May need camshaft adjuster replacement
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May need camshaft adjuster replacement
Hello, I have camshaft positioning problem P002177. Check engine light is not on. It shows it only when I run Xentry and my other professional scanner.
I get rattle noise when starting car, but VERY RARE. Maybe 5% of the time.
How much time do you think I have left do replace camshaft adjuster?
I saw this video. Its in foreign language, but I think I got most of it figured out. Pretty much of someone holds crank bolt in place, the camshaft adjuster bolt can be removed without messing with valve covers.
I assume vehicle can be driven at least until actually check engine light comes up.
I've seen fcp euro sells those adjusters for about $400 each. Any other good place to buy them?
If and when I will do it, I'll definitely make a very DIY friendly youtube video.
I get rattle noise when starting car, but VERY RARE. Maybe 5% of the time.
How much time do you think I have left do replace camshaft adjuster?
I saw this video. Its in foreign language, but I think I got most of it figured out. Pretty much of someone holds crank bolt in place, the camshaft adjuster bolt can be removed without messing with valve covers.
I assume vehicle can be driven at least until actually check engine light comes up.
I've seen fcp euro sells those adjusters for about $400 each. Any other good place to buy them?
If and when I will do it, I'll definitely make a very DIY friendly youtube video.
Last edited by pahanorlando; Jan 3, 2025 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Fixed link
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W212 MY'14 M276-3.5NA @75kMi
loose VVT or Tensioners... poor oiling
It's not only Intake VVT gear that can rattle. Chain tensioners do it as well.
You can easily test without removing anything by rotating crankshaft main pulley while listening for a snap or reading live CPS position.
If camshaft position is proven not skipping forward then you're good to change only the 2x cheap chain tensionsers.
Use better oiling to help camshafts wear, HPFP, CPS and tensioners.
You can easily test without removing anything by rotating crankshaft main pulley while listening for a snap or reading live CPS position.
If camshaft position is proven not skipping forward then you're good to change only the 2x cheap chain tensionsers.
Use better oiling to help camshafts wear, HPFP, CPS and tensioners.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; Jan 3, 2025 at 07:20 PM.
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2013 ML550 US spec. Air+Offroad pkg
My M278 (2013 V8 biturbo) engine appears to have similar issue. Occasional longer cranking to start (3 or 4 seconds vs 1 second), and the occasional chain rattle. Sounds like passenger/right side (US spec) is the problem child (thats where the occasional chain rattle is coming from). Would love to see a DIY on replacement other than ones Ive found. However, I wonder if just changing out the one bad cam adjuster is sufficient, or if that is going bad, is it time to change all of the adjuster (4), tensioners (2), chain guides, and timing chains (3 I think) as well? I have similar questions: 1) is this a repair that can wait until it throws a light, or should it be rectified soon? 2) What is considered "good" oil to reduce wear? Ive always used Mobile1, but local german car shop told me Motul is much better, and I should stop using Mobile1. If the major maintenance is recommended (chains and all associated parts), thats gonna be a big bill. Advice/experience welcome!
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W212 MY'14 M276-3.5NA @75kMi
My M278 (2013 V8 biturbo) engine appears to have similar issue. Occasional longer cranking to start (3 or 4 seconds vs 1 second), and the occasional chain rattle. Sounds like passenger/right side (US spec) is the problem child (thats where the occasional chain rattle is coming from). Would love to see a DIY on replacement other than ones Ive found. However, I wonder if just changing out the one bad cam adjuster is sufficient, or if that is going bad, is it time to change all of the adjuster (4), tensioners (2), chain guides, and timing chains (3 I think) as well? I have similar questions: 1) is this a repair that can wait until it throws a light, or should it be rectified soon?
2) What is considered "good" oil to reduce wear? Ive always used Mobile1, but local german car shop told me Motul is much better, and I should stop using Mobile1. If the major maintenance is recommended (chains and all associated parts), thats gonna be a big bill. Advice/experience welcome!
2) What is considered "good" oil to reduce wear? Ive always used Mobile1, but local german car shop told me Motul is much better, and I should stop using Mobile1. If the major maintenance is recommended (chains and all associated parts), thats gonna be a big bill. Advice/experience welcome!
MOTUL is a great upgrade because it holds its viscosity longer before derating into W30.
The VVT's single lock pin wears due to low pressure forcing zillions of lock/unlock operation... worn pins are unable to lock and cause rattle.
> Short Term :
-- use better oiling conditions, experiment "oil pump solenoid" disconnect - See W212AMG thread
-- Long crank is caused by poor camshaft positioning: VVT locks, Leaky CPS, Limp chain Tensioners all of which are affected by poor oiling conditions.
> Long Term :
-- we will all need priceless VVT Gears replaced or rebuilt.
-- If we manage conditions to push repair time frame well, we can ignore that!
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; Jan 4, 2025 at 03:18 PM.
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2017 GLE350 4MATIC
Hello, I have camshaft positioning problem P002177. Check engine light is not on. It shows it only when I run Xentry and my other professional scanner.
I get rattle noise when starting car, but VERY RARE. Maybe 5% of the time.
How much time do you think I have left do replace camshaft adjuster?
Video
I saw this video. Its in foreign language, but I think I got most of it figured out. Pretty much of someone holds crank bolt in place, the camshaft adjuster bolt can be removed without messing with valve covers.
I assume vehicle can be driven at least until actually check engine light comes up.
I've seen fcp euro sells those adjusters for about $400 each. Any other good place to buy them?
If and when I will do it, I'll definitely make a very DIY friendly youtube video.
I get rattle noise when starting car, but VERY RARE. Maybe 5% of the time.
How much time do you think I have left do replace camshaft adjuster?
Video
I saw this video. Its in foreign language, but I think I got most of it figured out. Pretty much of someone holds crank bolt in place, the camshaft adjuster bolt can be removed without messing with valve covers.
I assume vehicle can be driven at least until actually check engine light comes up.
I've seen fcp euro sells those adjusters for about $400 each. Any other good place to buy them?
If and when I will do it, I'll definitely make a very DIY friendly youtube video.
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Thanks a lot for all the responses.
VIN: 4JGDA5JB6EA417762
I assumed P002177 specifically points to bank 2 intake adjuster, but good to know that it could be chain tensioner.
VIN: 4JGDA5JB6EA417762
I assumed P002177 specifically points to bank 2 intake adjuster, but good to know that it could be chain tensioner.
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W212 MY'14 M276-3.5NA @75kMi
heads or tails
Thanks a lot for all the responses.
VIN: 4JGDA5JB6EA417762
I assumed P002177 specifically points to bank 2 intake adjuster, but good to know that it could be chain tensioner.
VIN: 4JGDA5JB6EA417762
I assumed P002177 specifically points to bank 2 intake adjuster, but good to know that it could be chain tensioner.
Let's not get a $10,000. complete repair job blindly until necessary.
Quick troubleshooting will help pin point your issue:
> Do you get STARTUP RATTLING noise??
-- If No rattle then Intake VVT Gear still ok.
-- Perhaps $50 Cam sensors: Inspect them.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; Jan 6, 2025 at 02:45 PM.
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One thing is causing that...
Let's not get a $10,000. complete repair job blindly until necessary.
Quick troubleshooting will help pin point your issue:
> Do you get STARTUP RATTLING noise??
-- If No rattle then Intake VVT Gear still ok.
-- Perhaps $50 Cam sensors: Inspect them.
Let's not get a $10,000. complete repair job blindly until necessary.
Quick troubleshooting will help pin point your issue:
> Do you get STARTUP RATTLING noise??
-- If No rattle then Intake VVT Gear still ok.
-- Perhaps $50 Cam sensors: Inspect them.
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Adjusters cause noises on M278 but they kind of all have done this since they were like new so we tend not to take it too seriously. I would look at the sensor considering how inexpensive it is before completely retiming the engine here.. yes itll fix the rattle, the rattle and the "deviation" are not always one and the same problem. This is coming from someone who was told to do multiple timing jobs on these things in the past and yeah it was the sensor 50% of the time.
You have to read livedata, but I would just honestly replace them as a part of maintenance. What mileage are you at? Can you show me the timing cover area of the engine to see if anything is oil-soaked?
You have to read livedata, but I would just honestly replace them as a part of maintenance. What mileage are you at? Can you show me the timing cover area of the engine to see if anything is oil-soaked?
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2013 ML550 US spec. Air+Offroad pkg
Pull off the cam position sensor elec connectors to see if oil soaked (on top front of heads, 2 per bank on the V8). If they are, they need to be replaced anyway due to the known problem of the sensors leaking oil into the wiring harness via the plug pins and via capillary action on the stranded wires makes its way down to O2 sensors and other sensors eventually taking out the ECU. Separate thread on all of that
"A warning to all M278/M176 owners..."
. Apparently that is a major fix of $10k+ (new wire harness). To remove the plugs on cam position sensors, pull out the retaining lever, press it in toward the plug body to release the lock, and pull apart. A set of 4 Genuine Mercedes sensors is under $200 on AutohauzAZ...I just got a set myself.Last edited by Leetom; Jan 7, 2025 at 08:19 AM.
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Thanks, I'll look into it. Forgot to say, its 2014 ML350 with 131000 miles.
I thought about reading livedata too, but I guess since it happens less than 5% at this time, it might be tough to see anything in scanner live.
I thought about reading livedata too, but I guess since it happens less than 5% at this time, it might be tough to see anything in scanner live.
Last edited by pahanorlando; Jan 7, 2025 at 01:17 PM.
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W212 MY'14 M276-3.5NA @75kMi
NOT MYSTERIOUS UNKNOWN.....
> there is only one thing that does both rattle + causes fault: It is an unlocked VVT Gear.
> Oily CPS only triggers code but can not rattle!
> The proven wisdom is not to delay repairs because next notch includes the whole set of camshaft/reluctor.
> To PREVENT wearing out VVT Lock pins:
do not drive around on low oil pressure that locks/unlocks VVT endlessly.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; Jan 7, 2025 at 05:17 PM.
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2013 ML550 US spec. Air+Offroad pkg
> To PREVENT wearing out VVT Lock pins:
do not drive around on low oil pressure that locks/unlocks VVT endlessly.
(80k mile ML550 W278) How do you ensure no low oil pressure beyond regular oil changes with quality oil? Ive always used Moble 1, changes right on schedule, filter replacement done half way between each oil change as additional precaution, but I think I have a VVT adjuster going bad (and my CPS sensors leaking...replacing those next week). I was advised to change to Motul oil, but if damage has been done, there is no reversing it at this point.
Additional question. Im changing filter every 5k miles (precaution) and oil at 10k intervals according to manual. Dealer told me when I purchased it new, that since it took a hefty 9 qts, 10k oil changes were frequent enough. Should the oil changes have really been done more frequently? Too late now and more frequent changes not really gonna help me? I love this car after 13 years of ownership, but dont want it to become a money pit.
do not drive around on low oil pressure that locks/unlocks VVT endlessly.
(80k mile ML550 W278) How do you ensure no low oil pressure beyond regular oil changes with quality oil? Ive always used Moble 1, changes right on schedule, filter replacement done half way between each oil change as additional precaution, but I think I have a VVT adjuster going bad (and my CPS sensors leaking...replacing those next week). I was advised to change to Motul oil, but if damage has been done, there is no reversing it at this point.
Additional question. Im changing filter every 5k miles (precaution) and oil at 10k intervals according to manual. Dealer told me when I purchased it new, that since it took a hefty 9 qts, 10k oil changes were frequent enough. Should the oil changes have really been done more frequently? Too late now and more frequent changes not really gonna help me? I love this car after 13 years of ownership, but dont want it to become a money pit.
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W212 MY'14 M276-3.5NA @75kMi
BETTER OILING IS EASY
> To PREVENT wearing out VVT Lock pins:
do not drive around on low oil pressure that locks/unlocks VVT endlessly.
(80k mile ML550 W278) How do you ensure no low oil pressure beyond regular oil changes with quality oil? Ive always used Moble 1, changes right on schedule, filter replacement done half way between each oil change as additional precaution, but I think I have a VVT adjuster going bad (and my CPS sensors leaking...replacing those next week). I was advised to change to Motul oil, but if damage has been done, there is no reversing it at this point.
Additional question. Im changing filter every 5k miles (precaution) and oil at 10k intervals according to manual. Dealer told me when I purchased it new, that since it took a hefty 9 qts, 10k oil changes were frequent enough. Should the oil changes have really been done more frequently? Too late now and more frequent changes not really gonna help me? I love this car after 13 years of ownership, but dont want it to become a money pit.
do not drive around on low oil pressure that locks/unlocks VVT endlessly.
(80k mile ML550 W278) How do you ensure no low oil pressure beyond regular oil changes with quality oil? Ive always used Moble 1, changes right on schedule, filter replacement done half way between each oil change as additional precaution, but I think I have a VVT adjuster going bad (and my CPS sensors leaking...replacing those next week). I was advised to change to Motul oil, but if damage has been done, there is no reversing it at this point.
Additional question. Im changing filter every 5k miles (precaution) and oil at 10k intervals according to manual. Dealer told me when I purchased it new, that since it took a hefty 9 qts, 10k oil changes were frequent enough. Should the oil changes have really been done more frequently? Too late now and more frequent changes not really gonna help me? I love this car after 13 years of ownership, but dont want it to become a money pit.
Even the unlocked VVT issue may be cancelled while running effective oil pressure.
Of course good engine parts help normal performance, particularly true for the weak chain tensioners.
Without too many changes you can upgrade your engine to an "MB Approved" MOTUL 5W40 or equivalent replaced between 3 to 5kMi.
When oil ages it shears viscosity polymers to become lower grade... it's up to you to renew oil for protective qualities you need.
In addition Mercedes use a solenoid to lower oil pressure under 3500.Rpm - This topic is debated here...
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; Jan 8, 2025 at 05:51 PM.
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2013 ML550 US spec. Air+Offroad pkg
VVT Camshaft Adjuster Brand?
What is the OEM for the Camshaft Adjusters? Genuine MB is like $800 each, Febi-Bilstein is like $400/ea., Vaico is $600. Any experience good or bad with alternative brands? Couldnt tell on FCP what OEM was.
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OEM is whatever private label machining company makes Mercedes engine parts for those specifically. Febi-Bilstein makes good parts, Vaico too. Both of those are very much aftermarket but like 1/3 of my cars are Febi Bilstein at this point. I'd probably be ok with the Febi ones TBH. I use a TON of their stuff professionally
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Op, you have not mentioned whether you have ever replaced the chain tensioners or installed the check valves. Do you have the old style timing chain? Regardless this doesn’t mean you have the new tensioners or the check valves. My 2013 M157 did not have Either check valve, and need updated tensioners.
regardless, since it’s been running with low oiling, that is the likely reason the adjusters (if that’s the real issue) have worn, but have made it to a decent mileage.
lastly, there is evidence of the tone rings on the camshaft’s spinning out of position, causing a camshaft adjustment issue so you will want to look into checking your timing by looking through the camshaft sensor ports.
you can do the mods as Cali suggests to get some better oiling pressure now and see if anything changes with your camshaft adjustment angles. Rattle may or may not be resolved dependent on you answer to the first questions.
regardless, since it’s been running with low oiling, that is the likely reason the adjusters (if that’s the real issue) have worn, but have made it to a decent mileage.
lastly, there is evidence of the tone rings on the camshaft’s spinning out of position, causing a camshaft adjustment issue so you will want to look into checking your timing by looking through the camshaft sensor ports.
you can do the mods as Cali suggests to get some better oiling pressure now and see if anything changes with your camshaft adjustment angles. Rattle may or may not be resolved dependent on you answer to the first questions.
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Sorry, been awhile since I was here and really did not have time to look at timing covers etc. I'll try really hard to do it this week.
I was working on other stuff on ML350. This week was first of me actually using the car to go to places (before it was post purchase fixing stuff up and do short test driving).
Still, in probably a month or so, I did not hear engine rattle on startup at all, so hopefully issue is not adjusters.
By looking at timing covers, they look really dry, but I know the oil pan is pretty wet with oil. That's another issue I'll have to deal with eventually.
But I'll try to take a short video of timing covers and cam sensors connectors hopefully this week.
P.S. To answer last question. I did not change any of that as I just bought the vehicle 2 months ago with 131k miles on it.
I was working on other stuff on ML350. This week was first of me actually using the car to go to places (before it was post purchase fixing stuff up and do short test driving).
Still, in probably a month or so, I did not hear engine rattle on startup at all, so hopefully issue is not adjusters.
By looking at timing covers, they look really dry, but I know the oil pan is pretty wet with oil. That's another issue I'll have to deal with eventually.
But I'll try to take a short video of timing covers and cam sensors connectors hopefully this week.
P.S. To answer last question. I did not change any of that as I just bought the vehicle 2 months ago with 131k miles on it.
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Sorry, been awhile since I was here and really did not have time to look at timing covers etc. I'll try really hard to do it this week.
I was working on other stuff on ML350. This week was first of me actually using the car to go to places (before it was post purchase fixing stuff up and do short test driving).
Still, in probably a month or so, I did not hear engine rattle on startup at all, so hopefully issue is not adjusters.
By looking at timing covers, they look really dry, but I know the oil pan is pretty wet with oil. That's another issue I'll have to deal with eventually.
But I'll try to take a short video of timing covers and cam sensors connectors hopefully this week.
P.S. To answer last question. I did not change any of that as I just bought the vehicle 2 months ago with 131k miles on it.
I was working on other stuff on ML350. This week was first of me actually using the car to go to places (before it was post purchase fixing stuff up and do short test driving).
Still, in probably a month or so, I did not hear engine rattle on startup at all, so hopefully issue is not adjusters.
By looking at timing covers, they look really dry, but I know the oil pan is pretty wet with oil. That's another issue I'll have to deal with eventually.
But I'll try to take a short video of timing covers and cam sensors connectors hopefully this week.
P.S. To answer last question. I did not change any of that as I just bought the vehicle 2 months ago with 131k miles on it.
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There's a little hidden fact lost on some of us: old thin oil viscosity can cause rattle on a good engine.
Old oil drains down quickly from the upper engine VVT gears + tensioners.
So when the engine starts up, the camshafts timings remain poor until oil pressure builds up 10 seconds later.
This is witnessed by how long it takes the ECU to ramp down Rpm to idle as soon as camshafts get under control.
Old oil drains down quickly from the upper engine VVT gears + tensioners.
So when the engine starts up, the camshafts timings remain poor until oil pressure builds up 10 seconds later.
This is witnessed by how long it takes the ECU to ramp down Rpm to idle as soon as camshafts get under control.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; Feb 13, 2025 at 05:37 AM.
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I can make video starting it up, but the rattle is only less than 3% of time. So chances to get it recorded are slim to none.
Just checked 3 out of 4 of those magnetic sensor connectors. They all seem to be dry. Couldn't get to the last one as it was blocked by air filter housing. I'll have to google on how to remove the housing lol
I did notice the hose that is connected to throttle body (the clamp) was loose, which probably solves my issue of rough idle. Hopefully I can use regular traditional clamps instead of those
Attached is video I took of 3 out of 4 connectors.
Just checked 3 out of 4 of those magnetic sensor connectors. They all seem to be dry. Couldn't get to the last one as it was blocked by air filter housing. I'll have to google on how to remove the housing lol
I did notice the hose that is connected to throttle body (the clamp) was loose, which probably solves my issue of rough idle. Hopefully I can use regular traditional clamps instead of those
Attached is video I took of 3 out of 4 connectors.
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If the rattle at cold start is not consistent, the more likely is the chain tensioners than adjusters.
The adjusters can be checked manually by rotating the engine and listening for the "click".
You can try that test with timing covers on, the " click" should be obvious enough.
The adjusters can be checked manually by rotating the engine and listening for the "click".
You can try that test with timing covers on, the " click" should be obvious enough.
Last edited by JCM_MB; Feb 16, 2025 at 09:55 AM.
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Cam position sensors are on top
Check the cam position sensors which are on the top of cam covers (2 per bank, 4 total), not the VVT magnets shown in your video. The Position sensors are much more common to leak inside electrical connector than the magnets.
