US vs. Euro Technical Differences?
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From: Rockford,IL
560SEL
US vs. Euro Technical Differences?
Does anyone know the technical differences between US and Euro spec 560SEL's? I'm wondering just where the extra 60+ horsepower came from. Higher compression? Cams? Computer?
Is it feasible to upgrade a US engine to Euro specs?
Is it feasible to upgrade a US engine to Euro specs?
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From: Phoenix
This question has been beaten. You should be able to do a search. Pistons, cams, smog-pump, and exhaust manifolds are all different from U.S. to euro. Find some AMG cams for a euro 500 and you can get up to 276hp. 320hp for a euro 560 with AMG cams. Outside of that, major upgrades need to be done, like AMG larger intake manifold, exhaust headers, bore the cylinders, etc.
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From: Rockford,IL
560SEL
I have searched on this forum and others but have not found the technical information I seek. Perhaps I'm blazing new trails, but it's hard to believe no one has seriously looked into this.
I guess I'll have to find parts catalogs for Euro and US and compare part numbers.
I guess I'll have to find parts catalogs for Euro and US and compare part numbers.
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From: Phoenix
I will be more specific... The pistons are higher compression, not as dished as U.S. pistons. The cams have higher lift durations and are therefore "hotter," U.S. has very restrictive exhaust manifold setup that wraps around into a single pipe, euro has 4-peice manifold setup, U.S. has smog pump setup, supposedly euro fuel distributers have higher flow but I haven't confirmed that. Hopefully that answers some of your questions.
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From: Rockford,IL
560SEL
Thankyou! That's the kind of info I'm looking for.
Cams and exhaust manifold are certainly do-able and it wouldn't be the first smog pump I've taken off. It would be nice to know if any of the fuel system (injectors, pump, distributor) were upgraded to support the extra power.
Unless the cams have much longer duration it would seem the higher compression pistons would bump up the octane requirement from the US version's 91, so that will need some looking into.
All in all it's sounding pretty feasible to me, the pistons just may have to wait until rebuild time. There is nothing better than hotrodding with factory approved parts. I'll keep you informed as my own research progresses.
Cams and exhaust manifold are certainly do-able and it wouldn't be the first smog pump I've taken off. It would be nice to know if any of the fuel system (injectors, pump, distributor) were upgraded to support the extra power.
Unless the cams have much longer duration it would seem the higher compression pistons would bump up the octane requirement from the US version's 91, so that will need some looking into.
All in all it's sounding pretty feasible to me, the pistons just may have to wait until rebuild time. There is nothing better than hotrodding with factory approved parts. I'll keep you informed as my own research progresses.
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From: Phoenix
Injectors and pump are the same, I don't have solid evidence that the fuel distributor is any different. You'll be fine running 91 octane with a euro motor. I had one (560) and it didn't ping at all with 91 octane. You're better off sourcing a whole euro motor rather than trying to find pistons, manifolds and cams. Let me know if you are serious about finding a euro motor, I may be able to scrape one up. 300hp, 334 lb/ft torque without a CAT.
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From: Kansas City, MO, USA
1989 560SEL, 1999 S600, 2005 S600, 2008 S550 4Matic
You're all forgetting to take something else into consideration. Back in the days, M-B was forced to report lower power output figures to save the owners on already stratopheric insurance premiums. Dyno tests of the US-560SEL have shown horsepower to be more in the 260 - 275 range and not the 238 reported by M-B. Torque seems to be closer to 320 ft-lbs than the 287 ft-lbs reported. The difference between the Euro spec and US spec engines aren't enough to yield such a massive difference in power. Additionally, after driving these cars back to back, one notices that the differences experienced while driving aren't enough to account for the huge difference between the reported power specs.
Not that the facts stated as differences between the engines are false... they are true as far as I know. Just that the difference in power output is closer to 30hp than 60hp.
Not that the facts stated as differences between the engines are false... they are true as far as I know. Just that the difference in power output is closer to 30hp than 60hp.
Last edited by braverichard; Dec 16, 2004 at 02:26 PM.
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From: Rockford,IL
560SEL
Now I'm very curious about the power output of our 560. I admit it seems too fast for 238hp and 4200lb. Almost as fast as my '85 ASC/McLaren with ~240hp and 3100lb. Of course this is all according to my butt-o-meter, I don't have any hard numbers. I tend to think the Benz feels fast partially because it's so smooth and quiet. At the next Cobra club dyno day I just might take the Benz.
I would think bumping up compression to 10:1, a better breathing exhaust and hotter cams would be good for more than 30hp though. I gained almost 30hp at the wheels on my 4.6L Cobra without even touching the cams or compression ratio.
I would think bumping up compression to 10:1, a better breathing exhaust and hotter cams would be good for more than 30hp though. I gained almost 30hp at the wheels on my 4.6L Cobra without even touching the cams or compression ratio.
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From: Kansas City, MO, USA
1989 560SEL, 1999 S600, 2005 S600, 2008 S550 4Matic
Did you get the chance to dyno test your US spec 560SEL? I just ran into a guy who has actually done it on his US spec 560SEL and he gave me the exact results of his dyno test with the engine loaded, just like the SAE test: 272hp at 5,000rpm and 307lb.ft of torque at 3,750rpm.
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From: Nashville
300SEL
the euro 560 with a catalytic converter (KAT) had 279hp and 9.0:1 compression, same as the US car. the no-cat version had 300hp and 10.0:1 compression pistons. the cams are the same. you can install cams from an early 3.5L M116 if you want more duration. also, both euro engines had a timing adjustment on the EZL for use with higher octane fuel, the US car is not adjustable and is set for low octane fuel (91 octane).
the US engine was basically the euro KAT engine with more restrictive exhaust manifolds and an air injection pump, nothing mysterious about that. take that stuff off and its a euro KAT motor, get 10.0:1 pistons and its the same as the 300HP engine. The "hot" setup is a 5.6L bottom end and M119 heads, that should be good for 350 hp, all motor, all MB parts.
the US engine was basically the euro KAT engine with more restrictive exhaust manifolds and an air injection pump, nothing mysterious about that. take that stuff off and its a euro KAT motor, get 10.0:1 pistons and its the same as the 300HP engine. The "hot" setup is a 5.6L bottom end and M119 heads, that should be good for 350 hp, all motor, all MB parts.
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From: Rockford,IL
560SEL
Now we have a discussion going!!!!
It will be spring/summer before I get the chance to run my car on a chassis dyno. Was that other 560SEL on a chassis or engine dyno? Are those corrected or absolute numbers? If that's horsepower at the wheels and SAE corrected that would be about 320hp at the crank.
Thanks Schwarzwaggen, that's the kind of info I'm looking for! If the M119 heads make that kind of difference and bolt up it seems like a good swap to keep in mind at head rebuild time.
It will be spring/summer before I get the chance to run my car on a chassis dyno. Was that other 560SEL on a chassis or engine dyno? Are those corrected or absolute numbers? If that's horsepower at the wheels and SAE corrected that would be about 320hp at the crank.
Thanks Schwarzwaggen, that's the kind of info I'm looking for! If the M119 heads make that kind of difference and bolt up it seems like a good swap to keep in mind at head rebuild time.
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From: Phoenix
The "hot" setup is a 5.6L bottom end and M119 heads, that should be good for 350 hp, all motor, all MB parts.
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From: Nashville
300SEL
Originally Posted by EuroCoupe
Have you seen this done? They're 2 different bolt patterns and something very custom would need to be done. A 5.6 is just a 5.0 M117 with a longer throw from the crankshaft. The M119 AMG 6.0 was bored to 100mm/cylinder and fitted with a 560 crankshaft that required minor counterbalancing. If you can find any info on what exactly was done to the 560 crankshaft, you can fabricate it and throw it and some connecting rods into a M119 5.0 to get the 5.6 of displacement, probably good for the 350hp or so, considering the 6.0 made 380hp. I've never seen M119 heads on a M117 bottom end. AMG handmade the 32v heads for the M117 block but that's all I've seen.
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From: Nashville
300SEL
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From: Phoenix
That is very strange... All of the tags and plates are from an original 6.0 with the AMG M117 32v heads but those clearly look like M119 heads. Even has a M117 air filter housing... Not sure if the M119 valve covers are compatible with the AMG 32v heads, but that's just weird! Wonder if anyone can get any info in English on that car?? Very interesting, thanks for the link..
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From: Nashville
300SEL
Originally Posted by EuroCoupe
That is very strange... All of the tags and plates are from an original 6.0 with the AMG M117 32v heads but those clearly look like M119 heads. Even has a M117 air filter housing... Not sure if the M119 valve covers are compatible with the AMG 32v heads, but that's just weird! Wonder if anyone can get any info in English on that car?? Very interesting, thanks for the link..
i was pretty astounded when i first came across this as well. my assumption is that when the amg heads broke, they were swapped out for the M119 heads. i've heard that the amg 2 piece head design was weak anyway.
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From: Phoenix
i was pretty astounded when i first came across this as well. my assumption is that when the amg heads broke, they were swapped out for the M119 heads. i've heard that the amg 2 piece head design was weak anyway.
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1990 560 SEC (modified), SLK55, CLK500
Those are the AMG 4 valve 117 heads. if you look closely, they cut the valve covers of a 119 off and covered up the 117 head. hahahha...
Take a look at the far right of the engine where the PS pump is.
Take a look at the far right of the engine where the PS pump is.
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From: Nashville
300SEL
Originally Posted by drakon
Those are the AMG 4 valve 117 heads. if you look closely, they cut the valve covers of a 119 off and covered up the 117 head. hahahha...
Take a look at the far right of the engine where the PS pump is.
Take a look at the far right of the engine where the PS pump is.
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From: Nashville
300SEL
Originally Posted by EuroCoupe
Unfortunately, there are some horror stories associated with the M117 4v heads. Most of the time it turns out they were neglected or not run the way they were meant to by the careless owners. These cars were $145K+ back in the 80's so about the cost of a $200,000 Ferrari nowadays. Some of the owners had so much money they just didn't care or take the time to treat the cars the way they should be. You can't let these motors run at 100+ degrees all the time or even begin to let them get to the edge of overheating, which is easy to do with that giant motor stuffed in there and the thrill of flooring it at every light. The other very important issue is to let it get to the 80-degree ideal operating temp before you nail the throttle in any way. Failure to follow either of these rules results in warped heads. The nice thing about the 6.0's is if you warp the 4v heads you can simply put original 560 heads back on and still have a 6.0 2V that will make about 330hp. I know a guy in Washington who races his 6.0 32v in SCCA and has 75K with no problems whatsoever, so it just depends.
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1990 560 SEC (modified), SLK55, CLK500
If you look at the other pictures, there is a sticker on the '119 heads' that show it is actually 117, 6.0 32v.
Also, think about it the other way around, what evidence is there that they are 119 heads, rather than 117 4 valves? Those covers are not bolted on in place of the 117 4 valve covers, simply capped over it, so it doesn't matter that they are different shapes.
Also, has kirk said how much he is selling the roll bars for? i didn't know he was producing them?
Also, think about it the other way around, what evidence is there that they are 119 heads, rather than 117 4 valves? Those covers are not bolted on in place of the 117 4 valve covers, simply capped over it, so it doesn't matter that they are different shapes.
Also, has kirk said how much he is selling the roll bars for? i didn't know he was producing them?
