amg_w211

I recently bought a clean 2009 W164 ML320 Bluetec diesel (90k miles) for carrying my bikes to the mountains and for camping trips. The car gets pretty decent gas mileage, but I’m finding that the handling is pretty sloppy (bad side to side sway over bumps, and pretty bad, unsettled cornering at highway speeds). Currently, the car has all original suspension parts. I’m not looking to make a track SUV by any means but I’m just looking for sharper handling ride.

Nonetheless, I’m looking at doing the following—please comment if you have direct experience with them:

Bilstein HD shocks only
Bilstein HD shocks/ Eibach lowering springs combo.

For those that only did shocks only, was there a vast improvement? I would prefer the stock height for ground clearance, but I don’t mind cutting 1.5” ground clearance if the ride is sportier (without being harsh) and assuming I can align close to factory specs so don’t wear out the tires due to camber issues.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

I’ll also plan to replace the front sway bar bushings (should reduce side to side sway present on this vehicle) and change the front lower control arm, inner rear bushings (supposedly these fail early on the car), if not all front lower control arm bushings as they are pretty cheap.

amg_w211

Got some replies from forum members via PM, so I thought I'd share for others who may be asking the same question as I. Based on my goals of a tighter ride, I'm leaning towards Bilstein HD only (no lowering springs), but if others want to chime in who have done either, I'm all ears.

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BILSTEIN HD SHOCKS ONLY

"I didn't change the springs. Bought the ML320 used at 45k miles and didn't realize the OE shocks were already **** until I hit a pothole at 70 MPH on interstate and went airborne. Then I realized all along on patched pavement my wheels were leaving the ground.

Considering the OE "comfort" were gone so quickly I decided I had to try the HD. HD was great but for compliance on small stuff such as paint stripes on the road, tar snakes, and small cracks such as expansion joints. Rode better after being driven 30 minutes each day. But started off cold and stiff.

Didn't change ride height, didn't change springs, so tire wear was just fine."

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BILSTEIN HD / EIBACH LOWERING

"Yes, I'm still running the combo. The camber has actually been good. The rears I've just replaced wore out even. One thing is that it the handling comes with a bit firmer ride. It has that front bounce to it, like a lowered car. I constantly see my headlight cutoff bouncing at times. Not bad as a lowered civic or anything like that. I really should switch out the eibachs for my H&R's. I really wanted to try out that combo, just the hassle of labor. Either way, can't go wrong as it's better than stock. The H&R's blew my stock shocks in a real hurry. Good luck.

The body roll is way better with the combo, feels sporty/tight."

yister

If you don't care about the ride height, seems like good plan. I just couldn't stand the stock height, I wish I had airmatic.

Hary Gahtoe

I built a lowered V8 W204 and I didn't like the ride of a Bilstein Sport.
Valving and compression are softer with HD than a Sport, plus the fact you'll bottom out an HD and blow the seals within a month of driving due to the ride height dropping whereas Sports are designed by Bilstein expressly for a lowered coil setup.

TBH you do have real world alternatives that can build you feeling but that comes at a price.

A Bilstein HD is barely up to the call of DDing and asked to perform in tandem of a higher compression sporting spring thats shorter and you'll be wishing you saved the costs and unresponsiveness of a shock not designed to play at that level

Check out KW kits specifically designed for standard suspension W164's


https://www.tuningworld.com.au/index...&SubModel=W164

FWIW I have the Airmatic and it works wonderfully even after lowering

K-Mac

FOR THE W164/166 WE HAVE DESIGNED AND MANUFACTURE A FULL SET OF FRONT BUSHINGS (4) WITH TWICE THE LOAD BEARING AREA WHICH NOT ONLY RESOLVE THE PREMATURE FAILURE OF THE “2 REAR BUSHINGS” BUT ALSO INCORPORATE PRECISE ADJUSTMENT FOR BOTH CAMBER AND CASTER (CURRENTLY THERE IS ONLY FRONT TOE ADJUSTMENT).

CAMBER –Allows to actually change the tire contact angle, improving traction/safety with more even tire wear along with ability to reduce understeer or oversteer

CASTER – Resolves steering pull, increases steering response. With better turn in and high speed directional control, along with improved anti dive/lift under brake and acceleration.

For the rear we also manufacture set of the 4 main bushings (with twice the load bearing area). These also provide precise adjustment for Camber and Toe. Doubling the existing rear adjustment range.

K-MAC FRONT AND REAR ADJUSTER KITS MEANS FINALLY – YOU CAN FIX IT RIGHT THE 1ST TIME! No more ongoing trips to dealers or alignment shops or constantly changing tire brands trying to resolve costly premature edge tire wear/improve traction and/or steering pull. Brought about by worn bushings, altering vehicle height, fitting wide profile tires/wheel, load carrying or curb knock damage.

The unique patented design allows precise single wrench ongoing adjustment capability – on car accurately (under load) direct on alignment rack.

This K-MAC design breakthrough means no more need for labor intensive arm removal and disassembly each time to change settings!

Include instructions and bush extraction tubes (with no need to remove arms from vehicle)

*Front Camber and Caster kit #504016M $565

*Rear Camber and Toe kit #504026K $480

*(includes replacement of the 4 main suspension bushings)


Delivery price for MB World members USA/Canada is $30 one kit or $40 front and rear.

Payment can be made by PayPal, Visa, or MasterCard.

See link for latest 2016 catalog http://K-mac.com/mercedes/

Hary Gahtoe

Reviews of this product by forum members might suggest its use is somewhat limited and problematic but yes; the idea has merit despite a degradation in road isolation and harshness

https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c...it-review.html

amg_w211

UPDATE

I just got my W164 ML Bluetec back from the shop to get the following suspension parts replaced (my car has the steel springs suspension):

PARTS

Front shocks (2). Bilstein HD 24-124362 ($206/each from www.ajusa.com)
Rear shocks (2). Bilstein HD 24-124379 ($164/each)
Front lower control arm, front bushing (2). 1643330414 ($20/each from rmeuropean.com)
Front lower control arm, mid outer bushing (2). 1643330314 ($10/each)
Front lower control arm, rear bushing (2). 227532104 ($25/each)

LABOR

$721 (I got half off the rear shock install labor (saved $120) as I took apart the rear cargo bay when I attempted to do the rear shocks myself, but was unsuccesful as the lower shock mounting bolt was way tight, even with a 24" breaker bar; so off to the shop it went with the rear cargo bay exposed)

THE RIDE

As the original shocks that came on the car were mostly shot, with the new Bilstein HD shocks, I immediately noticed that the car no longer bounces up and down after pushing down on the bumper. Also backing out of the driveway and onto the street, it just absorbs the bump (instead of bouncing). As for the ride with Bilstein HD shocks, it firms it up a bit and no longer has a float. You feel some of the small bumps on the road (as opposed to floating over them), and I would describe the new ride sensation somewhat like a sports sedan, albeit a 5200 pound one. The ride with the Bilstein HD is definitely not harsh though and it would be what I expect a German car to have. It leans substantially less on the corners and makes driving the car fun again. The car now tracks straight when going over railroad tracks (before it would hit the tracks, and almost want to go a different direction--pretty scary; the worn shocks were probably lifting off the ground after hitting the tracks, like another W164 owner on old OEM shocks described to me).

If you wanted the factory cush ride, then I would stick with the non HD OEM Bilstein or OEM Sachs absorbers. However, I think Bilstein got it right with these HD shocks with the rebound and compression settings for better road feel without being harsh and elevating the handling performance up a notch from stock. Would I go with Bilstein HD again? Definitely--no complaints. Also, I am glad I didn't go with lowering springs as some have commented that lowering springs gives the car a front end bounce and being an SUV, I want to maintain as much of the original ground clearance as possible due to where I go for my outdoor adventures.

NOTES

1. My repair shop mentioned that my front lower control arm bushings were definitely worn. They usually are pretty conservative in their replacement of parts. They mentioned that the rearmost bushings were definitely needing replacement. The middle and front ones were also torn (but not as badly worn/torn as the rearmost bushing).

2. I've attached the factory service manual instructions for those who want to attempt the work themselves. But be forewarned the lower shock mounting bolts are very tight (even my shop mentioned the same thing), so either have a really long breaker bar, or just plan on having a trusted shop do them (like I did).

sgt1372

I know this is an old thread and in the W164 subforum but rather than create a similar thread in the W166 subforum, I decided to post here because my question is related to the discussion that the OP already started.

I just bought a 2012 ML350 4Matic (W166) a month ago with 98k miles on it. The Toyo Versado tires on it were shot and have already replaced them with a set of Continental Extreme Contact DWS 06 tires, which was one of the best rated all-season tires for the car available on Tire Rack. I'm aware that the printed tire pressure settings on the door jamb and gas tank fill cover are inconsistent and, in the case of the door jamb, extremely high.

After playing around w/the tire pressures a bit, I set the pressures at 32 front and 38 rear. Handling with these tires and pressure settings feels pretty good to me -- not too much understeer or oversteer front to back -- but the suspension still feels too soft and "floaty." So, I am now thinking about changing the shocks. The original OEM shocks on the car now are not leaking and do not feel "shot" -- they are just too soft for my taste.

I have already read how stiffening both the shocks and coils in the ML350 has led to very poor results. I have no interest in lowering my suspension anyway, so changing the coils are not something I want to do. I was going to replace all 4 shocks with Bilstein B6 HD's until I found out that each shock will cost about $250 ($1k total) and labor would cost almost as much making it a $2k mod. Changing all 4 would keep the suspension "balanced" in the way that Bilstein intended w/the design of the shocks but that may not be what I'd prefer.

What I'm thinking about doing is only changing the front shocks to the stiffer B6 HD Bilsteins in order to further increase the understeer and reduce body roll in the front while leaving the rear handling unchanged. Further adjustments in tire pressures could be made to fine tune the result. If still unacceptable, I could then change the rear shocks to Bilsteins as well to see if Bilstein's design of their HD shocks for the ML350 actually provides better handling overall.

In any event, I'd like to know if anyone else has changed only their front shocks in either W164 or W166 ML350 and/or has attempted to "tune" their suspension in this way with Bilsteins or other shocks and, if so, what was the result. I do not know if the front control and/or thrust arm bushings on my car are worn out or not but would also like to know if replacing them is something that is routinely done with the replacement of the shocks.

Thanks in advance for any response.

sgt1372

Well, it seems that the Bilstein B6 HD shocks are back-ordered at Bilstein with an unknown availability date.

Took the ML-350 out for a ride today and paid special attention to the suspension. While it still feels a bit too soft to me, the shocks really really aren't THAT bad and, since the cost of the shocks/labor is so high and the availability of the shocks is uncertain, I think I'm just going to put this mod on the back burner until replacement of the shocks or some other suspension mod is clearly warranted.

PS: I just discovered that the passenger side front mud flap along the front edge of the wheel well cover was torn. So, I just cut off the dangling part. Rather than buy a new one, I just cut off the front mud flap on the driver's side as well to match. Never actually noticed the front mud flaps before but I think that the car actually looks much better without them. Didn't take b4 and after pics. So, you'll just have to take my word for it.

mikapen

Another resurrection of the thread - we traded our 2010 W164 for a 2014 W166 (both BlueTecs). On test drives, I always thought the W166 was a lot more floaty, with excess side-to-side tipping and leaning in corners.
After having the '14 W166 for a few thousand miles, I became pretty fed up with my "new" 1976 Chevy Caprice (that's what the handling reminded me of).
I got serious about tire pressures, and eventually went from the gas flap recommendations of 35F & 35R, to 41 front and 45 rear.. The fully loaded gas flap pressure is 45/48, and I'll try that next.
But now, with 41/45 psi, it's like a new suspension.
I actually have fun carving through canyons, where before I would turn the steering wheel, the car would lean, and eventually get around to turning. Much better now. And the jounce and rebound characteristics of the OEM shocks seem more suited to the OE springs, and the car in general, with reduced sidewall flexing.
So I recommend playing with your tire pressures before you change shocks / springs. You'll have to do that anyway if you do change, to maximize the advantage of the mods. For me, I'm satisfied - for the moment.

Hary Gahtoe

mikapen

Are you saying you have tried different tires and pressures? The ML/GLE suspension geometry is pretty sophisticated regarding dive and squat, just needing help with control.

My efforts are to get the best out of the steel suspension without heroic expenditures.
I agree with your commentary on the direction MB took with the W166 (comfort first), and I know the W164 is head and shoulders above the W166 steel suspension, having owned both.
I also know that tire pressures can get that back or more.
Further, my opinion is that pressures can do more than shocks on many vehicles. I know because I've done a lot of suspension work.

I am not a Bilstein fan because they work too much on compression and not enough on rebound. Of course they do nothing to address spring rates, which is what changing tire pressure does.

Yes I agree the AMG63's air suspension is better - the standard M-B air suspension (ML400?) is too slow. But the sensors required to make an AMG63 active suspension do not exist on lesser cars, so "changing calibration" does virtually nothing (unless there is a way to hack into the airbag/safety systems and somehow utilize those sensors).
Same with the air suspensions on Range Rover, Audi Q ships and Cayenne's without chassis control - you need more with those brands, to do more than just soak up bumps.(Well, the Cayenne does have it together in basic steel spring config.)

So I repeat - I suggest that people wanting to improve the handling characteristics try big swings in tire pressure before going springs and/or shocks. It may be just what you are looking for.

I might add the stiffer sway bar bushings - stock bushings wear out quickly, are pretty wimpy, and are easy to replace.

Let me put it another way: If you are running 32lbs, you will never achieve what you want, even with an AMG63.

Hary Gahtoe

mikapen

Hary, you are just wrong. Tire pressures have a profound effect on handling.
And suggesting that folks posting here would be trying suspension mods while driving on No Season, No Traction tires that are deflated to the minimum, is a bit silly.

To the rest of you - try tire pressure changes, to get an idea of what increased spring rates and increased slip angles feel like, before you launch into pricey mods.

You may or may not like it, OR you may achieve what you are looking for.

Hary Gahtoe

mikapen

sgt1372, This is my experience, and my opinions. I had a '10 W164 Bluetec - at 70,000 miles it needed all rear suspension bits replaced (done under warranty). The fronts were about there, too. ML's seem to respond more to increased rear roll stiffness, improving front turn-in and grip, so I felt an improvement (still all stock).

Now, like you, I have a '14 ML Bluetec, and it's handling (like all steel-sprung W164's) has gone way too far to the softer side. At 70,000 miles, I had the F&R suspension parts replaced, again under warranty - bushes, links, shocks etc. - and although there was a noticeable improvement here, too, it did not get rid of what I call "the floaty 164" suspension.

Thus the experimentation with tire pressures. MAJOR improvement. Although I am still on my 5/32" winter tires (while I investigate newer models of my favorite performance tires), the ML seems pretty good. Still a bit of delay on steering input, but grip is still there. Breakaway is both at higher Gs but more communicative and less abrupt. BTW the footprint didn't decrease measurably from 32 - 44 psi (rear) - sidewalls began to stiffen at 39.

Another comment - I tried the Continental Extreme Contact DWS tires (prior generation) and absolutely hated them. They added to the floaty-ness and required a lot more steering input, and added a new term to my handling: "squishiy." Plus they didn't stick worth a darn. I put 5,000 miles on them and just took them off.
I only tried pressures up to 40 on them because, as you say, the doorpost and gas flap numbers don't correspond. Tire Rack now places the Conti's last in a pack of 4 they tested.

mikapen

Despite my talking about tire pressure improvements, the reason I visited this thread was to see if there is any experience with non-stock suspension mods.
I have steel springs, a W164, and want to keep nearly the same ride height.
I am wearing 19 inchers now, and my drives with 20"-ers don't give the handling improvement they have on other autos I own or know. I just don't think the investment in 20" wheels, tires and TPMS sensors is warranted unless the suspension can be made better.

Since my W164 handled so much better, I wonder if those parts can be retro fitted to a 166.
Looking for experience with mods. Thanks.

mikapen

Thanks for the compliments.
Now,let's see if we can get you up to speed.
The door post placard on the W166 says inflation pressures are 45 front, 48 rear.
The fuel filler cap says "normal load" 35F/35R, and "maximum load" 41F/44R. And "warm tires" +4, and "For over 100 mph" +4
My comment was that an earlier poster's 32/38 might be a little low was based on those placards, as well as my experience.

I appreciate your opinion, but most people I know think tire pressure affects handling. In fact, most of them tune their handling with tire pressure.
It's the first thing we check in our clinics.

Hary Gahtoe

mikapen

Thanks for the info. I wish I had an Air Sport W164. The Sport suspension DOES have the input required to modify its characteristics. Sensors like steering wheel angle, yaw, lean, speed etc are already integrated into the suspension.
For Non-Sport air, those parameters are not integrated, or at least not used for suspension tuning, to my knowledge.

Can a SAM be reprogrammed to receive those inputs and shape the response curve of the standard air (non AMG)? Standard air suspension is just a bump-soaker-upper.

Doesn't apply to me, or sgt1372 - we have steel W166's. But other air suspended folks can use your findings.

I agree about shorter springs. There are too many drawbacks. For many who do off-road work, loss of ground clearance is not good.
Hence my comment about changing overall spring rates with tire pressure.

I'd like to find a standard height spring set, with a quicker progression in spring rate.
I'd like to find a shock that works more on rebound than jounce - just the opposite of Bilstein HD's approach.

(I misspoke in the preceding post (and corrected) - I moved to a 166 (steel springs) and long for the days of my 164 steel. It had reasonable handling.)

Hary Gahtoe

Hary Gahtoe