Possible bad torque converter on ml320
03-24-2018, 09:17 PM
#1
Newbie
Thread Starter
Possible bad torque converter on ml320
Hello everyone. I am an avid mercedes diy'er.This is my first post and I truly need some expert advice on this one. I have followed this blog for some time and came across tons of great insight from other 722.6 issues and problems.
At this point I'm at a crossroad with my 2000 Ml320 135,000 miles, It feels as if I'm driving over a rumble strip/ shudder at all speeds.If I go over 15mph the car shudders so bad I feel like my tires are falling off. Goes in reverse great,idles very well.seems like it wants to go but something is holding it back feels like torque converter is staying locked.Using star diagnostics,no codes are present in Trans module or main ecu.Trans Module has been reset with very slight improvement.The transmission itself seems to be good. I"m stumped to what it could be A: problem torque converter that has gone bad or B:possible issue in the valve body itself(broken spring,bad stuck valve?) Can a bad torque converter be confirmed without pulling it from vehicle,when no codes are present related to it, I inspected it as well as I could while trying to find TC drain( My 2000 does not have drain on it just a mark for its cutout) No sign of oil leaks,and no noise or rattle coming from torque converter.
What has been done so far in engine comp is new plugs,new wires,and coils all tested 100%, fuel rail pulled all injectors serviced(new filters,pintle caps and tested),new motor mounts,EGR and egr tube cleaned,all rubber hoses new(no vac leaks anywhere),throttle position sensor, new.crank sensor, new fuel pump,filter and fuel lines,new battery.new valve gaskets,new tires,alignment and everything in front end (upper and lower tie rods,ball joints etc,)all new. Cats and oxygen sensors all test good.
What has been done to transmission so far,(but no fix thus far) is pan and valve body dropped:new conductor plate,new fluid and filter,new 13 pin connector/ o rings,replacement matching/working tcu module,new pan gasket,new tcc /lock up solenoid,new trans cooler lines and new trans mount. All OEM parts other than Bosch Iridium plugs, battery(autozone platinum,glass mat) and transmission fluid (Valvoline maxlife)
The problem occured while driving 65 mph on a NJ highway and it felt like someone just cut power from vehicle,then major shudder at all speeds. Idles smooth and goes in reverse fine. At first I thought a batch of bad gas caused this, as this happened after filling up. My mobile Mercedes tech ran all star diagnostics and came up empty- no codes anywhere and nothing hidden in the trans module. Resetting the module resulted in a slight improvement as in maybe 2% less shuddering.The entire drivetrain is good.good flexplates,nothing mechanically bad from front to rear.Troubleshooting brought us to some possibilities- tcc solenoid was not functioning properly,Bad tcm module or worse case scenario bad torque converter with no traditional noise,rattle or any signs its going bad.
Now I dropped the pan and got into it. There was no sign of oil contamination on 13 pin connector,no signs of oil in tcm module. The fluid was slightly dirty with slight grey soot in pan,No coolant contamination(Yes it is a Valeo radiator but appears 100% good) no metal debris,no burnt smell and the filter was black but not clogged and no metal debri. So now: new fluid,filter,conductor plate,tcc/lock up solenoid and cooler lines in. Level perfect at 80c. All other solenoids ohm readings were tested and in the norm.Old tcc/lock up solenoid ohm reading was fine also but a new one was installed.
I was hoping my problem was going to be fixed after above was done-It still has problem, so now I need some help before I resort to replacing torque converter Should I A) drop the pan and valve body to check valve body internally for broken springs,stuck valves?This doesn't seem to be a major ml problem but it is on many other models with 722.6 or B) check torque converter somehow in vehicle which I'm not sure of best way to do when it shows no traditional problems (ie: leaks,noise, reverse issues) I need some of your expert advice on what to do next or anything I missed prior.
Thanks in advance,Mike
At this point I'm at a crossroad with my 2000 Ml320 135,000 miles, It feels as if I'm driving over a rumble strip/ shudder at all speeds.If I go over 15mph the car shudders so bad I feel like my tires are falling off. Goes in reverse great,idles very well.seems like it wants to go but something is holding it back feels like torque converter is staying locked.Using star diagnostics,no codes are present in Trans module or main ecu.Trans Module has been reset with very slight improvement.The transmission itself seems to be good. I"m stumped to what it could be A: problem torque converter that has gone bad or B:possible issue in the valve body itself(broken spring,bad stuck valve?) Can a bad torque converter be confirmed without pulling it from vehicle,when no codes are present related to it, I inspected it as well as I could while trying to find TC drain( My 2000 does not have drain on it just a mark for its cutout) No sign of oil leaks,and no noise or rattle coming from torque converter.
What has been done so far in engine comp is new plugs,new wires,and coils all tested 100%, fuel rail pulled all injectors serviced(new filters,pintle caps and tested),new motor mounts,EGR and egr tube cleaned,all rubber hoses new(no vac leaks anywhere),throttle position sensor, new.crank sensor, new fuel pump,filter and fuel lines,new battery.new valve gaskets,new tires,alignment and everything in front end (upper and lower tie rods,ball joints etc,)all new. Cats and oxygen sensors all test good.
What has been done to transmission so far,(but no fix thus far) is pan and valve body dropped:new conductor plate,new fluid and filter,new 13 pin connector/ o rings,replacement matching/working tcu module,new pan gasket,new tcc /lock up solenoid,new trans cooler lines and new trans mount. All OEM parts other than Bosch Iridium plugs, battery(autozone platinum,glass mat) and transmission fluid (Valvoline maxlife)
The problem occured while driving 65 mph on a NJ highway and it felt like someone just cut power from vehicle,then major shudder at all speeds. Idles smooth and goes in reverse fine. At first I thought a batch of bad gas caused this, as this happened after filling up. My mobile Mercedes tech ran all star diagnostics and came up empty- no codes anywhere and nothing hidden in the trans module. Resetting the module resulted in a slight improvement as in maybe 2% less shuddering.The entire drivetrain is good.good flexplates,nothing mechanically bad from front to rear.Troubleshooting brought us to some possibilities- tcc solenoid was not functioning properly,Bad tcm module or worse case scenario bad torque converter with no traditional noise,rattle or any signs its going bad.
Now I dropped the pan and got into it. There was no sign of oil contamination on 13 pin connector,no signs of oil in tcm module. The fluid was slightly dirty with slight grey soot in pan,No coolant contamination(Yes it is a Valeo radiator but appears 100% good) no metal debris,no burnt smell and the filter was black but not clogged and no metal debri. So now: new fluid,filter,conductor plate,tcc/lock up solenoid and cooler lines in. Level perfect at 80c. All other solenoids ohm readings were tested and in the norm.Old tcc/lock up solenoid ohm reading was fine also but a new one was installed.
I was hoping my problem was going to be fixed after above was done-It still has problem, so now I need some help before I resort to replacing torque converter Should I A) drop the pan and valve body to check valve body internally for broken springs,stuck valves?This doesn't seem to be a major ml problem but it is on many other models with 722.6 or B) check torque converter somehow in vehicle which I'm not sure of best way to do when it shows no traditional problems (ie: leaks,noise, reverse issues) I need some of your expert advice on what to do next or anything I missed prior.
Thanks in advance,Mike
Last edited by edlemic; 03-25-2018 at 12:36 AM. Reason: Additional info I forgot to include
03-25-2018, 03:29 AM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
You must understand that you cannot own one of these vehicles without having a scanner. $50 code readers will not do the trick.
With all the parts replacements that you have done, it is very possible that you have corrected the condition, BUT if the codes are not cleared from both the ECU and ETC, the problem will persist until ALL the codes have been cleared.
With all the parts replacements that you have done, it is very possible that you have corrected the condition, BUT if the codes are not cleared from both the ECU and ETC, the problem will persist until ALL the codes have been cleared.
03-25-2018, 06:16 AM
#3
Newbie
Thread Starter
No codes
Hi MajDundee, Thanks for response. Yes, I agree I do need a good scanner/reader. But the main issue is there are NO codes in either the ECUor ETC modules. Both supposedly checked and neither showing any codes. I had a mobile Mercedes mechanic use the SDS and look over the vehicle and test various components and clear anything present which has all been done and no codes are stored or currently showing. There have never been any trans codes. Could something have been missed with his SDS system if latest software upgrades were not present? Just wondering? And just an FYI all repair work posted above was not directly related to this current problem. I just wanted to list it all repairs so anyone reading post had background on what has been done. I will be ordering a good diagnostic reader today any suggestions? I was leaning towards an Autel Mercedes specific.
Last edited by edlemic; 03-25-2018 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Add info
03-25-2018, 06:33 AM
#4
MBWorld Fanatic!
Yes, the Autel 802 is my recommendation but it is not M/B specific, it will function on any veh..
A code reader is one thing, usually will only read eng. codes. Never consider one
A code reader is one thing, usually will only read eng. codes. Never consider one
03-25-2018, 09:54 AM
#5
Newbie
Thread Starter
Next step to find a solution?
Maj. Dundee, I will get my scanner and make sure all codes if found are cleared from both ETC & ECU. I'm ordering one today, hopefully have it in a day or two. I will let you know if I find any codes. I hope this is just a matter of properly clearing any code that may be in ECU or hidden in ETC. Thanks
03-25-2018, 11:56 AM
#6
MBWorld Fanatic!
Last edited by Maj. Dundee; 03-25-2018 at 11:59 AM.
03-25-2018, 01:19 PM
#7
Newbie
Thread Starter
Deciding on scanner & cel light pos 2
Maj.Dundee,
Yes, that is the autel I'm looking at. I have also read a lot of good thing about the Icarsoft MBii scanner this morning. That looks like it can clear and reset all modules. I'm between the two,Any thoughts on the Icarsoft meii? As far as CEL light Im away from vehicle but yes I do believe CEL light shows on key/ignition pos 2.then goes out once vehicle is started.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-BE...19.m1438.l2649
Yes, that is the autel I'm looking at. I have also read a lot of good thing about the Icarsoft MBii scanner this morning. That looks like it can clear and reset all modules. I'm between the two,Any thoughts on the Icarsoft meii? As far as CEL light Im away from vehicle but yes I do believe CEL light shows on key/ignition pos 2.then goes out once vehicle is started.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-BE...19.m1438.l2649
Last edited by edlemic; 03-25-2018 at 01:28 PM. Reason: add link
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03-26-2018, 04:52 AM
#8
MBWorld Fanatic!
Maj.Dundee,
Yes, that is the autel I'm looking at. I have also read a lot of good thing about the Icarsoft MBii scanner this morning. That looks like it can clear and reset all modules. I'm between the two,Any thoughts on the Icarsoft meii? As far as CEL light Im away from vehicle but yes I do believe CEL light shows on key/ignition pos 2.then goes out once vehicle is started.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-BE...19.m1438.l2649
Yes, that is the autel I'm looking at. I have also read a lot of good thing about the Icarsoft MBii scanner this morning. That looks like it can clear and reset all modules. I'm between the two,Any thoughts on the Icarsoft meii? As far as CEL light Im away from vehicle but yes I do believe CEL light shows on key/ignition pos 2.then goes out once vehicle is started.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-BE...19.m1438.l2649
03-26-2018, 05:45 PM
#9
Newbie
Thread Starter
final decision on scanner....should be here today
After much conteplation and research between the Icarsoft mbII vs autel md802 full system (not 4 system), I chose the Autel MD802 maxidiag elite full system scanner (amazon Link is above in thread its for full system) Comparing boh the Autel and Icarsoft they are practically identical in all features and functions. The main difference is the autel will give more and broader live stream info.The autel can also link up with your windows system so you can store diagnostic info, the Icarsoft MBII does not transfer and save info to your windows computer. All in all only a minimal difference I found between them,my Autel will offer a slightly advantage. I have not used either unit so my opinion is from information I have sourced from many different places.My unit should be here shortly,amazon same day shipping awesome stuff and I will post follow up tomorrow. Hopefully I have and can find a code- Never thought I would say that......
03-27-2018, 11:48 AM
#11
Newbie
Thread Starter
Found codes
Very Interesting, I hook up scanner,start vehicle and there are no codes present anywhere not in ETC,Not in ECU,none anywhere. I shut ml off and start another diagnostic scan.While scanning I start vehicle and decide to drive it around my block 5-15mph all of a sudden bas/esp/abs all three lights come on.Is this a blessing or curse?Now i'm thinking I wanted codes,I got codes. I park vehicle back in my driveway and keep it running. Run another all system scan and here we go:
C1401 A7/3ML HIGH PRESSURE & RETURN PUMP, C1140-007 N49 STEERING ANGLE SENSOR ,C1140-8 COMPONENT N49 STEERING ANGLE SENSOR , C1101-016 L6/2 RIGHT FRONT SPEED SENSOR OPEN CIRCUIT IN WIRING (*NOTE: these 4 codes went away after driving vehicle a second time after scan,reset themselves,I did not have to clear them)
The codes that also showed and now the 2 codes that have stayed were:
ME/SF1 MOTOR ELECTRONICS P1605 ROUGH ROAD DETECTION SIGNAL BY COMPARING WHEEL SPECS ,
ETC TRANS CODE 120 RF WHEEL SPEED TRACTION SYSTEM IS SPORADICALLY IMPLAUSIBLE
Maj.Dundee,Do you think I've been chasing a bad wheel sensor? or bad wire connection? or worse? Thanks again for all of your help.
C1401 A7/3ML HIGH PRESSURE & RETURN PUMP, C1140-007 N49 STEERING ANGLE SENSOR ,C1140-8 COMPONENT N49 STEERING ANGLE SENSOR , C1101-016 L6/2 RIGHT FRONT SPEED SENSOR OPEN CIRCUIT IN WIRING (*NOTE: these 4 codes went away after driving vehicle a second time after scan,reset themselves,I did not have to clear them)
The codes that also showed and now the 2 codes that have stayed were:
ME/SF1 MOTOR ELECTRONICS P1605 ROUGH ROAD DETECTION SIGNAL BY COMPARING WHEEL SPECS ,
ETC TRANS CODE 120 RF WHEEL SPEED TRACTION SYSTEM IS SPORADICALLY IMPLAUSIBLE
Maj.Dundee,Do you think I've been chasing a bad wheel sensor? or bad wire connection? or worse? Thanks again for all of your help.
Last edited by edlemic; 03-27-2018 at 01:41 PM. Reason: add info
03-28-2018, 05:13 PM
#12
MBWorld Fanatic!
The smoking gun is code C1401 which means the brushes in the Hydraulic Pump Motor have worn down. Link is supplied for brushes needed and should be obtained before removing the motor.
Refer to the link below to remove the motor. Remove left front wheel and fender liner. Then remove the two screws holding the motor in place.
Having a long screwdriver at hand, slowly withdraw the motor and make sure the cup behind the motor does not come out with the motor. Then you have to separate the pump motor but you must mark it before doing so.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w163...ml#post4229913
Order two brushes L5-5H in the 4th section from Carbonbrush.http://www.carbonbrush.com/automotivebrush.htm
Refer to the link below to remove the motor. Remove left front wheel and fender liner. Then remove the two screws holding the motor in place.
Having a long screwdriver at hand, slowly withdraw the motor and make sure the cup behind the motor does not come out with the motor. Then you have to separate the pump motor but you must mark it before doing so.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w163...ml#post4229913
Order two brushes L5-5H in the 4th section from Carbonbrush.http://www.carbonbrush.com/automotivebrush.htm
03-28-2018, 06:59 PM
#13
Newbie
Thread Starter
c1401 code
The smoking gun is code C1401 which means the brushes in the Hydraulic Pump Motor have worn down. Link is supplied for brushes needed and should be obtained before removing the motor.
Refer to the link below to remove the motor. Remove left front wheel and fender liner. Then remove the two screws holding the motor in place.
Having a long screwdriver at hand, slowly withdraw the motor and make sure the cup behind the motor does not come out with the motor. Then you have to separate the pump motor but you must mark it before doing so.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w163...ml#post4229913
Order two brushes L5-5H in the 4th section from Carbonbrush.http://www.carbonbrush.com/automotivebrush.htm
Refer to the link below to remove the motor. Remove left front wheel and fender liner. Then remove the two screws holding the motor in place.
Having a long screwdriver at hand, slowly withdraw the motor and make sure the cup behind the motor does not come out with the motor. Then you have to separate the pump motor but you must mark it before doing so.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w163...ml#post4229913
Order two brushes L5-5H in the 4th section from Carbonbrush.http://www.carbonbrush.com/automotivebrush.htm
03-29-2018, 11:41 AM
#14
MBWorld Fanatic!
Maj.Dundee, That repair has been done already. The funny thing is I used the forum discussion you put above to do the repair. Worked great got rid of light and code. Haven't seen that code or light in over a year. Could a wheel speed sensor going bad have caused problems in the abs system for that code to show again?
03-29-2018, 01:29 PM
#15
Newbie
Thread Starter
That is what has me puzzled. The interesting thing is when I scan vehicle with ESP off before scan no codes show. When I scan with ESP on codes appear even after being cleared. Can any other problems cause that code to appear like a YAW sensor? I'm not real familiar with that sensor but from reading other posts it looks like that can also mimic a lot of my problems and not show a code.
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