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I'm starting to shop around to replace my R-Class. Since it's about to turn 200K kms, and has had more than its share of issues when it was under warranty - I feel like I'm pushing my luck, even though I still really like driving this car.
I need towing ability (at least 3500 lbs). Also need light off-road capability since my cottage has dirt and grass/gravel roads. Most non-SUV's don't have OEM hitches available in Canada or the States - so have to go aftermarket. Stealth Hitches makes good quality hitches for a lot of vehicles that are tow rated in Europe. Looking for new or CPO, depending upon availability and final price. Must haves: AWD, seat 5 (7 is a nice to have, no longer a need to have). Seat 4 adults (and luggage) comfortably for a longer trip. Ideally low enough to fit into my garage with my roof box. This would be my daily driver too. I want a little luxury and good, up to date infotainment, as well as updated safety, self driving features. Eg: Adaptive Cruise with stop ad go, and lane keep. I drive in a lot of traffic at times - so this would be useful.
Here's my list:
Volvo V90 or V90 Cross Country. I really like the looks and they drive really well (amazing what they can do with 4 cylinders these days...) The downside is - the storage behind the second row is about 2/3 the R-class. Wasn't crazy about the touch screen interface either (although I suppose you would get used to it). Volvo is stopping the V90 imports and the V90 Cross Country will be special order only in 2020. So selection is already limited - but there are good deals out there since it didn't sell well. CPO's are available too.
E-class wagon: my sister has a 2011 and it's been a great car for her - very reliable too. This is one of my top choices but pretty pricey, so looking at 2018 CPO's. A hitch is a bit of a problem but Stealth has a hitch now - just not sure how Mercedes would treat a hitch from a warranty standpoint (since dealers have told me that towing is NOT recommended - even though it's perfectly capable and rated in Europe).
C-class wagon: No hitch available and Tow rating is low, even in Europe. Canada has a C43 variant of this wagon and apparently it's like a baby E63S.... If I didn't need towing - this would be one of my top choices.
Subaru Outback: we have a lot of Subaru's in my extended family - all with good experiences. The problem is, I just don't like the looks of the Outback. Things like the big unnecessarily chunky roof rack (which whistles at highway speeds) bother me. Biggest thing is I don't like CVT's so would not enjoy driving it. .
VW Alltrak: Too small.
I would love to look at the Buick TourX (based on the Opel) - but GM doesn't sell it in Canada).
SUV's:
VW Atlas: This thing is huge, so could give up the roof box thing. Doesn't have any self-levelling rear suspension option - and even unloaded it already has a bit of a saggy rear look to it. Not exciting to drive - but could carry and tow anything I needed (and I like that the hitch is standard).
Audi A4 Allroad: rear cargo too small. Rear seats are cramped.
Audi Q5 or SQ5: Rear seats are great but rear cargo too small. I test drove a 2018 CPO SQ5 and it was a blast to drive though.... Can tow 4500 lbs with Stealth hitch (which doesn't even require any body trimming). hmmmmm..... Did I mention the SQ5 is a blast to drive.....?
Audi Q7 - I like the looks of this car but I really want something that will be somewhat fun to drive (if it isn't - must have massive room). Would probably buy the Atlas if I wanted a mid-size SUV.
Acura RDX - This car was an absolute blast to drive and it has a surprising amount of storage (and a lot of underfloor storage in back too). But get this - you can get a hitch but the rating is only 1500 pounds - so have had to scratch it from the list
Acura MDX - dated interior. No panoramic roof, the infotainment is really old looking. Besides - I owned an original generation MDX. I liked it but don't want to go back to it.
Kia Telluride or Hyundai Palisade: These are very impressive. Problem: The higher trims have Captain's chair second row only. So your mid-size SUV is 4 passenger unless you fold up the 3rd row. I would want the higher trim level but with a bench second row.
My surprise top candidate right now is the BMW 640i GT. I didn't know much about this model until I started shopping - but the more I learn about it, the more I like it. This is a model that never sold well as it replaced the very odd looking 5 series GT which was a total flop. But the 6 series is nicer looking (and coming from an R-class, I'm used to odd looking cars that have a lot of capabilities). This 640i has the B58 engine and it's fantastic - no question, I would enjoy driving this. Xdrive and optional air suspension can raise the car and handle light off road. The interior is amazing and rear seats are bigger and roomier than even the R-class. Lastly - because of the hatch, it can actually hold a lot of cargo even with the rear seats up - and with the rear seats folded - has a bigger capacity than even the E-class wagon. Better yet, Stealth makes a hitch and the tow capacity is 4500 pounds. Coincidentally - BMW US just announced that they will stop importing this car for the 2020 model year as the buying public never got it (poor marketing, just like the R-Class). I'm looking at 2018 CPO's and they are being heavily discounted. This is my top choice right now...
I'm sure I've missed some obvious choices, but I'm in no rush since my car is running as well as it has ever run, knock on wood....
2015 Audi S4, 1982 Fiat Spyder, 2010 R350, 2013 E550 Cabriolet
I have also been considering the replacement though since I have a gas engine have not had that many problems. Unless something major happens, I'll keep it another few years to at least 200k miles.
In addition to all of the cars mentioned above take a look at the Buick Enclave. They are especially competitively priced a year or two old.
Why are the GLE and ML not on the list? Those get my votes. Great trailering and interior space. Plus the three-pointed star.
The W166 GLE and ML fit all of your requirements.
I considered the ML before I bought my R-class. If I go the SUV route, it will be a smaller compact SUV or a larger 3 row (in which case, I'd just give up the roof box). I'd rather avoid the typical 2 row mid-size SUV for the same reasons I chose the R-class in 2011. On of my criteria is that it fits in my garage with my roof box. We ski a lot in winter - so I like keeping the skiis and boards on top vs wedged into the back. The ML and GLE are too tall. Smaller SUV's like the SQ5 are actually a little shorter in height than the R-class (I have about 1.5 inches of clearance into my garage with my roof box). Might look at the GLC 43 though...
It's really a shame that MB did such a horrible marketing job with the R-class. I'd buy another in a heartbeat if a new one was available - despite the problems I've had with mine. Obviously, I'm biased but I think the R-class looks better with age and was too far ahead of the curve for the general public to understand the concept without effective marketing. It's such a great concept (taller, 3 row AWD wagon with tow capabilities), and you can imagine how good it would look with an updated design... For me, it has been a great people hauler when the kids were young and I needed the three rows. It's been a fantastic tow vehicle. And I chuckle when I go to a building supply store or gardening center and end up hauling back more stuff than any of the urban pickup drivers. Any replacement car will require a giveup of some capability (I need a hitch - but anything else can be a giveup. But if I have to give up something, it has to be eg: an absolute blast to drive). This is why I keep driving my R-class, and make excuses to fix it... It does everything, and I actually enjoy driving it. But as the kms roll up, I know my time before a major repair is running down.
End of production, gas powered R's are pretty much indestructible. Yes they have their quirks (maintaining air bags, rear hatch, parktronic sensors, etc.), but every vehicle has some kind of minor issues.
So I say find a lower mileage example of a gas powered '12 (edit: or even another 11 if you're not insistent on upgrading to the M276), drop in a modern sound system, and you've fit the guideline almost perfectly. Yes, you'd have to give up lane keep & engine stop and go, but you could for sure have a reputable indy swap in Distronic from a ML. And I'm guessing your '11 already has a hitch you could swap over if needed.
It might take a wait to find the right one, but at the end of the day you'd know what you have and wouldn't have to deal with a $50k - $60k debt obligation either.
Last edited by Lioninstreet; 09-16-2019 at 11:47 AM.
2015 Audi S4, 1982 Fiat Spyder, 2010 R350, 2013 E550 Cabriolet
What he said.
Though I can put up with the current sound system with a few additions. I use an older iPhone in the glove box with gigabytes of music though you can also get a device so you can stream from your phone on bluetooth. The navigation is a bit basic, but you can get used to its quirks. On a longer trip I use WAZE anyway along side of the NAV.
Oh, I wanted to add that I find most of the aftermarket COMMAND replacements use a total touch screen interface. I personally find touch screen inconvenient and even dangerous. Just my opinion.
Originally Posted by Lioninstreet
End of production, gas powered R's are pretty much indestructible. Yes they have their quirks (maintaining air bags, rear hatch, parktronic sensors, etc.), but every vehicle has some kind of minor issues.
So I say find a lower mileage example of a gas powered '12, drop in a modern sound system, and you've fit the guideline almost perfectly. Yes, you'd have to give up lane keep & engine stop and go, but you could for sure have a reputable indy swap in Distronic from a ML. And I'm guessing your '11 already has a hitch you could swap over if needed.
It might take a wait to find the right one, but at the end of the day you'd know what you have and wouldn't have to deal with a $50k - $60k debt obligation either.
With regards to towing, keep in mind the car-based wagons typically have very low tongue weight ratings even though the trailer tow rating is high. For example, the 640i GT has a 100 kg limit, and the highest rated hitch I could find was rated at 130 kg, or 290 lbs, even though the trailer rating is 2300 kg on that same hitch. If you're towing a typical American style trailer, realistically you can tow a maximum of around 3000 lbs. European travel trailers have about 4-6% tongue weight while American trailers are typically around 10%. The only reason I justify the W251 class as capable of more than the 300 lbs tongue weight rating is because MB saddled it with a Class II hitch, which tops out at 300 lbs. The mechanically similar W164 and X164 class come with a Class IV hitch, capable of 700+ lbs tongue weight with 7000 lbs tow capacity. So unless you're towing a light tongue weight trailer, your only options on your list for towing are the Q5, Q7, MDX, Atlas, Telluride, Palisade, and V90 (marginally- 350 lbs tongue weight capacity).
I've looked long and hard, and prior to buying our R500 a year ago, I came to the conclusion that there are almost no vehicles like it. No one wants something that is long with a long wheelbase and short- it looks too much like a minivan. If it's going to be long, it needs to be tall. The last generation X166 class was only 1" shorter than the R class, but was almost 8" taller and had a 5" shorter wheelbase. None of the above are as long as the W251.
In one of his posts, OP stated they want to comfortably carry 4 with room for luggage and alluded to already having using the R class he currently owns to tow with. If you were really pushing capacity, I'd guess that considering how the OE hitch attaches, it wouldn't be that difficult to remove its class II receiver and weld on a class III, upgrade the brakes, and add an oil cooler. That if you had an R that you wanted to fill up with passengers and luggage while towing extra weight, go long distances, and over hilly terrain with.
Same 06-12 ML350 with a class 3 hitch is tow rated for 4600 - 7200 lbs depending on the model year.
End of production, gas powered R's are pretty much indestructible. Yes they have their quirks (maintaining air bags, rear hatch, parktronic sensors, etc.), but every vehicle has some kind of minor issues.
So I say find a lower mileage example of a gas powered '12 (edit: or even another 11 if you're not insistent on upgrading to the M276), drop in a modern sound system, and you've fit the guideline almost perfectly. Yes, you'd have to give up lane keep & engine stop and go, but you could for sure have a reputable indy swap in Distronic from a ML. And I'm guessing your '11 already has a hitch you could swap over if needed.
It might take a wait to find the right one, but at the end of the day you'd know what you have and wouldn't have to deal with a $50k - $60k debt obligation either.
Originally Posted by gforaker
What he said.
In Canada, a gas powered late model R-class is rare. I know they exist, but I have never seen one, and I usually notice another R-class (in fact, I've seen a R63 once, but have never seen a non-BlueTec 2011/2012 on the streets). I looked on AutoTrader just to get a sense of the trade-in value for mine - and all the 2011/2012's are diesels. I'd actually buy another diesel R-class if MB still sold the car (and sold diesels in NA) as I think it's a great engine for such a large car - just too bad they have a lot of problems.
Anyway, I'm continuing my slow search. I am in no rush as my car is running pretty well and the trade-in value is low - so even if it breaks, I won't lose that much. The 640i GT is still my top choice. I test drove a couple (that were close but not perfect in spec) and they are great cars - very solid, fast, and they handle really well for a large "sport" sedan (BMW fanboys hated the 6GT because it didn't handle like an M2... duh...) For what it was designed to do, it handles great. The only negative after test-driving is that the interior seems almost too delicate for how I use my cars - not sure how it would hold up to cottage runs packed with tools and supplies, 2x6's piled between the seats, kids and dog, etc. Of course, they are going at discounted prices on the CPO market - so from a value standpoint, they are pretty good. If I bought one new, I'd probably have plastic seat covers on! Makes me appreciate how the Artico pleather has held up in my car. I'm also circling back to take another look at the Volvo V90. It's smaller inside than the 640i but I'm more of a wagon-guy - just love the looks of the V90 (V90 Cross Country is not bad either). Of course, you just can't compare the 4 cylinder Volvo to the inline 6 B58 engine - even though their outputs are close.
Lastly - the E-class wagon. I still have these on my radar, but it's very rare that a CPO shows up with a spec that I like. Right now, all of the E-class wagons that have the options I want are Obsidian Black exterior... talking about hearses!
In one of his posts, OP stated they want to comfortably carry 4 with room for luggage and alluded to already having using the R class he currently owns to tow with. If you were really pushing capacity, I'd guess that considering how the OE hitch attaches, it wouldn't be that difficult to remove its class II receiver and weld on a class III, upgrade the brakes, and add an oil cooler. That if you had an R that you wanted to fill up with passengers and luggage while towing extra weight, go long distances, and over hilly terrain with.
Same 06-12 ML350 with a class 3 hitch is tow rated for 4600 - 7200 lbs depending on the model year.
There is another member who did this. For me the class II is just sufficient. If I towed more, I'd probably want a higher capacity hitch - the R, I believe is capable of handling more than 3500 lbs.
My boat's official weight, with trailer is about 2700 pounds. With gas, equipment - I'm guessing it's still a shade under 3000 - which is close to the safe limit for a class II. Can't say enough for what a fantastic tow vehicle the R has been - effortless pulling - very good braking and handling, even decent fuel economy. Nowadays I don't really tow very far. I built a boat ramp on my property and use an old tractor to launch and it's on a boat lift all season. Then I store it in a barn on the property for winter. So I only need to tow it to the dealer every now and then for service (about 50 kms round trip) or if I take it somewhere (which is very rare). My other occasional use for the hitch is to tow a utility trailer every now and then - much lighter than my boat. My main use for the hitch is for my bike rack.
My advice... rent a truck for a day when you need to make that trip to the dealer, that way you have the option of choosing something with a low tongue weight capacity. That bouncing on the freeway will put a lot of stress on the hitch, and most of the sedan-based crossovers top out around 200 lbs tongue weight, far lower than the 300 lbs of the Class II on the OEM R-class hitch. Additionally, most of the sedan-based hitches hang off the rear sheet metal without additional structural support. Higher tongue weight hitches attach either to the bottom frame or have extensions into the frame for structural support.
I had a local welder cut off the 1-1/4" receiver and weld on a 2" receiver on the OEM hitch. He charged me $200 for it, which was worth the peace of mind. The R-class's weight rating exactly mirrors the limitations of a Class II hitch, but being based off the ML and GL class, I'm sure they're mechanically capable of the 7000 lbs the ML and GL are rated for. In fact, the long wheelbase and lower center of gravity will make it much better than the ML at least. The limitation is that the R-class hitch is somewhat less beefy than the ML and GL hitch, particularly the frame inserts. I wouldn't hesitate to pull 5000 lbs on my R class though.
We replaced our 2008 with another R320, this time 2007. Nothing replaces these vehicles but the same car. Just did a 8500km family road trip in the replacement. Still have the old one...someday will fix what the mice did.
The value these cars offer is astounding. Paid $3000 CDN and had to invest 40 hours to change the park brake cables through out and a suspension air compressor plus some cleaning and servicing.
Towing I agree, amazing vehicle. I have pushed it to 5500lbs so far, a 1985 300SD and 1980 300TD on a tow dolly. That said what it lacks over the full SUV's is a true frame in the back it is really just sheet metal and no proper reinforcement (old Mercedes hitches in Europe had long arms that went all the way to the rear sway bar mounting point for extra strength). Just bolting to the rebar is not really a true hitch with strength, and the extra arm just bolts into simple sheet metal (aftermarket hitch).
We also have a Golf Sportwagen, it has a good sized interior (Alltrack is the same car). plus lots of hidden storage under the cargo floor. It does not however offer much in features. But nice vehicle that does most of what the R can and uses half the fuel.
Well, I pulled the trigger on a 2019 Volvo V90 T6 Cross Country. Got a good deal on it (low mileage Volvo Canada Exec driven car) and got a reasonable trade on the R-class (considering the body needed a lot of TLC). While I'm excited to pick it up next week I still felt a little bittersweet about giving up the R-class. It's been a fantastic road trip car and we had a lot of good adventures with it. Despite it's many, many problems - it was a great car. It will be hard to top in terms of capabilities overall comfort, and its do anything-ness. The Volvo gives up space and cargo room - and the R's super smooth ride - but everything else is even or a gain... hopefully it will be a little more reliable too (it came with a 6 year/160000 km warranty just in case - so safe for a few years.... )
The V90 Cross Country looks small compared to the R-class.
Maybe a ridiculous question, but would any W251 driver here have considered going to an older, well-maintained S124 E Class?
… E-class wagon: my sister has a 2011 and it's been a great car for her - very reliable too. This is one of my top choices but pretty pricey, …
After driving a much older (but still super reliable) 2000 S210 E Class for five years, I'm looking at both W251 and S124.
S210: luxuries/gadgets are numerous and easily defined.
S124: fewer luxuries/gadgets, but there's this:
… I still felt a little bittersweet about giving up the R-class. …
– beyond bittersweet, giving up an S124 can be gut-wrenching. I know it's a cliche but with a good S124 there's a pleasure/luxury that's difficult to define. Two days ago I was behind the wheel of one for the first time in five years, the feeling is simply gorgeous.
W251: certainly more luxuries/gadgets than the S210. I'm not a car-watcher by nature; until a couple of weeks ago, I never knew of the R Class and I have yet to see one in real life, but from what I see in photographs, I like/love the design. Absurdly difficult to find photos that convey the true size by showing a person (or people) seated in the vehicle, over a two-week period I have found just two: https://www.benzworld.org/threads/po...#post-17803702 (not the best, a little wide angle) and one other, which I stupidly forgot to bookmark :-/
S124 is a nice car, very uncommon and maybe exceptionally hard to find one. I had one briefly, found the parts prices elevated over the W123 and W126 so traded back to the older models. It is was still a simple car and drove very well. Compared to the W251, more driving feel but not nearly as much room for passengers. The W251 is absolutely huge inside, and very long. Second row is very limo like. Third row is fine for smaller adults even on extended trips (not just for kids) not a cramped rear facing seat meant just for kids like the S124.
Beware of parts prices for exhaust and rear hydraulic suspension on the S124, kinda pricey. For most is just too old a car to rely on and lacks an electronics or in car entertainment which is pretty well required for most families now. It can be reliable, but takes some serious preventative maintenance and a shop that knew the cars when newer. On the other hand nobody seems to understand the W251...when it has issues you have to go far to fix it. The W251 is a very practical do everything car especially when fully equipped with Airmatic and rear seat entertainment, but the driving experience is a little lacking. It covers long distance beautifully though, 800 miles a day is no issue and always able to find a comfortable seat position.
My only complaint about the S124, the fuel tank was too small (very little highway range), I seem to remember around 350- 400 miles, used to 600-700. I had a 1988 300TE, brown on gold, It was nice, I just hated paying too much for parts.
If you stay in the M-B family, the leading options as I see them are ML/GLE or GLC, either pre-owned or new. The E-Class towing specifications weren't easily findable on the MBUSA site.
I have noticed the Buick TourX wagons lately, they are surprisingly sharp. About the same size as a C-Class wagon, which is not available in the US. I realize you are in Canada, I don't know if the C-Class wagon is available in Canada.
2015 Audi S4, 1982 Fiat Spyder, 2010 R350, 2013 E550 Cabriolet
The wife and I had the R350 into the dealer a few weeks ago to finally replace the airbag in the recall. While waiting we saw the new 2020 GLE on the floor. I had previously seen the ML and thought the cargo area was too small for me. The new GLE has been expanded for 2020 and now seems almost up to the R Class in cargo area. I think the GLE is just over 80 cf and the R is around 84. We were very impressed.
But I think those capacity numbers might be deceiving due to the higher interior cabin height of the GLE. Between the two, the interior cargo length with the second row in use is within an inch of each other. But total capacity length of the R with all the seats down is about a foot and a half more than the GLE. So there's a lot more room for the second & third row passengers.
08-21-2019, 12:09 PM
S124 in lieu of a W251?
