Richard / E320

Warning: possible eBay deception - 1991 Mercedes-Benz : 500-Series 560 SEC

eBay recently had a 1991 Mercedes-Benz 560 SEC; (looks like it has been re-listed again) but didn’t sell. I used the ‘Make Offer’ feature, which eBay touts as a ‘window to negotiate’ between buyer and seller but in my case only got sarcastic emails. (I’m not the only one, though: he was rude in his reply to a question that was posted by another potential buyer and his negative feedback shows that he called one buyer a ‘Liar’.

When I used the ‘Ask Seller a Question’ things only got worse. For example, in his listing he states that “Please keep in mind you are viewing this car without any sort of detailing...just a hand-wash and a vacuum in my garage. No polish, no wax, no tire dressing, no carpet shampoo, no leather conditioning, NOTHING!” When I pointed out that the pictures clearly showed tires that had just been ‘dressed’ did he ever get irate. And worse, the engine photos clearly show that it has been sprayed!

The listing also stated that the vehicle had never been titled in the United States (be the first, the listing said) ; but the vehicle photos show one with California plates mounted to the rear, with the registration good through Nov. 2007. Since I live in California, I wanted to know how this vehicle had California plates but never been titled in the US; as far as I know, it can’t be done! Oops! More hostile email and threats, including filing complaints against me with eBay just for asking the questions.

I also asked regarding him as a seller but got stone-walled again. He touts his honesty in the listing but there are many inconsistencies. I also found Craig’s List ad, posted by same seller. In two of those ads he states that ‘I’m not a dealer’ and yet I could easily trace the ad back to him, his phone number, his email account and his website stating ‘Your source for Europe’s finest automobiles’ In an ad for an Audi, he states ‘She'll pull $14K+ on ebay, but I'd prefer to avoid the hassles, time lag, and non Audi-enthusiast stupid questions (especially the stupid questions). Real professional seller… the seller has spent far more time avoiding the questions, for whatever the reasons, than simply answering the questions or giving an explanation.

His listing goes on ad nausea (the listing, if printed as a document, is 46 pages long.) but yet the seller gets really teed-off if you ask the intelligent questions: so much for trying to being an informed buyer, I guess…

Good luck if any member here bids on this nice, but WAY over-priced SEC… and whatever you do, don’t ‘Ask the Seller a Question’!

Tyler Durden

Link?

I might get bored and start asking lots of stupid questions!

Richard / E320

Well, we all have to play nice, but here's the link...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...QQcmdZViewItem

1985mb

Why are you bringing your beef from Benzworld to this forum?

Richard / E320

Guess you need to improve those reading comprehension skills a little bit; not a single post states that I have a beef with BenzWorld, since I posted the warning here first. Please don't post any further in this thread unless you take the time to actually READ my WARNING posts regarding an eBay listing and the unprofessional conduct of ONE seller.

And the facts still remain; even though I never identified the seller in any way, (a moderator did) the seller is not bashful about attacking me and trying to put me on the defensive, and still refuses to answer all my questions. He doesn’t have to, of course, and you yourself are welcome to buy his SEC… maybe he’ll throw in those California license plates on the ‘never titled’ vehicle so you too can park out on the street.

Thanks!

HeirKranz

Bro, Bruce knows his cars and if making a couple bucks on the side, well it is his livelyhood. He sells these cars from time to time, not like it would be enough to live off of at any dealership if he were strictly a car salesman---he is liquidating most of his expensive parts and knows people who import some in from time to time.

My advice to you, you are looking for a 91 560sec, so there are a bunch coming into the US from Japan and some left over from southern CA--- If yu are mad and can't afford Bruce's Prices for his pristine cars, then look for another registered importer and grab one yourself---a multitude awaits you--so quit b1tching about him and his refusal to speak with you.

Eventually he will get close to his asking price, I have seen some in our "group" look for a pristine example for a number of months before flying across the country for one in superb condition, and not all have to be presented by Bruce, he just presents some of the best-----

Richard / E320

Since you don't really know what I do for a living or what I earn, (I'm not a cellular salesman) I'll let that slide... but come on, it's not like $18k itself is much money... I bought a motorhome some months back and paid more than half that amount just in sales tax, so it isn't the $18k.

'Affording to pay' and 'wanting to way' are two different things; just because someone can 'afford' to pay way over retail doesn’t mean that they 'should' or that they 'want' to pay way over retail. Sure, that vehicle will sell, sooner or later, and it will either sell for $18k or it won't... if you buy it at $18k and retail blue book is only $12k, you're pretty much going to take a financial hit if it gets totaled since insurance companies don't base the overall value on it based on what YOU paid, but rather the open market in general.

If the desire to own something is far higher than the reality of what you should pay for it, there's always someone who will do just that. You can buy Google stock and pay over $600 a share today and hope that you 'might' make some money in the long run, but I can tell you that I bought at the original $225 a share; would I buy more Google at $600 just because I can 'afford' to? No way... doesn't make financial sense to me, but it will make financial sense to someone else, and that ultimately raises the value of my Google stock, earning far more than owning a couple of M-B’s. In fact, in most (BUT NOT ALL) cases, vehicles are really fun to drive / fun to own, depreciating assets and not how you want to set-up your future retirement plans…

HeirKranz

i don't really care what you do, how much money you waste, or where you choose to waste your money at--I'm at the opposite end of the life spectrum and if i need to be a grasshopper for a while instread of an ant....well i have some time to change that but i already have some long term investments on the side

my hobby is buying these older ones for pennies and putting them back together the right way and the time spent on them is fun and keeps my mind off of other things! I don't go out and buy the most expensive one i can get my hands on that i can do nothing with but drive---

It is true cars are the worst depreciating investment next to the stock market and you will never get out what you put in, but if you se a specimen that seems to be "the car" you are looking for and "have to have it" then grab it at that time.

Let me explain it in a better analogy of why you are getting so much static on either site-- you go into a bar, by yourself, walking up to a row of old "friends" and totally calling one of the oldest and most respected members a fraud, and expecting not to incite the rest of the group that is sitting around him or expect them not to say anything back to you about it.....
Vent all you want about his "cars" for the other lurkers on the sites to view but I was simply just giving you an FYI

iAladdin

I really want to stay out of this, but I have to say they guy claims no tire dressing when clearly there is plenty on it. Same with with engine and so on. The worst part is the california plate number when it is not titled in the US?? Something is not right here. and I for one appreciate the warning.
Maybe there are other reasons why this was carried over to this forum from another, but that does not change the fact the seller is miss representing his sale. Just my 2 cents.

Tyler Durden

I refrained/abstained/contained myself from provoking the seller because (1) I'm not going to bid on it and I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me, just to pick a fight, however (2)the description misrepresents what the pictures clearly demonstrate which isn't cool and a heads up to here is pretty reasonable IMO...

emagic

You should post the Q & A from yourself and the seller here and let the interested parties be the judge instead of just your side of the story. Kind of like trashing one's image and no way for him to defense himself.

Everyone has a right to make money and that car clearly is not in your price point so why the questions to the seller???

Richard / E320

I think if you re-read just the title to my thread, you'll see that it says 'deception'; not fraud. When someone states something as 'fact' and then posts pictures that don't substantiate what was stated, that's deceptive to me. Could it be an honest mistake? Sure, and simply say so if someone calls you on it. Refusing to answer the questions, getting on a soapbox and calling someone a 'internet stalker', sending crap emails, filing bogus complaints to eBay, come on... if you want to defend that behavior, that's your choice. I simply stated WHAT HAPPENED TO ME; if your're not interested in the information, great, there are plenty of other threads to read. Just because you don't happen to agree with me and it's not important to you, doesn't mean that someone else isn't interested in the information.

The whole point of forums is an exchange of communication, such as information, points of view, points of interest, entertainment, etc. No two people are going to agree on every post / thread every single time. And that's okay... let's say that 100 new threads were posted yesterday and each one said the exact same thing, such as the words 'Blah, Blah, Blah', and 100 more today saying the exact same thing, 'Blah, Blah, Blah' and 100 tomorrow, saying the exact same thing.... it wouldn't take long before the forum would have outlived it usefulness, since everyone would already know what the other members posted today without logging in.

I'll take the exchange of ideas and points of view, even if I don't always agree or feel that 'man, that post is way out there' any day, since it's okay for us to disagree, and theres always another thread I can go read...

Richard / E320

emagic;2472483]You should post the Q & A from yourself and the seller here and let the interested parties be the judge instead of just your side of the story. Kind of like trashing one's image and no way for him to defense himself.


I feel that I was pretty specific in my original thread, but here's three:

One email asked why the ad stated that the vehicle only had a hand wash, no dressings were used, and yet the posted photos clearly showed new tire dressing and even the engine compartment has clearly been sprayed.

On another, I asked him to explain why the listing stated that the SEC had never been titled in the United States (be the first, it said), yet a photo showed it with California plates.

When I came across Craig’s List ads, stating that ‘I’m not a dealer’ and yet I could track his name and phone number back to his Import automobile website, I sent an email asking this:

Since you are an auto broker, presumably licensed through the state of New Jersey, I'd like to request your state business number and your DMV dealer license number. Your eBay ad states you do business from 'Beautiful Bucks County, PA, United States', so if you could provide that information also, it would be most helpful.

As you know, you can never be too careful with all the unscrupulous auto dealers and brokers out there, so I'd like to verify your current standing with your state DMV and the Better Business Bureau.

Thanks in advance in providing this information in a timely manner-

As far as I’m concerned, these are fair questions when someone is selling an older vehicle that you can’t readily see or drive, and we’re talking about spending $19k here… on a $300 Wii, sure, you tend not to ask as many questions, but when you bid on eBay and you’re the winner, you’re the new owner. eBay listings clearly tell you to ask questions when bidding; eBay doesn’t want bid retractions after the listing closes because you didn’t know the specifics of what you bid on.


Everyone has a right to make money and that car clearly is not in your price point so why the questions to the seller???

How did you arrive that the car is not my price point? Sure, I made a low-ball initial bid, ($2,500) as EVERYONE does on eBay, just look at the starting bids on vehicle listings... I easily found $40k vehicles, with starting bids of $1 to $500! The concept with eBay is that you continue to bid (or using the Make Offer feature, which this particular listing had) you can negotiate with the seller. I've never stated that this vehicle is only worth $2,500 on the open market, and have never stated that was all I was going to offer... as you know, eBay is an online auction, requiring multiple bids or offers from multiple buyers... the vehicle is still listed, with currently 6 offers, Declined, Pending, Expired, Declined, Expired and Expired, so someone in the market for an SEC, make your best offer...

As far as the seller not defending himself, based on his posts and using selective memory, I'd have to disagree with you on that one...


P.S. - Found the two emails that I sent, asking for clarification of the listing-
I need more information regarding this vehicle listing on eBay:

Is this a Private Party sale or are you a dealer / auto broker?

If you are a dealer or auto broker, where is the physical location of your business?

Does the state that you are licensed through require dealer / broker disclosure; that is, are you required to state that you are a dealer / broker in any listings?

Are you the principal owner, or an employee representing this company?

What state(s) are you licensed through?
(Please state both business license and any DMV licenses)

Due to the huge fraud that takes place on eBay, I need the above information to make an informed buying decision.

Thank you
eBay member rjdjbd



In your ad for this vehice, you state "The winner of this auction will be the first to title this car in the United States! --"

and yet in one of the photos the vehicle is clearly shown with California license plates...

If the vehicle has never been titled in the United States, why does the vehicle have California plates?

Thank you
eBay member rjdjbd

Becks Imports

I think (key word, think) that Richard and I have gotten past this already.

I think he understands from people that have dealt with me on BW and here that I am not a scam artist. I think I understand that he saw inconsistincies in my ebay ad and assumed I was like an ebay car dealer that does not know or care about the cars they sell. We got off on the wrong foot when I asked Richard (unsolicited) about buying a car from me, and he in turn a few months later sent an offer of $2500 and $1 (after I gave a snappy reply to his $2500 offer) on my $18K car.

Anyhow, if the above is incorrect, well, at least I have moved on, I am completely comfortable with the cars I buy and sell as a collector. I really enjoy it, I fix them as needed, buy the best ones I can find, and you can check my ebay feedback, as well as members on BW that have bought from me, and you will find everyone is happy. I'm not a used car dealer, there is no "lot" , I spend my own money, they are all in my driveway, etc. The web site he refers to is one I had set up a few years ago in the hopes of one day doing this for a living. But I am not a dealer, no license, no business as dealer, etc.

I reused an old ebay listing from another SEC, which said no tire dressing. The fact is, I had it washed locally and they used dressing. I did NOT get it detailed and did NOT dress the engine bay. I got it that way. Sorry, shoot me! I think that's pretty mild compared to what goes on with ebay cars! It's as nice as I stated in the listing......a fantastic all-original car.

The CA plate is just an old one I had lying around and hung on the car while I left it in the street for a few hours when jockeying cars around so I would not get a summons. It's not a CA registered car.

I think we can all move on, and you are welcome to ask any questions you'd like. Hope that clears it up.

Bruce

harkgar

[QUOTE=HeirKranz;2472310]i don't really care what you do, how much money you waste, or where you choose to waste your money at--I'm at the opposite end of the life spectrum and if i need to be a grasshopper for a while instread of an ant....well i have some time to change that but i already have some long term investments on the side

my hobby is buying these older ones for pennies and putting them back together the right way and the time spent on them is fun and keeps my mind off of other things! I don't go out and buy the most expensive one i can get my hands on that i can do nothing with but drive---

It is true cars are the worst depreciating investment next to the stock market and you will never get out what you put in, but if you se a specimen that seems to be "the car" you are looking for and "have to have it" then grab it at that time.

Dear Heir,

Is the gorgeous creature on the left the same one leaning on the 230 Kompressor?

This is a board for discussing MB cars not a medium for arguing whether some E Bay seller is honest or not. $15,000 is a lot of dole for a 16 year old car.

Richard / E320

Fair enough Bruce; let's move on to another thread...