Why do the German's use Lug Bolts instead of Lug Nuts?
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Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Willow Park, Texas
GLC 300 GLS 450
Why do the German's use Lug Bolts instead of Lug Nuts?
I have always wondered why the Germans prefer to make it so hard to put a wheel on their cars. It is so much easier to hang the wheel on the lug bolts and put the nuts on than to have to hold up the wheel and get the bolt started. Yes I know you can put in the pin to hang the wheel on but why bother????
Reb
Reb
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From: NW corner of CONUS
2008 GL 320 CDI, 2004 VW V10 Touareg TDI
Part of the answer may be cost - pressing studs into a rotor or drum assembly is an extra manufacturing expense that disappears when bolts are used (the relative cost difference of the studs/nuts vs the bolts is very small). Assembly costs are not changed because either bolts have to be spun in and torqued OR nuts have to be spun on and torqued.
How easy/hard it is for you and I to remove/replace a wheel is not relevant to their calculation. In fact, 'they' may try to push you to a dealer by making your task more difficult.
There MAY be studies that show that one attachment method is better, more reliable, or worse than another but I haven't seen such studies.
How easy/hard it is for you and I to remove/replace a wheel is not relevant to their calculation. In fact, 'they' may try to push you to a dealer by making your task more difficult.
There MAY be studies that show that one attachment method is better, more reliable, or worse than another but I haven't seen such studies.
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From: Albuquerque
'10 CL550, '12 GL550
Hanging a wheel on a stud is a great way to damage threads.
Damaged threads on a lug bolt just means need for one new lug bolt, not removing hub, replacing stud, etc.
I have an old 1981 VW Vanagon--it uses lug bolts on front wheels and lug nuts on studs on the rear wheels.
Damaged threads on a lug bolt just means need for one new lug bolt, not removing hub, replacing stud, etc.
I have an old 1981 VW Vanagon--it uses lug bolts on front wheels and lug nuts on studs on the rear wheels.
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From: McLean, VA
2011 Audi A4, 2014 E63S Wagon, 2020 GLS 580
Using lug bolts also gives you more variation in terms of the wheels and offsets you can use. Not maybe as relevant with an SUV but with sports cars you can do with different size spaces to give a positive offset and wider track. All you have to do is add an spacer and a longer lug bolt.
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From: NW corner of CONUS
2008 GL 320 CDI, 2004 VW V10 Touareg TDI
Using lug bolts also gives you more variation in terms of the wheels and offsets you can use. Not maybe as relevant with an SUV but with sports cars you can do with different size spaces to give a positive offset and wider track. All you have to do is add an spacer and a longer lug bolt.
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1988 ford mustang
Hanging a wheel on a stud is a great way to damage threads.
Damaged threads on a lug bolt just means need for one new lug bolt, not removing hub, replacing stud, etc.
I have an old 1981 VW Vanagon--it uses lug bolts on front wheels and lug nuts on studs on the rear wheels.
Damaged threads on a lug bolt just means need for one new lug bolt, not removing hub, replacing stud, etc.
I have an old 1981 VW Vanagon--it uses lug bolts on front wheels and lug nuts on studs on the rear wheels.
hanging a tire on the stud isn't that bad for it. The biggest threat is cross threading which is a risk on bolts or lugs system.
Now pretend you just cross threaded a bolt/nut which would you rather replace 1 nut/stud (which isnt to hard on most cars) or replace the whole wheel hub because one hole is cross threaded
1 nut/stud will cost you 3$ where as vw will as an arm and a leg for the whole hub
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From: CA
11 ML550, 95 Supra TT, 14 Audi S4
I'm not sure why, but it sure makes changing a tire/wheel more work than it needs to be especially with a large SUV wheel/tire combo. I've somehow managed to never damage a stud in hundreds of wheel changes for track event/autoxes so it can't be that big of an issue.
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From: Seattle, WA
2001 SLK 230, 2007 GL 450
I dunno, maybe it's just me but with the little wheel hanger tool that comes with the car (aluminum rod threaded on the end in with the tire jack) makes it easier than studs.
Rotate the rotor so a hole is at the 12:00 position, thread it in real quick, place tire and go from there. The couple seconds it takes to use that little rod makes it a lot easier.
Rotate the rotor so a hole is at the 12:00 position, thread it in real quick, place tire and go from there. The couple seconds it takes to use that little rod makes it a lot easier.
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From: Espoo, Finland
2012 GL 350
I didn't pay attention when looking at the tool kit on my GL, but my BMW's have all come with a tool that you insert into one of the bolt holes and you hang the wheel on that; makes things much easier. You could probably pick one up on eBay or from a BMW specialist shop - this one is from Turner:
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From: CA
11 ML550, 95 Supra TT, 14 Audi S4
The stud that comes with the tools does make wheel changes easier, but 5 studs makes it even easier.
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Hopefully they didn't copy much else. A private tank museum out here was in the process of restoring a Panther when I went on a tour a few years ago, and they said the level of needless complexity of the mechanicals was amazing compared to a Sherman or a T34.
The stud that comes with the tools does make wheel changes easier, but 5 studs makes it even easier.
The stud that comes with the tools does make wheel changes easier, but 5 studs makes it even easier.
It is obvious they did! (Now needless complexity of electricals has been added)
No it doesn't.
1 you can use as a pivot to rotate on, 5 have to all be lined up at the same time just to hang the wheel.
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the germans have the philosophy of "achieve machine objective at any technical (complexity) cost". so when it works - it works well. however, maintenance affordability has always been not a mission priority for them.
germans like to show off when they make machinery, but they design and build things like their worst enemy will be maintaining it... lol...
Last edited by alx; Jan 28, 2014 at 09:56 AM.
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From: CA
11 ML550, 95 Supra TT, 14 Audi S4
Originally Posted by N_Jay;5922435
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No it doesn't.
1 you can use as a pivot to rotate on, 5 have to all be lined up at the same time just to hang the wheel.
It is definitely faster than digging the stud out of the spare tire kit, screwing it in, putting the wheel on, rotating the wheel, putting in 4 bolts, unscrewing the stud and putting it back into the spare tire kit, and then putting the fifth bolt in.
ALX - if you're interested in WWII stuff, you would have loved this collection: http://www.mvtf.org/ It was the world's largest private collection of military vehicles with warehouses full of historically significant stuff. Unfortunately, the owner died, and the collection is in the process of being sold off and split up.
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For someone who does it enough, you are probably right, but for someone changing a tire once in a bluemoon, it is a lot easier to hang it on a long stud, and rotate than to hang it on a couple of threads on one stud of the five the same length and not have it slip off.
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From: Montreal, Canada
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hanging a tire on the stud isn't that bad for it. The biggest threat is cross threading which is a risk on bolts or lugs system.
Now pretend you just cross threaded a bolt/nut which would you rather replace 1 nut/stud (which isnt to hard on most cars) or replace the whole wheel hub because one hole is cross threaded
1 nut/stud will cost you 3$ where as vw will as an arm and a leg for the whole hub
Now pretend you just cross threaded a bolt/nut which would you rather replace 1 nut/stud (which isnt to hard on most cars) or replace the whole wheel hub because one hole is cross threaded
1 nut/stud will cost you 3$ where as vw will as an arm and a leg for the whole hub
$3 stud or $300 hub, bearing + $3 bolt + labour if you hire that out...
Junior Member
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From: Montreal, Canada
Benz GL320 CDI
Hanging a wheel on a stud is a great way to damage threads.
Damaged threads on a lug bolt just means need for one new lug bolt, not removing hub, replacing stud, etc.
I have an old 1981 VW Vanagon--it uses lug bolts on front wheels and lug nuts on studs on the rear wheels.
Damaged threads on a lug bolt just means need for one new lug bolt, not removing hub, replacing stud, etc.
I have an old 1981 VW Vanagon--it uses lug bolts on front wheels and lug nuts on studs on the rear wheels.
Anyway, a stud is inherently stronger than a bolt. Ask any engine builder.
And I'm sure that assembly line machines can install nuts as easy as bolts too.
I would bet that the Germans just use bolts cus they always have... similar to why Brits drive on the left...
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2012 MB Gl450 / 2007 Lincoln MKX / 2004 Nissan Xterra / 2002 Nissan Frontier Quad Cab XE Longbed
It's just a tire change....
Old post, but...criminy folks...its just a tire change. If you're to scrawny, or non-mechabled, to complete the evolution....buy a schwinn.
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Wrong Question.
As any good German knows, the correct question is "Why do all the other car companies do it the wrong way!?!"
As any good German knows, the correct question is "Why do all the other car companies do it the wrong way!?!"
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'07 GL450
Timely as I just rotated my tires, and was reminded how much I hate lug bolts. Every time I rotate tires I swear to myself I'm never doing it again and will pay someone to do it! They're the worst!
Last edited by StradaRedlands; Nov 30, 2019 at 09:06 PM.
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A gaggle of MB's
So you know - your lug bolts are M14 x 1.5 - and there are "wheel hangars" or "lug bolt guides" which take the "pain" out of he job... it's what competant shops use..
Amazon 2-pin set like $20:
ReverseLogic pins are a work of art: https://www.reverselogic.us/lug-guides.html
Amazon 2-pin set like $20:
ReverseLogic pins are a work of art: https://www.reverselogic.us/lug-guides.html
