fvellani

accord...u are making yourself sound like a major spoilt brat

"I have no problem walking into a dealership and paying cash for a $100k+ Mercedes-Benz. I won't lose sleep over it like you would, and obviously the cost of the car is a huge factor for you"

for most people, 100K is a ****load of money, but for u to start insultin people by sayin how rich you are, thats pretty sad, in my opinion

and just for the record, who pays for your cars, you or your dad?

and i personally dont think that the materials in the ls430 are cheap, frankly i think its materials are, at worst, up to par with its german competitors, if not better

the fitment of the panels is measured down to 1/1000th of a millimeter (or an inch im not sure), so everything fits uniformly and tightly...i dont think that happens in a sweatshop

and how can u say for sure that everyone who buys an s430 or s500 isnt concerned with speed? unless you have polled the everybody who has purchased one of those cars, u cannot say that


and dont get me wrong here, i love the s600 i think its an amazing car, but i also think that it is hideously expensive, but then again, i guess the people who have that kind of money dont care about how much it costs...
"Stop bringing up your claim about how I spent extra money on an S-Class when I could have gotten an LS430, because you know what? I have no problem walking into a dealership and paying cash for a $100k+ Mercedes-Benz. I won't lose sleep over it like you would, and obviously the cost of the car is a huge factor for you.
"

S55inPA

hey guys,

in keeping pace with this thread one thing is very evident.
the only way a lexus is superior to a mercedes benz is when the issue of price comes in. in every post supporting lexus it is the most prominent remark supporting lexus. if you were to take out the issue of price what could you really say about any lexus that could convince someone to buy one? reliablility.........hey...news flash...even hundai's are reliable today.
when looking up market at these types of automobiles, i feel that price is not the main focal point of the buyer. sure if your budget keeps you from purchasing a benz....a lexus is a nice 2nd or 3rd choice. like accord said....he has no problems spending 100k on a new vehicle....he just wanted the best!
one more thing....i just jumped over to lexus.com. i never realized that they only manufacture 3 cars that are 100% lexus!
what a joke! the rest are rebadged toyotas!!! now there is a company on the cutting edge....or should i say...rebadging edge!!!

fvellani

if u wanna use that argument, then ALL lexuses are toyotas, as they are all sold under the toyota name in japan and other world markets (i.e. ls430 = celsior, gs300/430= aristo)

and i think that even regardless of price, the ls430 would be a worthy competitor to an sclass

features such as one of the best nav systems in teh industry, the new for 2003 climate controlled seats, the ultra lux pkg (massaging rear seats, seperate climate controls for the rear, ML audio, etc) are very convincing in favour of an ls430

and for alot of people, price is an important factor...
my dad has wanted an ls400 for many years, hes considered the benz, but decided that even if he did have the money for one, it would be a waste to spend it on a slower, cheaper-feeling, common car...in our area, there are many, many people driving s430s and s500s...my dad felt that the extra cash could be used on somethign like a nice vacation for the family, etc.


and lexus does make EXTREMELY reliable vehicles, just look at the jd power reliability index or watever its called...lexus has almost 50% less problems than the industry avg...lexuses will literally run forever...my uncle sold his 1990 ls400, he recently talked to the buyer, he has over 500000 km on the clock, and has experienced no major problems

my dads 96 ls has also had 0 problems, count them, none, zip, zero problems...the only times weve taken the car in for service is for regular maintenance, i.e oil changes, etc.

AndrewEclipse

Ok....sorry to come in a little late on this conversation/debate...but I wanted to put my two cents in as well....


There is no doubt that Lexus is a remarkable car with the best customer satisfaction, etc. Ive personally driven my Uncle's new LS430 (about 2 weeks ago) and had no negative comments about it other than the very bland exterior that doesnt really "distinguish" itself. Its smooth, very good acceleration, nice features, and is without argument, a great value for the money.

Now, Mercedes. AND this is where the true difference is. Sit in a Lexus, close the door and dont turn on the engine. Yeah, its nice, feels comfortable and all that good stuff. Now sit in a Mercedes S500 and shut the door. Its like closing the door to a vault. SOLID. You dont even have to turn on the engine to know this car is on a DIFFERENT level altogether. To those that truly understand engineering and refinement with Luxury, Mercedes is the way to go. Worried about Speed? Well, thats covered too, with a company that starts with A and ends with G . Sure, I understand money is definitely a factor when purchasing an automobile, but there is a reason I would ,and thousands would, spend an extra 30-60K. When driving behind the 3-pointed star, its impossible to ignore that this is innovation not imitation.

lex400sc

Sorry Accord, but that last post of yours made you sound like a total pompous arrogant high-horsed snob----I guess to you that might sound like a compliment. You are what I'll call "the typical Benz owner"... (since us Lexus drivers have already been typified here as old geezers). If all it takes to get $25,000 from you is to convince you that you are a better person because you drive a Benz, then **** I'll follow you around all day and whisper it in your ear for 25 grand! Otherwise, psychologists have come up with the term "insecurity" to describe that mentality.

Other than that, blah blah blah with your new overpriced S600. Let me tell you something about the car enthusiest, the true car enthusiest. Stock power, stock speed, stock acceleration... it only matters to the infamous magazine racer breed. Do you realize that from a power standpoint, you are paying over $30,000 extra to knock less than a second off the S500? I'll make an S500 that will destroy your S600 for that much money, oh, but it doesn't have the coveted S600 badges that you so deeply desire so it doesn't matter still.

If you really want to race an LS430, then I will buy an LS430 and dump the left over $60,000 change into making it a machine beyond your intellectual comprehension. Hell for $60,000 in aftermarket, I'll build an LS430 that will destroy your precious S600, in reverse! So the bottom line is my whole arguement isn't that Lexus is cheaper, it's that Mercedes is grossly overpriced. You guys brag about Mercedes being "performance-oriented", you brag about the flagship models and the limited production models that you don't even own, and all the while you are blind to the fact that you are overpaying for a miniscule performance gain. Besides that, I think performance full-sized sedans are a joke. Make up your mind, if you want performance, buy performance, if you want a luxury family cruiser, buy that. Don't mix both and end up paying out the *** for something that isn't even as fast as a Supra TT or as spacious as an LS430. Oh wait, combine the price of those two aformentioned cars you come out way ahead of the S600! Shocker...

Price is my only arguement for the LS430? Hell no. Pay attention! Lexus makes a better car and sells it at a reasonable price. Define better? Better build, better reliability, better performance, better price, more features, more cabin space, more trunk space, quieter cabin, smoother ride, cheaper aftermarket, yadda yadda yadda.... So far my arguements hold way more weight than yours: (1) money is of no value to me, (2) suede roof liner, suede roof liner! (3) I think MB looks more aggressive even though it's not.

I guess some people are so fanatically obsessed with brand loyalty while at the same time so fearful of competition and the possibility of coming in second place, that they'll come up with the most laughable arguements imagineable to distance themselves from the truth. I mean for God's sakes, how many times did the whole Toyota-Lexus connection come up? WHAT'S THE RELEVANCE!?!!?!? Geez! And "sweatshops" and "cheap materials"--hah, that was a nice fiction! Oh yes, and Mercedes has powered massage seats, and I'm too focused on jocking Mercedes that I overlooked the fact that the LS430 has had them all along? This is truly ridiculous, if Mercedes' body panels are as thick as your heads, then maybe you guys do have a point or two....

Accord

It's actually called enjoying life, and I am doing just that.

Do you realize that I do not care if it is overpriced (which is is not)? Do you know why I am getting a 2003 S600? Because a 500 horsepower vehicle with a Twin-Turbo V12 is very pleasing. I would rather have a stock 2003 S600 than an LS430 with 2000 horsepower. There are many vehicles that can even destroy a 2003 S600. Do I care? No. Brabus makes many modifications for even an S430 that will enable it to kill an S600. Do I care? No. Why? Because it is not an S600. I don't care how much horsepower and brute force that any tuner can throw into a car. Lorinser makes numerous S500's that can kill an S600. I would rather have a stock S600 than a Lorinser S500. We are not talking about tuners here, we are talking about factory stock vehicles. Let me know when Lexus produces a production road car that produced 550hp, and we'll talk.

Like I said above, go build your 2000 horsepower LS430, and I will enjoy my S600 just fine thank you. Mercedes-Benz is not performance oriented, AMG is. Mercedes-Benz produces two performance vehicles (S600 and CL600) whilst AMG handles the performance for the other vehicles.

Please explain to me your logic on why you think somebody should not own a performance sedan that is more luxurious than an LS430... this should be a good one.

Now you're back to talking about the price of a Toyota Supra and a Toyota LS430. Give it a rest.

Yes, price is your only arguement because that is the only thing you continuously talk about. If price was not a factor, the S600 comes out on top, and to people in which price is not a factor, the S600 will infact come out on top. It's that simple. Almost all of the points you listed are false. I know many people who have compromised and bought an LS430 for the sole fact that they are driving the best car that Lexus makes rather than the lowest model offered in the S-Class. This is also where price comes into play. If price isn't a factor, there is no reason why someone would even consider the LS430.

Better build? No, my S600 (and S500) is solid as a rock. There is not one squeak, rattle, or screw up. Every square inch of the car is nothing but absolute perfection.

Better reliability? No, I have never had a problem. Long term reliability/warantee is not a factor because we never keep cars for more than a year or two.

Better performance? No, and don't even try to argue this.

Better price? Yes, although most people who are shopping for a car that can reach prices of $150k are not concerned about price.

More features? No. ABC, Parktronic, Distronic, Tire Pressure Monitoring System, DVD Comand systen (2003), shall I go on? Also, the sport package of the S600 is far superior to the sport package offered on the LS430.

More cabin space? No, the front area is about equal, however there is a substantial amount of more leg room in the rear seats of the S600 opposed to the LS430.

More trunk space? Yes, but who needs that much space? I can already fit three staff bags in my trunk with a lot of room left over. You don't need anymore room than that unless you're a moving company.

Quieter cabin? No, you obviously have never been in an S600. You can hear a pin drop onto the carpet of the floor mats when cruising on the highway it is so quiet.

Smoother ride? No, and again, you obviously have never been in an S600 with ABC and whatnot.

Cheaper aftermarket? Yes, although nearly everyone who buys an S600 do not buy them intending to modify them, so this is not a consideration. The aftermarket for German cars is a lot more expensive than the aftermarket for Japanese vehicles. Although, the aftermarket for Lexus/Toyota is geared toward the ricer crowd, not like the German aftermarket which is performance oriented.

lex400sc

You are sooo lame, first of all, quit twisting my words and making up more lies to look smart. You quote my one statement and then you agree to the exact opposite view point. My guess is you're trying to make it sound like people agree with you??? FYI, it doesn't work on anyone but yourself.

Secondly, quit comparing an S600 to an LS430. Christ can you be anymore pathetic? It's the same as street fighting your twin brother, except you need to use a pair of brass knuckles just to win. Catch my drift? Lexus realizes the market for a $120,000 sedan is way too small because MOST people are smarter than that. Mercedes Benz rakes in sooo much profit off raping you guys on the other cars that they can afford to produce these overpriced marquee sedans. They don't sell many so they probably barely break even on the production and R&D costs.


Third, you are a damn fool for saying money is no object. So quit saying it because no one here agrees with you and it doesn't make you look any more veritable or agreeable. You want a fast *** sedan? Why not an Audi RS6 or even a BMW M5? Those two cars will ice your S600 before you even know what hits you! Both have smaller engines, better mileage, and are cheaper---oops! there's that word again . But money isn't a thing for you since you are a Saudi prince so no one should listen to me and everyone in the world should obey you and buy an S600, right? Either you are so full of yourself that you can't see what an *** you sound like when you say that, or you are just pretending that money is no issue so that you can compare whichever two vehicles you damn well feel like comparing.

lex400sc

LOLOLOL, I just caught this... Here's why you don't know a damn thing about what you're talking about. You have no idea about the potential of Japanese cars. Ricer-oriented?? No, no, no, those are American companies, and American stores perpetuating an American mentality. No German auto maker has ever built a production engine like the RA18, RB26DETT, VG30DETT, 3S-GTE, 3TC-GE, 2JZ-GTE, 20B, 26B, SR20DET, CA18DET, 4G63, I could go on..... These engines commonly break the plane of 1000+ wheel horsepower, often on stock internals. No BMW engine can hold 1000 crank horsepower, let alone wheel horsepower, without blowing rods out of the side. Neither can Mercedes. There are actual private owners around the nation that have 1000rwhps Supras, 1000rwhps RX-7s, 1000awhps R34s, 1000rwhps 300ZXs... I could go on to include Datsuns, old Toyotas (Starlets), Nissans, Mazdas, etc. Japanese are focused on balanced performance with the utmost highest tuneability and potential. This means engines are almost always overbuilt. Germans have everything backwards as hell. Ricer, bah! You need to go back to performance car school before you blow your $115,000 on another poor investment

lex400sc

Breaking a viscous cycle of misinformation, lies, and plain ignorance.

Accord

Quit comparing an S600 to an LS430? Take your own advice, that is what you have been doing throughout this entire thread.

Most people are smart enough to not buy a $120,000 luxury sedan? What planet are you from? The S600 is everything that I could want. Luxury, power, prestige and many other things. You don't get all of that in one package in the M5 or the RS6.

Do you know why the market for a $120,000 luxury sedan is small? Because most people do not make enough money to be able to afford it. This is why the market for ANY high end car is small. Although, you are the all-knowing car enthusiast, so you would have known that, right?

Mercedes-Benz produces 1000 S600's for North America each year, and they sell each one. They are extremely exclusive cars, and unless you live in an upscale section of California or Florida, it is highly unlikely you will see one on the road.

You are a damn fool for not reading my posts. I never said money was not an object, I said it was not a factor when choosing which car to buy. When you are going to quote me, quote me correctly. Don't put words in my mouth.

Why should I choose a different car just because it is a better value when money is not a factor when I choose a car? That is absolute nonsense.

Almost every post you have make on MBWorld (I am not talking about this thread) is very bitter and negative, as if you have a vendetta against Mercedes-Benz owners. You need to lighten up and realize that Lexus is not gods gift to the auto industry.

Go enjoy your almost 8 year old Toyota knowing you got a good deal, and I will enjoy my 2003 S600 and C32 AMG.

Accord

HDS500! Exactly! It's like he is trying to convince everyone that Lexus is the greatest thing since the wheel was invented.

streetburner

Dude japanese cars have no potential at all. The new 2003 S600 will have 550 hp behind that damn engine it will blow any damn import peace of **** away in a heart beat. When I get mine to top it off im gonna have Renntech make it fast as fast as they can make it and money is no object like I told brabus for my ML55. I only by new german made cars only and thats it. Dude I tell very few people what im worth all together but in this case I mise well. My busniesses bring in well over 52 million dollars a year and I see like 6 million a year from that and if your gonna tell me what to buy from it then F**K YOU. What you gonna tell me that im stupid. Look man I work my *** off and so did the rest of these people on these forms to get these nice *** cars and we don't like to be told what to do. So go back to you lexus fourms cause we dont want you here if your gonna dis our vehicles. BABY

JustinTRW

I see this as a pointless thread. People buy the car that makes them most happy. I'd rather have a S600 if I could afford it, plain and simple. Japanese cars ALWAYS have more value, that is how they stay in competition. If you want value, go buy a Camry and be bored, LOL.

S55inPA

to lex400sc,
have you ever driven an s class?
have you ever taken notice to all the different models mb makes?
i've driven every lexus except the new and very ugly es300.
right now mercedes has the edge and they have more product lines. maybe in 50 years lexus will have a full line up of vehicles from entry level autos all the way to ultra luxury...but right now they don't. heck they only have one v8!!!!
so ....admit it....they're a good car for the buck...but nothing very exclusive.
now this isn't misiformation....it's fact.
so...my advice is....go to a mercedes dealer and pick up a new clk or cl500. you'll being saying to yourself....lexus who????

lex400sc

The only reason I am here is because half of you guys fail to acknowledge Lexus as a viable competitor so don't get all butthurt over my being here to speak for the other team. This thread is about comparing the LS to the S-class, correct? Well that is exactly what I'm doing. I'd say we are pretty on-topic for 32 pages deep into a thread, wouldn't you? I'm not here to tell you Lexus is superior. I'm here to tell you that Lexus isn't just a POS company like some of you said it is. I'm telling you the LS430 is a better car than the S430 and the S500.

Anyway, I'll continue to chime in whenever I feel something needs to be said, and the fact that some of you here are whining about me giving you a free education just baffles my mind. You're going to sit here and tell me after reading 32 pages, you aren't a more informed consumer? That you didn't pull anything from this thread? You don't want to hear another perspective? If you haven't for one second looked at things from outside the box or maybe changed your views and attitudes a little about some things after reading this thread, then I'd say you're about as ignorant and bullheaded as they come. I'll be the first to admit that I learned something from this thread: suede roof liner .

KrispyK

You know, considering my decision, I'd have to agree with you there. Even after deciding to purchase the LS430, I've thought it was good alternative to MB (and yes, we can't afford the S-classes if you've missed my earlier posts.) But BMW ... something about those guys really tick me off ... especially with my friends that are completely in love with their M3s, M Coupes and other Bimmers and are so smug in their self-appointed superiority.

S55inPA

i can't speak for anyone else here lx400sc but you haven't changed my opionion at all about lexus or mb. i really am amazed that you have such contempt for the automaker that lexus wishes it could be. oh well.
:o

lex400sc

Salesmen are clowns. They only learn what they need to sell cars. They don't know **** else about anything. I know a few people that went into retail sales and they really don't know what they are talking about, honestly. Don't for one second base a decision on the bull**** salespeople try and feed you. Don't buy into their charts, magazine reviews, etc. Do your own homework and for once, be objective when you go to the Lexus dealership.

BTW, when I went to the Lexus dealership to get my 60,000 mile service, a Lexus salesperson approaches me after the valet pulls my car up to the service entrance. He approaches me while I'm waiting and starts talking to me about my car and how he owns one too. He tries to tell me all this crap about my car and I know this car better than I know my own parents. Long story short, he was a complete idiot when it came to cars.

lex400sc

Don't worry, I didn't have high expectations from you

Accord

LOL, good one .

KrispyK

Haha, the salesman who took my deposit on the 2004 W211 E55 kept insisting that the car would be called the "E66." I pointed out that I'd read from various sources that it'd be called the E55, and it took a quick check with the "AMG" resident expert of the dealership before he believed it would be called the E55!

JFawwaz

you guys are pretty pathetic...

lex400sc didnt prove a point? of course he did! he made more sense than any of you. maybe if you guys got your heads out of the clouds, maybe you would understand what hes trying to say.

vraa

fourms are dead dangit! lol

Not all salesmen are clowns, some of the younger ones are really smart and they really love helping you out.

I don't hink Accord is a spoilded brat when he said that walking into a Benz dealership in search for a car and plopping down 100K USD $ + is a lot for a nice sedan.

I would pay a lot, i will turn my self into a slave if one lets me drive a s600, ask anyone who was in the chat room

marauder

You're confusing engineering ability with marketing ability.

German car buyers, particularly in the luxury brands, want torque. They want their torque and they want it NOW. MB has offered large displacement engines to fill that task. BMW has offered engines which are known for the linear power delivery. In fact, BMW M offers only engines with individual throttle bodies. It's not for show -- it's to improve throttle response. They decided forced induction is not something they want to offer in their cars, because they don't want small torque, turbo lag, or complexity. Lately, AMG has decided to use superchargers in place of the complex high-compression engines that BMW makes. I think it's a smart move, because it offers competitive power and better fuel economy at a very low cost of engineering. It's not that either company couldn't create high power engines -- it's that they didn't.

All of the engines that you listed are fine engines, but I believe that most of them are under 2.0 L and that they're all under 3.0L. This means that out of the box, you don't have the torque of the bigger engines. German car buyers, at least here in the US, usually want larger engines that can put out the high power. However, this does make them an ideal candidate for high pressure forced induction. Obviously, with your knowledge of forced induction, you'd know that an M3's 11:1 compression ratio is simply way too high for anything more than a mild blower. However, the Supra Turbo uses only 8.5:1, which explains why it can take such high boost.

If you challenged BMW or Mercedes to create an engine with similar specifications to the Supra's engine, don't you think they could do it? Just because BMW and Toyota make a 3.0L inline-6 doesn't mean that they had the same objectives when they built them. Just because it's not manufactured or sold doesn't mean that it can't be created. Marketing has WAY more swing in a company than any of us would like. We want cars that are designed by engineers, not by bean counters, but that's not how it works in business. MB and BMW, among others, have decided that small displacement, high boost engines are not what their buyers want.

If you want to pull out all the stops and see what sheer engineering prowess can do, BMW is fielding what's often considered to be the most powerful F1 engine. That's truly an example of where rules are set and everyone (engineering and marketing) wants to achieve the same objective: to win. Ferrari is leading by a landslide, but BMW and Mercedes are rounding out the podium.

vraa

*slap* wake up man! lol, have u read the entire thread.. lol

also.. do u like my pimp mobile!