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M275 V12 Bi-Turbo Platform Technical discussion relating to models sharing the M275 V12 Bi-Turbo (V12 TT). Including SL600, SL65 AMG, CL600, CL65 AMG, S600, S65 AMG.
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Cooling down the V12TT

 
Old 12-06-2012, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by greekviking View Post
Did you notice better performance with the pump always on?

Surprisingly no real gains with that mod alone.

But then when you look at where the heat exchanger sits (tightly sandwiched between the radiator and the A/C condensor), you realize quickly more constant flow of super hot water doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

This is what prompted me to add a front mounted heat exchanger. THEN, the more constant running pump made a huge difference.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:59 AM
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Since these are oil cooled turbos, did anyone upgrade or add another oil H/E or upgrade the thermostat?
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:35 AM
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The turbos obviously have an oil feed, but they're definitely water-cooled as well(fortunately).

See the training presentation in this thread, plus lots of engine-out pictures elsewhere on MBW.

https://mbworld.org/forums/m275-v12-...75-freaks.html

The S600 already has a separate engine oil cooler in front of the HE.

Nick

https://mbworld.org/forums/m275-v12-...ion-pumps.html

Last edited by Welwynnick; 03-24-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:07 AM
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The airbox sensors can just sit there - they are used for measuring atmospheric pressure differential between the two air boxes in case one is plugged up. With the scorpions, you won't need them to be plumbed into the intake.

Not sure it makes sense to only upgrade to the scorpion intakes alone - just spend the bit of extra cash and get the intercooler package. I just got that going in my 08 CL65 and holy **** it has serious ***** now with the Speedriven 91 octane tune. I didn't do the 100 octane tune, it's good for another 20HP from what Marcin says, but the car will really back off when running 91.

Originally Posted by KazukiZhou View Post
With the speedriven scorpion air intake does it have a mounting point for the factory sensors that are in the air intake box? also is that a real major performance gain? I know by reading this thread that it will not have a dramatic affect on IAT, but instead just increase the flow of air that the factory box restricts... or am I wrong? Would the power be in the low rpm or more in the higher rpm? Finally, holding boost in the higher RPMs would have more to do with having a larger heat exchanger to cool the oil temps then anything else, would a replacement or a addition of a secondary be the best choice? If so, I know eurocharged replaces, who would offer a second addition or would I have to fab one up?

Sorry, I had my CL for a while but besides a exhaust and tune I really have not considered more mods, until recently I just had a random interest to improve the car some more.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:10 AM
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Go for the intercooler kit, you will be happy. They show polished mine - looks neat, will post pics tomorrow.
Originally Posted by NEMES1S View Post
I got it from them. Actually I got Ecu tcu HE and I takes all at the same time. It is a decent product but I did all my own work and none of it came with instructions and getting ahold of them wasn't easy. I ended up doin the whole project blind as thy never ended up gettin me install info but it wasn't terribly difficult. I would give them a 100% feedback if they hired someone just for tech support and responding to emails because a little help bleeding the intercooler circuit would have saved me about 200 from the dealership. I will contact them if I get the budget for the inter cooler upgrades as they are a good group of guys and I like the work they do to research for our cars and hopefully it's a bit smoother after it gets in.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:13 AM
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I'm told the pump can stop if there is enough air in the lines as a safety. Also, put water wetter in the circuit to keep things cooler.
Originally Posted by WHTEVO View Post
/\ Thanks for the info. I must have air in the system still. Because after a spirited drive, or even a couple highway pulls, the intercoolers are so hot i can't even put my hand on them. I keep meaning to bring my IR heat gun with me when i do drive the car to see what them temps are getting to but keep forgetting to grab it. When yours would boil, would water drip or come out of the little open nipple on the back of the water neck where the coolant cap (intercooler system cap) is?

Aaron
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CL55_Serge View Post
Not sure it makes sense to only upgrade to the scorpion intakes alone - just spend the bit of extra cash and get the intercooler package. I just got that going in my 08 CL65 and holy **** it has serious ***** now with the Speedriven 91 octane tune. I didn't do the 100 octane tune, it's good for another 20HP from what Marcin says, but the car will really back off when running 91.
I doubt if anyone will have measured the effect on power of using the Scorpion intakes on their own, I think in practice they only get used together with the large charge coolers, because the stock filters won't fit any more.

My bet is the Scorpion intakes on their own actually reduce engine power, due to ingesting air that's been through the radiators. That's a lot warmer than ambient air, and I bet it costs power.

I don't think air filters make much difference with turbo-charged engines - the wastegates are controlled by the manifold pressure.

Nick
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:10 PM
  #83  
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04 E500 20in brabus monoblocks 1 serious 500E & 91 300CE 2JZ 2005 CL65
I have a 2 questions... Can the heat exchangers separate from the engine cooling parts??? I mean the fluid that goes thru engine and radi just do that and Can you do a trunk tank, secondary H/E and meziere pump just for cooling for performance??? Sorry if this is a dumb question. Im new to V12TT world. I have a 2005 CL65. OR is it separated already????

2nd question... If i get a trunk tank, Secondary Heat exchanger and meziere pump How would i install them. I mean do i put pump in stock location? Or do i need a second pump because Tank is in the trunk?

Last edited by jason3977; 06-10-2013 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:45 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by jason3977 View Post
I have a 2 questions... Can the heat exchangers separate from the engine cooling parts??? I mean the fluid that goes thru engine and radi just do that and Can you do a trunk tank, secondary H/E and meziere pump just for cooling for performance??? Sorry if this is a dumb question. Im new to V12TT world. I have a 2005 CL65. OR is it separated already????

2nd question... If i get a trunk tank, Secondary Heat exchanger and meziere pump How would i install them. I mean do i put pump in stock location? Or do i need a second pump because Tank is in the trunk?

the turbo cooling system is (not) connected to the radiator or engine coolant system.. the turbo system has it own contained cooling system, on my cl65 i installed a meziere electric pump and i added a extra upgraded heat exchanger with water wetter coolant. one thing i always wanted to do is figure out a clever and simple way to use my washer fluid reservoir tank in the engne bay and convert that to a (remote reservoir) for the turbo system, i never use the washer fluid reservoir so might as well put it in to good use, if you need a catless downpipe system for the w215 cl65 let me know i can get you 15-20 % off it is a fully bolt-on stainless steel system
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Old 06-10-2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by freestylebiker3 View Post
the turbo cooling system is (not) connected to the radiator or engine coolant system.. the turbo system has it own contained cooling system, on my cl65 i installed a meziere electric pump and i added a extra upgraded heat exchanger with water wetter coolant. one thing i always wanted to do is figure out a clever and simple way to use my washer fluid reservoir tank in the engne bay and convert that to a (remote reservoir) for the turbo system, i never use the washer fluid reservoir so might as well put it in to good use, if you need a catless downpipe system for the w215 cl65 let me know i can get you 15-20 % off it is a fully bolt-on stainless steel system
I was thinking the something with washer res!!! But then i thought the engine bay would warm it more than if it was in the trunk!!! I just ordered a heat exchanger today and will order meziere pump tomorrow.
How do you integrate the heat exchanger? Meaning does it go after stock H/E or before??? What did you do with stock oil cooler??? If you can give me a call I'm pm-ing you my number!
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Old 07-27-2013, 02:32 PM
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SL65, 427 COBRA (CSX-3127)73 911S, 246GTS (DINO SPYDER), CORNICHE,1962 PORSCHE TWIN GRILLE ROADSTER+
SL65 with the CL600 Condenser and a Meziere Pump works well.

I have an 06 SL65 (R230) and I first installed the Renntech designed front condenser system.

Four years ago I went to buy the system from Renntech at $4,200 and I noticed an MB sticker with a part number on their condenser. I thought I should check the MB part number before dropping $4,200 (uninstalled) on a small box of parts and I discovered that they were just using a standard MB heater core found in numerous MBs. Their system had that condenser with a few custom brackets and small rubber hoses. I ordered the condenser from my local MB Dealer for $168 and ordered the brackets and hoses from Renntech @ $200 thus saving almost $3,900 for the exact same parts (sorry Renntech). The MB/Renntech condenser is about 4 inches tall 22 inches long and 2 inches deep.

When I removed the front bumper I was surprised to see that on my SL65 from the factory was the exact same condenser and that Renntech was just adding a second condenser. That system worked better then stock but still heat soaked quickly. I already had the late upgraded Bosh 010 pump so I kept that.

About a year ago I installed the larger S66/CL600 front condenser (pictured #22 on "understanding intercooling" herein) that fits very tightly but required almost no mods, along with a BMW Meziere pump from Speedriven that they modify for the application. The system is extremely hard to bleed and takes hours of squeezing the hoses and letting the pump run but once bled does make a huge difference over the previous system. It still heat soaks but takes much longer and recovers much faster.

What I find is that while initially bleeding the system with a pressurized system I built using clear plastic tubing I did notice that very tiny micro bubbles persisted. Since the IC system is totally independent I also modified an extra Pump relay to have the Pump run non stop for bleeding the IC system with the engine off. I have a feeling that either there are micro bubble attached inside that dislodge in the system OR more likely the impeller in the Meziere pump is cavitating and causing the micro bubbles. About every three months I have to re-bleed the system and do find large air bubbles that escape and allow 12-16 OZ/300-500 ML more water into the system... I also still see those very tiny micro bubbles floating in the system even after hours of the pump running both with the water hot and ice cold.
Attached Thumbnails Cooling down the V12TT-s600chargecoolerdrwg_zps6aa5f6e0.gif  

Last edited by EXECMALIBU; 07-28-2013 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:55 AM
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Very interesting post, but I'm confused about a few things. Have you got any pictures?

Cheers, Nick
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:26 AM
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Sorry no photos taken at the time...

Nick,

Sorry I did not think about taking photos. I added the diagram with dimensions of the S600/CL600 condenser I used in my post. The condenser is very thin but has a much larger surface area probably 4 times that of the Renntech Condenser.

The good news is that they cost only about $180 at the MB dealer as I recall?

I placed it in front of the stack of factory radiators/condensers and kept the original SL65 small IC condenser in place. I remember I only had to grind maybe 1/4 inch off each bracket to make it fit.

I think that if I could find a place to hide a small 1-2 liter water tank with a purge valve somewhere in the front that might just be enough extra coolant to keep it from ever getting too hot and make for easy bleeding ...
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:14 PM
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Posting so I have this for record.
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:29 PM
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Old thread but a lot of informed people so I would like to take advantage.

Will a port and polish of the turbo and manifolds with ceramic coating to the manifolds along with larger billet turbos make the car run cooler or will the additional power counter act that and increase temps.

Well informed guessing would be appreciated.

This is on a 2010 SL600
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Old 12-01-2016, 04:13 AM
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Could anyone be so kind and give me any advice on additional cooling for a 2011 S65 (W221). I want to go with a Renntech tune and can't decide whether I should provide additional cooling or not.
I want to upgrade the stock pump with the SLS pump which has proven to be reliable and much stronger plus I like using original Mercedes parts. As for a secondary heat exchanger, just add another Mercedes one or go with something bigger/more efficient? Any suggestions on what will fit without the need of modifying the front bumper?

Will it make a big difference in cooling so that it is worth the effort?
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Old 12-01-2016, 03:00 PM
  #92  
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Did you read the sticky?


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Old 12-01-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Welwynnick View Post
Did you read the sticky?


Nick
Hi, I actually did and it was very informativ but I did not find an answer to my question. There are a lot of suggestions for the S600 heat exchanger but I did not find a post from someone who added a secondary heat exchanger to his s65. Could you maybe point me towards the page I should read again?
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by black-series View Post
Hi, I actually did and it was very informativ but I did not find an answer to my question. There are a lot of suggestions for the S600 heat exchanger but I did not find a post from someone who added a secondary heat exchanger to his s65. Could you maybe point me towards the page I should read again?
I expect you could sandwich another stock HE in there. Or with a little work replace it with a bmw x3 radiator as Nick and I have done. As far as the pump, it's all about what you wanna spend and how much custom fitment you want to do. The EMP pump is no contest the most powerful and there is a seller on ebay who has been accepting $250 offers on them (around half price)...but it's probably overkill without running it on a controller.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ZephTheChef View Post
I expect you could sandwich another stock HE in there. Or with a little work replace it with a bmw x3 radiator as Nick and I have done. As far as the pump, it's all about what you wanna spend and how much custom fitment you want to do. The EMP pump is no contest the most powerful and there is a seller on ebay who has been accepting $250 offers on them (around half price)...but it's probably overkill without running it on a controller.
Thank you very much for your reply. My highest priority is to use parts that do not require a lot of cutting or modifying on the car itself, I want to keep it as stock as possible. As far as I understand, the Renntech tune I am going to get will already improve the behavior of the pump because they change the pump control as well. So my plan was to change the stock bosch pump to CWA 100.2 (SLS). Would adding another stock cooler to the sandwich and using the EMP pump be a big thermal improvement?
What do you think of heat shielding the coolant lines with reflective foil, in particular along the hot turbos? I could imagine that it helps a lot.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by black-series View Post
Thank you very much for your reply. My highest priority is to use parts that do not require a lot of cutting or modifying on the car itself, I want to keep it as stock as possible. As far as I understand, the Renntech tune I am going to get will already improve the behavior of the pump because they change the pump control as well. So my plan was to change the stock bosch pump to CWA 100.2 (SLS). Would adding another stock cooler to the sandwich and using the EMP pump be a big thermal improvement?
What do you think of heat shielding the coolant lines with reflective foil, in particular along the hot turbos? I could imagine that it helps a lot.
I think the CWA-100 is a pretty good pump itself from the flow chart...I defer to Nick on that. Anything you can do to insulate the lines underneath is probably helpful. I don't have nearly the experience or testing with the system that he does and I never really got my upgraded setup tested while the weather was still nice because I was having some other issues with the car. As far as the heat exchanger, you really can't go wrong just running as much heat exchanger as you have space for. The x3 radiator would possibly go in with no cutting on the car if you make custom end tanks...requires minor clearancing as-is. It is definitely the biggest core you could reasonably fit. I would think two stock cores in series would be much easier to squeeze in there and probably provide similar cooling.
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Old 12-03-2016, 04:59 AM
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I insulated my pipes, and that's one of the things (like insulating the IC's, and uprating the steering rack bushes) that I wish I hadn't bothered with.


I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else. They're a pig to get back in again, and I didn't see any benefit.


Cooling down the V12TT-imag1087_zpsd82f2f05.jpg


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Old 12-03-2016, 05:11 AM
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I don't think the X3 radiator would necessarily fit.

http://webshop.nissens.com/Product

The W215/W220 radiator core measures 641 x 469 x 40 mm
The W216/W221 radiator core measures 640 x 459 x 40 mm

I only know that the X3 radiator fits (with some difficulty) because I measured up my own car, and I used trial and error.

Given that the later models have a shorter engine radiator, that suggests to me that the X3 rad would be too tall.

A BMW 3-series or Land Rover Discovery radiator would probably be a better fit.

Nick

Last edited by Welwynnick; 12-03-2016 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 12-03-2016, 03:20 PM
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Nick,

I am surprised that you didn't see any benefit from insulating the cool (passenger) side pipe. I thought that looked like a terrible place to run cold coolant since it is so close to the hot engine it is bolted to. Maybe with the flow fast enough from a bigger pump the coolant just isn't there long enough to heat up at all. I thought about doing that, but with the killer chiller setup my coolant doesn't go to the front at all, it just goes from the ic's to the killer chiller & pump mounted in the HVAC plenum, so those lines and my factory H/E are not in use.
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:13 AM
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Welwynnick, thank you for your input and experience, I also would have thought that heat shielding might help a lot, but now I will safe myself a lot of work and leave it as is. Probably I will go with Renntechs solution because this seems to be the only reasonable place for another heat exchanger. Adding a big heat exchanger to the main cooling sandwich seems impossible, the available space is so tight plus I would have to eliminate the ABC cooler as well. And I cannot imagine any air molecules voluntarily going through this wall of resistance and all the heat exchangers will reheat each other like crazy as well.

So yeah, I will go with the small one which luckily doesn't require a crazy amount of modifications on the car (like to keep it as stock a possible). Hopefully it will be enough to solve the cooling problem.

How can i reliably check whether all the air is gone after bleeding the system? If I cannot manage to bleed it without the recommended full vacuum pump, I will buy one. Just want to try it without first, although it seems to be impossible according to all the post.

Thank you all for your help and input!



This is where the Renntech heat exchanger is supposed to go (the upper one)
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