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Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but here is a random quick question. Is it bad for a gasoline engine to just take short trips? I know diesels need occasional longer trips, but is this necessary for a modern gasoline engine? What about some high RPM here and there? Thanks.
just really needs to get up to operating temperature any drive where it does not is a short one and you should extend trip until op temps reached...
Ok, I understand. Short trips in this case is just to operating temperature, sometimes a little more and some times less. I usually don't rev up the engine too much, but have read that it can be "healthy" for an engine to sometimes get some good breathe.
I wouldn't worry at all about driving short trips in a gasser. Absolute worst case is you'll see a bit of condensation at the top of the oil fill cap and you'll know it's time to change the oil earlier than usual.
One of several features from Vladimir's TuneOBD software hack is the AMG menu which includes temps. We have some frequent destinations that are relatively short distance away so I'll take a longer route until the indicators are white. Does it help in the long run? I don't know but I feel better...
Yes, short distance driving for modern direct injection engines is not advisable. It's well known to be a contributing factor to carbon buildup. It can also lead to fuel contamination in the oil. When the cylinders are cold, some of the fuel condensates on the walls and drips into the oil. Normally this fuel evaporates once the oil has reached operating temperature long enough, but with frequent short distance driving it can accumulate. It's become a factor to the point that some newer engines have now sensors to detect the fuel contamination in the oil and advise the driver to go for a longer drive when it's too high. Newer Audi engines for example have this and the message popping up is somewhat common for those who do frequent short trips.
I avoid short trips as much as possible with my AMG. As said above, I always look at the oil temperature and I add some extra distance if I do go for a short drive to make sure the oil and transmission reach operating temperature for a while before I park the car again. I live in a highly walkable area with grocery stores and many of the services and businesses I frequent regularly within a 10 to 15 minute walk or bicycle ride, so the car stays in the garage most weekdays and only comes out for longer distances. I also work from home, so no commuting. My previous car which was my first direct injection engine ended up needing a carbon clean eventually. I did quite a bit of short distance driving with it.
Last edited by superswiss; Apr 20, 2024 at 01:30 PM.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
As @superswiss said and if you Google the effect of short distance driving on engines with direct injection (GDI), you'll find that it contributes to carbon buildup on the intake valves. (So does long oil drain intervals. So change your oil with Mercedes approved full-synthetic oil every 3000 to 5000 miles.). Old-style port injection engines don't suffer carbon buildup the same way since gasoline is injected into the intake manifold BEFORE the intake valves and serves to wash them clean.
"Is it bad for a gasoline engine to just take short trips?" Yes.
Also, it's important to understand what operating temperature means. Most normal cars only show coolant temperature in the instrument cluster and it's mostly an idiot gauge that hovers around 50% regardless of what the actual coolant temperature is, unless the engine is overheating. However, it's the oil temperature that matters and the oil warms up slower than the coolant. If the oil doesn't reach operating temperature, then the trip is too short.
Also, it's important to understand what operating temperature means. Most normal cars only show coolant temperature in the instrument cluster and it's mostly an idiot gauge that hovers around 50% regardless of what the actual coolant temperature is, unless the engine is overheating. However, it's the oil temperature that matters and the oil warms up slower than the coolant. If the oil doesn't reach operating temperature, then the trip is too short.
Thanks for the detailed answer. Will definitely take some longer trips in the future. What does a carbon clean involves? And is it pricey?
Thanks for the detailed answer. Will definitely take some longer trips in the future. What does a carbon clean involves? And is it pricey?
There are mainly two ways of doing it. Both require the removal of the intake manifold. The first approach is walnut blasting. It uses crushed walnuts and compressed air to knock the carbon loose and then vacuuming it out. This one gets a bit messy as despite the adapters, some of the walnuts end up in the engine bay. The second approach is soaking the intake ports and valves with solvent and then scrape it out. The shop I took mine to used the latter approach. I paid just shy of $1700 back in 2018. The cost varies from vehicle to vehicle depending on how involved it is to take off the manifold and how many cylinders/valves. Mine was a V8. The more cylinders the more expensive. I did it around 60k miles, but really it would have been necessary at 30k miles and then every 30k miles after that. The performance difference was quite noticeable afterwards. I sold the car with 73k miles, so I only did one carbon clean.
There are mainly two ways of doing it. Both require the removal of the intake manifold. The first approach is walnut blasting. It uses crushed walnuts and compressed air to knock the carbon loose and then vacuuming it out. This one gets a bit messy as despite the adapters, some of the walnuts end up in the engine bay. The second approach is soaking the intake ports and valves with solvent and then scrape it out. The shop I took mine to used the latter approach. I paid just shy of $1700 back in 2018. The cost varies from vehicle to vehicle depending on how involved it is to take off the manifold and how many cylinders/valves. Mine was a V8. The more cylinders the more expensive. I did it around 60k miles, but really it would have been necessary at 30k miles and then every 30k miles after that. The performance difference was quite noticeable afterwards. I sold the car with 73k miles, so I only did one carbon clean.
Ah, come to think of it, I have heard about the walnut method before. But do you need to get the RPM up high sometimes too or is it enough with just longer trips?
@superswiss love your username! We've enjoyed many trips to Switzerland. Where are you from?
Nice pics. I was born in Winterthur near Zurich, but we then moved to the country side near the St. Gallen Rhine Valley and Lake Walenstadt when I was 5. These days I'm only going back to visit my family, but I've done a couple of European Deliveries such as with my AMG, so driving around my old turf with my new car was a great experience. Below pics is my car parked at my parent's house and the view from my old bedroom of the Churfirsten mountain range.
Ah, come to think of it, I have heard about the walnut method before. But do you need to get the RPM up high sometimes too or is it enough with just longer trips?
I'm a firm believer of "A redline a day keeps the mechanic away" . Just like the good ol' Italian tune up, driving an engine at high RPM and load is good for it to blow the gunk through that hasn't hardened yet and there's evidence that it helps with reducing carbon buildup.
Nice pics. I was born in Winterthur near Zurich, but we then moved to the country side near the St. Gallen Rhine Valley and Lake Walenstadt when I was 5. These days I'm only going back to visit my family, but I've done a couple of European Deliveries such as with my AMG, so driving around my old turf with my new car was a great experience. Below pics is my car parked at my parent's house and the view from my old bedroom of the Churfirsten mountain range.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Actually, using a high-quality, full synthetic motor oil with frequent changes (every 3000-5000 miles) will effectively keep the carbon build-up down. On GDI engines, the carbon buildup on the intake valves is mostly due to PCV routing atomized oil and other gases from the valve train being recirculated back through the intake manifold and being deposited on the intake valves. The problem is that with recommended extended oil changes (like most manufacturers recommend simply for marketing purposes) carbon and other waste material that are suspended in the oil from normal engine wear get deposited on the intake valves and bake there. That's why frequent oil changes help reduce those deposits.
That said, short trips or slow driving (such as in traffic) also don't create sufficient intake pressure to blow the unburnt oil off of the intake valves. So, the Italian Tuneup may help with that.
Actually, using a high-quality, full synthetic motor oil with frequent changes (every 3000-5000 miles) will effectively keep the carbon build-up down. On GDI engines, the carbon buildup on the intake valves is mostly due to PCV routing atomized oil and other gases from the valve train being recirculated back through the intake manifold and being deposited on the intake valves. The problem is that with recommended extended oil changes (like most manufacturers recommend simply for marketing purposes) carbon and other waste material that are suspended in the oil from normal engine wear get deposited on the intake valves and bake there. That's why frequent oil changes help reduce those deposits.
That said, short trips or slow driving (such as in traffic) also don't create sufficient intake pressure to blow the unburnt oil off of the intake valves. So, the Italian Tuneup may help with that.
Yeah, it's exactly the PCV ( I think) I've had problems with. Had oil loss, but no visible leak, occasional burned smell from under the hood. P0171 and p0172 codes coming and going. And the old part looked like it has seen better days.
Nice pics. I was born in Winterthur near Zurich, but we then moved to the country side near the St. Gallen Rhine Valley and Lake Walenstadt when I was 5. These days I'm only going back to visit my family, but I've done a couple of European Deliveries such as with my AMG, so driving around my old turf with my new car was a great experience. Below pics is my car parked at my parent's house and the view from my old bedroom of the Churfirsten mountain range.
OK, would you Swiss guys agree with this statement? When I asked a Zurich friend what was the difference between German and Swiss-German preferences for cars, he responded that Germans prefer the largest car with the smallest motor whereas Swiss-Germans prefer the smallest car with the largest motor!
OK, would you Swiss guys agree with this statement? When I asked a Zurich friend what was the difference between German and Swiss-German preferences for cars, he responded that Germans prefer the largest car with the smallest motor whereas Swiss-Germans prefer the smallest car with the largest motor!
Well, my '13 is getting old with almost 96k now so I've been shopping, I'm not happy with the sound or performance of the new E350, engine is a noisy four banger, the E450 is 90k with decent options, so I went to look at Lexus, the GS was the nicest, but too big, so after some test drives, I like the IS500, so small car big motor! I might also choose the IS350 F Sport, which was pretty fast and comparable to my 3.5 E350, my wife doesn't like the BMW 5 series, and we both hate the Audi A4 and A6, seats are terrible,just yuck! But I guess like Oil viscosity, Gas brands and politics, everybody has an opinion. I have owned 11 Benz's over the lat 25 years, I love the brand but the engine is just not great, even though improved in '20, sounds like a Chevy Vega ,LOL Those Germans buy those S350's, why I'll never know, but gas is not cheap and a lot of Euros buy diesels.
2015 SL400 (M276 Turbo), 2014 C350 Sport (M276 NA), 2004 SL500 (M113), 2004 Audi TT225 (BEA)
Originally Posted by pierrejoliat
Well, my '13 is getting old with almost 96k now so I've been shopping, I'm not happy with the sound or performance of the new E350, engine is a noisy four banger, the E450 is 90k with decent options, so I went to look at Lexus, the GS was the nicest, but too big, so after some test drives, I like the IS500, so small car big motor! I might also choose the IS350 F Sport, which was pretty fast and comparable to my 3.5 E350, my wife doesn't like the BMW 5 series, and we both hate the Audi A4 and A6, seats are terrible,just yuck! But I guess like Oil viscosity, Gas brands and politics, everybody has an opinion. I have owned 11 Benz's over the lat 25 years, I love the brand but the engine is just not great, even though improved in '20, sounds like a Chevy Vega ,LOL Those Germans buy those S350's, why I'll never know, but gas is not cheap and a lot of Euros buy diesels.
I'm not sure I would want a new Mercedes either. Up front cost. Sewing machine engines. Less power. Too much touch-screen stuff.
I happen to love my 2015 SL400 with the 3.0 liter M276 bi-turbo. Tuned, I'm probably getting around 400 hp. And the room in the engine bay is great for DIY work. My 2014 C350 Sport has 302 hp stock and can certainly holds its own.
I would suggest looking for a nice Mercedes in the 2015-2020 model years.
Last edited by JettaRed; Apr 22, 2024 at 06:09 PM.
OK, would you Swiss guys agree with this statement? When I asked a Zurich friend what was the difference between German and Swiss-German preferences for cars, he responded that Germans prefer the largest car with the smallest motor whereas Swiss-Germans prefer the smallest car with the largest motor!
Yes, there's truth to that. Not sure if it's necessarily the biggest motor with the smallest car, but it's along those lines. The Swiss prefer small compact cars, because everything is small. Parking structures are tight etc. I always rent a hatchback generally when I go home, because larger cars are just kind of a handful. The Germans on the other hand like to drive a big BMW etc. with a relatively small diesel engine for tax reasons. Vehicle taxes in Europe are based on the engine size, so the smaller the engine the cheaper. Then they debadge it, so others don't know that they have a small engine. But you pretty much know when you come across a debadged car, that it has a small engine. There are some that debadge the big engine cars as well, because they don't want anybody to know that they have a big engine. It's less and less socially acceptable to drive a fat AMG or BMW M etc. Flaunting wealth in Europe is frowned upon, and these days you get the stink eye if you show up in a gas guzzler.
Well, my '13 is getting old with almost 96k now so I've been shopping, I'm not happy with the sound or performance of the new E350, engine is a noisy four banger, the E450 is 90k with decent options, so I went to look at Lexus, the GS was the nicest, but too big, so after some test drives, I like the IS500, so small car big motor! I might also choose the IS350 F Sport, which was pretty fast and comparable to my 3.5 E350, my wife doesn't like the BMW 5 series, and we both hate the Audi A4 and A6, seats are terrible,just yuck! But I guess like Oil viscosity, Gas brands and politics, everybody has an opinion. I have owned 11 Benz's over the lat 25 years, I love the brand but the engine is just not great, even though improved in '20, sounds like a Chevy Vega ,LOL Those Germans buy those S350's, why I'll never know, but gas is not cheap and a lot of Euros buy diesels.
96 k miles? And that is what you think makes it old? I have almost 190 000 miles on my 2010 E550 and I love the car. This car never gets old as 2010 and 2011 are the best E-Class designs MB ever made. They ruined it after that for looks going to that space ship look. And they made brakes smaller and I don't even know what else they saved money on.
Go find a used 2010 - 2011 E550 and you won't be disappointed.
An old relative Louis Joliat came with Father Marquette in the 1600's, There is a Joliat county just north of Montreal and a town south of Chicago named after him, My grandfather came here to attend University. I live and grew up in the CLE suburbs. I go to Switzerland every 3-5 years to visit relatives.
Last edited by pierrejoliat; Apr 23, 2024 at 11:02 PM.
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.
. Just like the good ol' Italian tune up, driving an engine at high RPM and load is good for it to blow the gunk through that hasn't hardened yet and there's evidence that it helps with reducing carbon buildup.
