Ted Baldwin

..........Does anyone have independent dyno of the HPS Gen II s/c. How does it compare to Renntech, Kleemann etc?

Ted

AMG///Merc

Here I thought that you were from HPS, and that you had new information about the Gen II system! I've been seriously considering the new HPS system, but I'm waiting until we hear more about it, especially in regards to reliability. From what I gather, it should make excellent power, although to be honest, I'm not concerned about whether or not it matches Kleeman's supercharger output. I've gotten the impression that the current NA M113 will probably make 500hp +/- at the crank, and that's enough for me!! I figure that for half the price of the Kleeman system, and a warranty, I'm willing to give up a 30-50hp, and that is assuming that the HPS system makes "only" 500hp (Note that my 500hp guesstimate is strictly my own, and HPS may do better!). Considering that this is for a street car, 500hp is plenty in my opinion...

Add me to the list of those who are anxiously awaiting more info from HPS!! (Ahhem, cough, err.. Adam?)


Best regards,
Matt

Ted Baldwin

.........according to the company's information, it appears that the Gen II HPS makes more powr than Kleemann. Kleemann's products are generally reliable, but you do not have a warranty. Up until now the only down side to HPS has been that it makes less HP. Apparently this problem has now been solved with HPS Gen II s/c which has an intercooler. But I am interested in seeing dyno numbers from non-HPS affiliated individuals. If this turns out to be true, you can pick up a used w210 E55 or W208 CLK55 and with the HPS system being half the price of Kleemann's or Renntech, you can have yourself a supercar for about $40K, with a warranty. You can't beat that. But more info is needed. All you needed is a Kleemann LSD, HPS Gen II s/c with a warranty and a used W210 E55 or W208 CLK55.

.......Below is a link with info on the Gen II HPS dyno numbers, but the info is from HPS.

https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...t=91368&page=4

Ted

Fast55

Mech Tech isn't affiliated with HPS, only the installer. They're a custom shop that does buggys, race trucks, and lots of forced induction setups of their own design. The owner sounds like really sharp guy and is very hands on. I have no reason to question the 421 RWHP figure I was given, but I will have another dyno run done to see how consistent the numbers are. I thought the Kleeman claims were for 430 RWHP?

nukblazi

I should stay quiet, but some of us remember that we HPS first posted numbers, it was an MS Excel graph. Not very impressive. They also refused to give out RWHP numbers, only corrected and calculated crank numbers, again, shady. Maybe it has all changed, I dunno.

Now if Mech Tech has his own shop, is an installer, then he (they) are likely responsible for the intercooling, as the HPS guys are not that sharp, and last I heard (and spoke to Adam) were still insisting that and intercooler wasn't required and didn't produce more HP. SO, he very well may be affiliated, or partnered. You know. Hate to say it, but I'd don't trust them.

Fast55

Really? I had the first generation system on my E430, and no it didn't require an intercooler because it only had 5 PSI of boost. I got a before and after dyno of the car, including RWHP and calculated (corrected) crank numbers. At that boost, no intercooler is needed. Car ran fine with no overheating even in Vegas. The new system does use a intercooler because the boost is now around 7.5 PSI, more like the Kleeman or Renntech blowers. This isn't something Mech Tech added on, it's a completely new HPS design. The 430 had 10K blower miles when I sold it, but still running great (315 RWHP, 92 RWHP more than stock).

Ted Baldwin

.........I too remember when HPS first came out with their non-intercooled s/c. They did not represent themselves very well. They definitely now have a Gen II s/c with an intercooler and it is not something that the shop in question fabricated. It appears they have an improved system with a warranty. I didn't really care too much about warranty before, but now I do. If HPS have gotten their act together and have an intercooled s/c with HP gains similar to Kleemann, plus a 48,0000 mile warranty, plus being half the price, it will be the best of possible worlds. But I like you, am skeptical until I see more info.

Ted

Richard Galing

I'm scheduled to have my HPS Gen II E430 dyno'd at an independent shop this week, I'll post my results. Incidentally, my E430 dyno'd at 355rwhp the same day I picked it up at Mech Tech with 0 adaptive miles.

nukblazi

I'd have to say that you and I are on different pages. It isn't "how much" boost determines whether or not intercooling is needed. The simple physics are cooler air is denser, and the more dense the charge, the more powerful. Intercooling a 5psi system produces more HP than a non-intercooled 5psi system. This is why on the attached Dyno, the first run is the most powerful, then the subsequent run 2, has lower HP. We waited 20 min for run 3, higher then 2, but still not as high as run 1, then run 4 has the lowest HP. It is known as "heatsoak". And this was with a fan blowing air over my intercooler.

I hope they have it together now. Nothing wrong with competition. Though I do think it is a shame when knowledgeless people start selling a product undercutting the true tuner community, (Having a single product shouldn't qualify anyone as a tuner). Allow me to ask anyone this. Does HPS or the installer even have a Star Diagnostic Computer? If no, they shouldn't be tuning MBs IMHO. Anyone can make basic bolt ons for any car. An alloy pulley is an alloy pulley, so long as it is of excellent quality, Honda or Mercedes. Supercharging a motor is a whole other story. Detonation, knock sensors, running lean on the high end of the RPM band. Some of the early HPS Customer dyno charts were very bad, you could see were the motor was pulling the timing.

So, I guess what I am saying is this, don't believe any companies Marketing Material. There is plenty of information on the net, do your research, figure out what you want out of your car, then contact tuners to find your product. Never base such a big investment, with so much at risk on price and warranty, rather on reputation, experience, and workmanship.

Call me

This is a 100% stock 2002 C230 Sport Coupe. At the time I had around 25k on the odo.

Ted Baldwin

Never base such a big investment, with so much at risk on price and warranty, rather on reputation, experience, and workmanship.


Never base such a big investment, with so much at risk on price and warranty, rather on reputation, experience, and workmanship.

.........I agree with you that one should be careful.This is as you say is quite a big investment and a company that has such a big reputation, experience and workmanship should have no problem backing up their product with a warranty. Even Kia has a warranty. I think the lack of a warranty is short-sighted because, if these other companies had a warranty then scores of more customers will flock to them and we won't even be discusssibg HPS right now. I have many friends who I had convinced to get a s/c on their MB's, but after seeing my ordeal they became afraid and left their car stock. In a way I wonder if these other tuners own HPS(just kidding!), because they are giving HPS the opportunity to exist. At first, it was no big deal because HPS had an inferior product, but you can't continue to bank on the hope that HPS will remain inferior. Supercharging a car is not rocket science. There are lots of Mustangs and Fords running around wit s/c's. All HPS has to do now, is to exploit the weakness of some of the more esterblished tuners.......lack of warranty. I am sure HPS is grateful to them. Competition is good.

Ted

hellcat

Kleemann does have a warranty now. They started that early 2004 if I remember correctly.

Fast55

Well actually you're kind of right. Boost pressure alone doesn't determine the need for intercooling, the amount of temperature rise (delta T, or temperature difference) and the maximum incoming air charge temperature does. On my 430, there wasn't enough rise, and max remained low enough, that the intercooler wasn't needed on the street and would have resulted in very little gain. Now use the car on a track, under boost all the time, and the need would be obvious. Your dynos show very little difference in power, that's not heat soak. Look at three back to back runs on a W211 E55, then you'll see heat soak. They lose lots of power quickly, because the boost level is high and the heat buildup is bad. They do have all the equipment needed to tune a MB or anything else. Careful attention is given to the A/F ratio over the entire RPM range. Granted the company (HPS) could use a little polish, but I've talked with the engineer behind their system and gotten Mech Tech's opinion of their stuff, and while Mech Tech isn't a Mercedes only tuning shop, they have lots of forced induction experience. Warranty wise, no one but HPS warrants your entire drivetrain for any length of time. Personally, I think if money is no object, Renntech would be my choice considering the man behind AMG started the company, but they're in Florida and (un)justifiably expensive.

nukblazi

Ted, I know something happened to your car, but I don't know the details. I do know that anytime you modify any motor, you're taking a chance. I do agree with you on your statements. I suppose as Fast55 put it, the lack of polish, and demeaner of the HPS reps, and their arrogance at the time. As I said, I hope they've changed.

Fast55, again I agree with most of what you said. I know most people don't drive like me, but I am WOT to the speedlimit where possible, and I autocross, and I couldn't imagine that a non-intercooled system owner wouldn't be immediately frustrated at the track, and I don't know why if you do this kind of mod, an owner would only stay on the street.

I know my Dyno shows little difference compared to the E55. The SC configuration, i.e. location specifically, and even with the overboost pulley, my heatsoak is not bad, but power is lost in back to back runs, that's all was I trying to show. I do not understand how, rather why, an intercooler on your 430 would not have produced reasonable gains on the street. Even if the Delta T is nominal (compared to a C32 with the SC in the V), cooler air produces more power. I would like to see the raw data on four back to back dyno runs, just to see if there were losses and what they are on a non-intercooled system.

Warranty on the entire driveline is great. If they never need to replace anything, that's even better. My question would be if there was a catastrophic engine failure, would they pony up the $40k for a new AMG motor on a $5k SC system? Adam, although nice personally, came off as a swindler. He didn't (at the time) know what he was talking about, etc., and in a two hour conversation, spent more time bad mouthing other tuners than describing his own product.


Again, I shouldn't have said anything (too hot a topic), but thought it is worth raising the points, so if they've changed, others (you guys) could point it out.

Fast55

Not at all, I think it's a great topic, and something all of us considering upgrades should be able to discuss without getting all pi$$y which is what seemed to happen previously. Adam is a salesman, pure and simple. He's learning, but fortunately isn't going to be working on a customer car. He's also young, and polish takes time in the world of sales, especially when it comes to dealing with disgruntled customers or hostile competitors (it's going to happen). My 430 I'm sure, lost power running it hard in the heat of Vegas, but it wasn't really noticeable. All in all, I was satisfied with the car and it was pretty low cost, a trade off for the lower power VS the intercooled systems' high cost and complexity and higher power. As far as warranty, they don't underwrite the warranty, a separate company called Dell Financial (a conglomeration of Dell computer and CITI group) sells this to each customer. I don't have any experience with them, and I can imagine it wouldn't take too many 40K claims to end their relationship with HPS. I don't know of any warranty claims so far, and I hope I never have to test their integrity myself. As to the accuracy of the dyno run done at Mech Tech, I will have another run done elsewhere to compare. 421 RWHP is comparable to Kleeman I believe?

Ted Baldwin

Again, I shouldn't have said anything (too hot a topic), but thought it is worth raising the points, so if they've changed, others (you guys) could point it out.


...........I can understand why this topic might become heated sometimes, but I am unable to find a topic more worthy of discussion on an a car forum than this one. Understandably tuners do not want anything bad said about their product, because it might hurt sales. Consumers do not want to make the tuners unhappy by reporting their bad experiences and as a result, the conspiracy of silence makes would be buyers unaware of their choices. What then is the use of an enthusiasts' forum?

.......On another note if a company offers a warranty, but their product is inferior resulting multiple claims for which the company is unable to stay in business, then perharps everyone is better of by their absence.

Ted

Ted Baldwin

Kleemann does have a warranty now. They started that early 2004 if I remember correctly.


.........I was unable to find the warranty info on their website. Can you post the terms of the warranty?

Ted

Chappy

<snipped from Kleemann's website FAQ>

What kind of warranty is provided by KLEEMANN?

All KLEEMANN products are covered by a one year guarantee. Extension of the guarantee period will take place according to the law in the respective country where the product has been traded.

JamE55

What you waiting for Chappy? :p You know you want that kleemann juice under your hood! :p

Fast55

So the warranty is on their parts and labor, no part of your car is warranted. Is this still correct, or do they now also have a warranty on your drivetrain? Also James, do they publish RWHP or crank numbers?

JamE55

Not sure but i believe the warranty covers both parts, labor and the cars drivetrain. The rwhp/crank numbers they publish are on the website although those numbers are for euro. One of the members here a long time ago (think his name was Tim red clk55k) posted a dynograph that showed 430 something rwhp but can't recall all the details.

Fast55

WOW! They list W210 E55 at 560 crank HP!! That's probably 30-40 more than my first dyno. Man, your car must fly.

JamE55

lol Brad

That 560@crank i believe is only the s/c by itself. Now imagine the S8 kit and you'll be like... :p

Fast55

Dayum. I suppose you have the cams and everything????? Ever get a RWHP dyno out of it? That has got to haul serious ballzzzzzzzzzzzzz. My car seems as fast or faster than the '04 I test drove already.

JamE55

hellcat

This is second hand so I might not get this perfect, I'll report back when I know for sure. But what I remember my friend telling me is that they will offer a 1 year warranty on the blower as well as $30k(or something similar) towards the engine and drivetrain.