.

S-Prihadi

I honestly don't know the failure rate or WHEN... but I use 10 years as a baseline. Regardless of mileage, if for me.
My 10 years is anything hose of rubber + plastic fittings where always O-ring is used.... which carry coolant , engine oil , tranny oil and brake fluid....best I replace them all if I want to keep the car to 20 years.
Will them components last 15 years ? Maybe..... Maybe not.

But we have case studies already :

01. M278 is famous for breaking its coolant plastic hose and aluminum pipe combo which they are for the turbo. Before 10 years in some cases.

02. Fuel filter or fuel pump body is plastic, some have minor cracked and leak. I believe a few is very close to 10 years or maybe 11-12 years.
The crack is at the top part where the plastic flange of pump and/or filter mate with the tank, so its vapor we can smell fast before anything dangerous can happen.

03. Coolant reservoir bottle, that one WILL crack, its a matter of time. I seen 2016 one already cracked. But engine is the AMG ones, so more heat at engine bay.
I already replaced mine.

For me I do not want to wait for any of those to happen.

I have a Ford Fiesta of 10 years old and only 27,000 KM , the hose into the HVAC heater got torn and I almost warped my cylinder head. I lost ALL of the coolant.
Fiesta does not have a engine coolant gauge....YEP, stupid car. In fact my wife 2020 Toyota Corolla Cross is now the same stupid for coolant gauge...NIL...DUGGGH !!!!
Fiesta does not have low coolant alarm/warning....YEP, cheap car.

My small Toyota of 10 years, but 100,000KM and well used, has a small tear at its radiator hose, the discharge side.
I found out about it before I actually loose more than 10% of coolant.


In Fact I already bought 3 HVAC hoses residing at the engine bay, the only last and 4th hose-pipe-set I did not buy yet is the one from the mini heat exchanger pipe ( above ABS pump ) to the evap,
as this assy aluminum + hose assy has rubber hose section which is under the wiper cowling and live a much cooler life. I will change the 3 hoses soon, this year.
This is the post : https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...vac-hoses.html
HVAC hoses probably live a longer life for you guys NOT in tropical country, but me loosing HVAC is the same as loosing my engine.

Rickman30

I agree with everything you said. And when I say, I want to replace plastic parts before possible failure, Coolant reservoir, hoses with plastic ends, plastic thermostat, water pump, radiator, and now oil pickup tube assembly, and am told not to or it's ridiculous to, just wait till it fails, I will not listen to them. I spent my entire life performing "Preventative Maintenance" along with "Repairs due to lack of Preventative Maintenance" as an auto tech. It's not just about replacing fluids and spark plugs, It's about maintaining an losing investment needed for normal everyday life. We are willing to spend thousands on wheels, but refuse to ensure it still being in service for 20 years. So if I obsess over a code, or something that I can't let go of, this is why. I'm with you, S-Prihadi. I appreciate and share your passion to rectify the short comings of the manufacture, I bought this car with the intent of it being the last car I buy, last till they take my license away at least. Thank you for all you do

S-Prihadi

I feel you Rick.
When I was doing yachts maintenance/sales/survey and all those, my clients some are my best friends and have high budget.
They don't accept break down on weekends and ruin their fun at their private islands or distant dive trips.
I keep stock of 2 of spare propeller shaft, brackets, rudders and even 1 of gearbox too as we have lots of floating debris which are wooden log and a few of our yachts like 3 of them
has gotten hit as these logs are 90% submerged and no radar can detect them. Ordering those underwater complete gear can be up to 3 months special order before shipping time so 4+ months if European brand.
Good thing if US Spotrfishing yachts brand, usually 30 days we can get those parts + 30 days sea freight. Those lunatic US sportfishing crowd really know how to destroy their tranny and underwater gear in the name
of landing big Marlins. If you want to see yachts doing reverse at 12 knots to save their 80lbs fishing line from snapping, you see them doing it in those US$1 million prized tournament.
Thanks to them UW propulsion gear are quite easy to get.

I was task to do preventive maintenance and I love it as here is no budget restriction.
It was a tough one in procurement as I must import almost everything from USA and Singapore. I can't even find ultra high performance diesel lubricant back then in Indonesia in mid 1990s as lubricant is a controlled
product.

Our diesel fuel was so bad in terms of cleanliness, quality and of a very high sulfur content of like 3,000 PPM and hence we do 100 hours oil change, where my Singapore yachters friends with superb Shell diesel
can do 300 hours engine oil change. Big Racor FG1000 diesel fuel filter we need to replace it like we replace our underwear hahahah, so much clogging from simply burning
3,000 liters 780 US gallons of diesel fuel consumed per distant dive trip we did 250 n.miles return trip + 50 n.miles running around between dive spots.

The tranny sea water heat exchanger (HE) for tranny oil when-will-it-leak is the most difficult one to predict. We do annual pressure test to 1.25x its worlking pressure, and they do well.
We can't predict the annual thinning rate of the cupro nickel cooling pipe used, it all pressed and soldered and not something we can open up and measure like the main engine one which is modular.
I seen tranny lost to sea-water entering its oil too often, more so the Twin Disc brand. The German ZF tranny has better oil HE construction..
The tranny cost is OK, US$35K only at the most for up to 900HP engine, but on some US Sporfishing yachts getting the tranny out of the engine room is the challenge,
as above engine room is the saloon ( living room ) and the door to cockpit is only like 2 feet wide. Engine room door to cockpit is even smaller.

That zero-breakdown and high preventive maintenance regime on yachts is what I do to my own car.
After all my car is my exercise machine, be it physical or brain wise.....hence I really enjoy to see it feel and drive like brand new for as long as I can do it.
My wife thinks I am crazy for jacking up my car so often in a month ...LOL. Thanks to Quick-Jack.
I find somehow a peaceful sensation being under the car ...., like being on the bigger yachts engine room, my favorite place.

===========

If you want to re-visit your reverse camera stored DTC codes, whenever you are ready, up that post again and me and Cali would surely try to assist.
We need to learn from each other experience.

Rickman30

Having time in USN, and Marine Techs in the family, I understand everything you said and agree.

The car is working great, but, I do want to get to the bottom of these Stored Codes. She hoped some new ones after a bad lightning storm recently. I have two more trips and I will see what comes back.

If I can stay out of hospital long enough, I want to pull carpets and check Buss bars, if nothing else, satisfy OCD. I checked my Front Cowl, and my wiper shafts leak water as well. I'm guessing the only way to get those bushings is with the cowl as I don't see them separate. I did apply Dielectric grease to seal off front SAM/fuse box lid.

Thank you both, so very much, look forward to working together.

S-Prihadi

..
Stay fit Rick, at our age ( me only 55 now ), that is the most precious asset we have.
Anytime you are ready, we both be ready. Take your time.

I am curious on one chemical called stabilant 22 : https://shop.boeing.com/aviation-sup...STABILANT22=33

I have what is so called its "equivalent", the De-Oxit pure DL100 and GL100.
Supposedly this Stabilant 22 is used on avionics, more for signal improvement and not electric power transmission per-se.
https://stabilant.com/appnt39.pdf


Here is a good explanation on both De-Oxit and Stabilant 22. Pro n Con
http://store.caig.com/s.nl/ctype.KB/...1977/KB.215/.f
The adding on alcohol for Stabilant 22 is kinda extra work indeed.

Stabilant 22 been around since the 80s.
Since your DTC could come from CAN-BUS minor issue, I think giving the Stabilant 22 a try would be worht it.

I did apply all of my connector 22 of them at Front SAM with De-Oxit DL100 (red). Since this is not a new virgin connection, I am supposed to use DL (red) and not GL(gold) one.

My last issue with random nonsense data coming from interior temperature sensor of the overhead control panel which is for my HVAC, but located at that panel ( for panoroof ) called N70/b1
was cured by simply plugging in and out the connector hoping the action will clean the contact points, result was good. It was at random reading -20C which is pure nonsense hahahah.
For my case, my temp sensor is not via CAN BUS like some other W212 : example Cali's one which is called N70 Overhead Control Panel, mine is simple true hard wire.
This temperature signal itself is basically very slow analog hill up or valley down type voltage, as this would be a typical resistor either negative or positive coefficient one.

CAN BUS surely is more complex with their voltage differential fast switching and more difficult to troubleshoot, but I was hoping Stabilant 22 can make a difference.
I am thinking to get Stabilant 22 too as it has a long proven track record De-Oxit can not yet beat.

Rickman30

Yes, 100% agree, the Stabilant 22 would be to improve data transfer over CAN BUS and lines, and Deox-it for volt/amp improvement on previously corroded or contaminated connections or preventive measures.

Why good solid connections are so important. One of my previous Employers had his daughters truck in the shop for blower motor kept blowing the fuse, his favorite parts changer, sorry, mechanic, replaced the blower with five new and remanufactured units. after 6 months of still blowing fuses, Boss sent it to me. First I put an amp probe on wires at blower to see if motor was indeed the amp draw blowing the fuses and it was in spec, I then back traced all connections till I found the one causing the amp draw increase and repaired with new pin connectors. Poor connections also increase amp draw but will test good unloaded or with fan turned off, causing many to look in the wrong direction, it may look normal, but a voltage drop test confirms the degraded connection causing an increase in amperage across the connection thus blowing fuses making parts changers believe that brand new part is still at fault.

Powers and Grounds should be the first to be confirmed before any electrical repair. A volt meter can confirm, but I like to load the circuit with a measured test lamp to confirm integrity of circuit. You can get a good reading on the meter, but it can fail when a load is applied. Sound testing of circuits is foundational, otherwise, you're just chasing your tail. We use these solvents and connection enhancers to increase longevity of repairs or prevention of failures. The more variables we can eliminate the narrower the possibilities of failure.

Thanks S-Prihadi, Sometimes we take for granted the simple things we do, failing to pass that knowledge on to others.

juanmor40

@S-Prihadi , have you seen this video? M272 engine though

S-Prihadi

Wow....... thanks Juan.





I googled this from MB forum : https://mbworld.org/forums/m-class-w...placement.html

Member Boganddr1 2008 R350 has the issue for 1.5 years and this post of March 2021.
So in mid 2020 the problem began. = 12 years
For anyone able to hear such sound, the loss of suction on the o-ring must have been DECENT enough.
If one have oil pressure gauge like mine, the swing can be seen.

Well....O-ring oh O-ring, we can't live without you ( by Durex )

S-Prihadi

I am adding engine oil cooler GASKET ( only gasket ) for the 10 year program.
Usually coolant is the one intruded by engine oil because engine oil has higher pressure....when engine is running.
But..... when engine is OFF, coolant pressure will still remain due to heat for sometime and the oil pressure has drop to zero psi and coolant can then migrate to
engine oil







For above, I suspect ( probably ) the metal tubes of the oil cooler itself got corroded and not gasket failure like a lot of the OM diesels of Mercedes.



The seal material of the gasket, close up.









I wonder how the seal rubber material is sealing towards the gasket metal plate itself.
If the sealing between them fail, we could also get cross leak.... yikes.

S-Prihadi

While I was messing around with my custom DIY engine support bar, for the reason I will replace this plastic baffle + suction pipe combo inside my oil pan......
I was thinking, which engine has broken/cracked this plastic part and loose oil pressure ?


I then found this Bimmer post. F82 model is a 2015 BMW M4 of the poster, engine is called S55 : https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1994927
S55 engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N55#S55
Good thing this M4 plastic oil pan baffle is purely a baffle and not having integrated suction oil pipe made of plastic.
However, there is a stand alone oil suction pipe made of plastic




.


Quite a unique oil pump. Item 16 & 17.



======================

So I looked again and found a common problem of Detroit Diesel engine D13 and D15 where its oil suction plastic pipe has been known to destroy engines, due to
it cracked and loosing oil suction and CRANKSHAFT failure happened
This is a double whammy. The 2 o-rings for the oil pipes also will get tired and loose oil pressure.... DUGGHH, sounds like my M276 plastic oil pan baffle-suction pipe combo + o-ring potential nightmare






A good video on cracked suction pipe is below :



Same DD15 engine. O-rings at steel oil tube into the plastic oil suction pipe manifold , already tired/shrink/loose fit. Low oil pressure the engine gets







===================

Detroit Diesel in year 2000 was bought out by MTU Diesel or better known as MTU Friedrichshafen
https://www.mtu-solutions.com/eu/en/...he-diesel.html

MTU is also owned by Damlier AG, MB parent company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTU_Friedrichshafen

Back in the days when I was handling client's yachts with Detroit Diesel mid 90s up to early 2000, it was their 2 stroke diesels series.
There was NO PLASTIC whatsoever used on oil or coolant system.
Come the Damlier AG, and bean counters started using el-cheapo plastic today.

The other sad plastic use on this Detroit Diesel is the oil stand pipe inside the filter housing. This is like the BMW plastic nightmare I once posted, here : https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...guide-yet.html

The dumb-azz oil stand pipe inside the filter housing if broken, the oil filter then becomes a by-pass mode and engine gets no oil filter protection.





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