marauder

I'm a huge fan of BMWs, but I know that they aren't bulletproof. My car had to be taken in for a new differential -- manufacturing tolerance problem that affected many 2001 M Coupes and Roadsters, apparently. But they replaced it under warranty, didn't give me any problems about it, and gave me a loaner car for the period. As you said, the engine is a true gem and the handling is excellent. Unfortunately, they have some controversial designs coming out and that may dissuade many buyers, but they're still very well engineered throughout. MB on the other hand is just dishing out one gorgeous car after another.

marauder

What's a 2002 M3 TT?

KrispyK's reference to "BMW mentality" is a friendly jab toward me personally (as I know he suffers from "MB mentality"), but the truth is that their arseholes in every crowd -- guaranteed. So I'm sorry you had to put up with a mindless zealot, no matter what they were preaching. But a handful of personal stories isn't gonna convince anyone save yourself.

But let's give credit where credit's due -- BMW engineers a fine car. It may not be what MB or Lexus owners want, but it's what a certain demographic wants. Cutting out the posers, yuppies, and wealthy old men, BMW outperforms both Lexus and MB for comparable cars. Looking at Nordschleife times, the Z8, M3, M5, and M Coupe all outperform the CLK55 and the E55. I'm eager to see if MB can leapfrog past BMW with the new set of supercharged engines (anyone have the SL55's Nordschleife time?). I'm not saying that BMW is the best car manufacture in the world -- they're certainly not infallible and don't make THE best car in the world. I'm just saying that you should give credit where credit is due. You cite a couple of stories, but no real, factual evidence. Nothing wrong with subjective opinion, but I'd like to hear what else you can offer.

Besides, if the car didn't jump start, it could simply have been a dead battery. My Honda's battery died after 4 years of service. No reason why a >7 year old car wouldn't have the same problem. The BMW batteries are supposedly maintenance free, but many experiences show that this may not be the case.

marauder

I'll offer one more datapoint:

I can't even find any Nordschleife data on this forum! On this forum, "Nordschleife" is mentioned only twice, including in my post! And on ClubLexus.com, it's only mentioned once. On the BMW M5 board alone, it's mentioned dozens of times. (Krispy K had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned it )

This is a perfect example of the difference between BMW demographics and MB and Lexus demographics. BMW owners are very interested in great laptimes on the track (they track their cars hard) and great performance on the street -- so BMW designs, builds, and tests their cars the same way. Lexus and MB owners are only moderately interested in street performance and track performance is nearly foreign to them. They don't really seem to care, and that's fine. The manufacturers are smart for not concentrating their efforts in design and engineering on things that their potential customers aren't going to care about. So say what you will about BMW vs the other two, but realize that they're tapping a totally different market than either of those two.

vraa

i hope your not saying the indian community as a whole.. because in down south houston.. we're all about our benz's! lol.. well now we are n e ways.. lol

to me i think bmw's look fantastic.. same with many of the benz's.. but lexus.. sure its artsy and stylish but.. uhh.. lets just say for me it doesn't fit.. but kudos to lexus for gettin one of my friends to love their sc430..

she was saying.. i like the beatle but its old. i like this new lexus car.. its kinda bubbly and stuff.. its got those really cool looking wheels things..

remember tho.. she knows nothing about cars. i was surprised she knew what a lexus was! lol

Fuzzo

i really haven't read this but I thougt I would post this on here...

Accord

I was waiting for someone to post that.

Fuzzo

you can al\ways count on me

marauder

Oh, I knew that was coming sooner or later.

KrispyK

That's right. Is "controversial" another word for "butt-ugly?" Gotta say, MB is putting out some beautiful sheetmetal lately ... but I am a tad concerned that the radio-cluster in the new W211 looks too much like the BMW radio cluster. Can't have the bimmer look in our beautiful cars!

KrispyK

I beg to differ ... I think the new W211 E55 will be the best balance of performance handling and comfort. But at least we're keeping it in the family.

vraa

*rubs fuzzo* mmm.. don't u like that?! lol

KrispyK

What does history matter if they put out a crappy car right now? I'm not saying that the S-class isn't an outstanding vehicle -- just that history is irrelevant. A classic example: Ford's got as much history as any auto manufacturer -- far more than BMW or Lexus, but who on here wants to go out and purchase a Taurus or a Lincoln LS? For that matter, BMW put out that first ugly little 2002 (in my opinion ... let Marauder disagree) what, 20-30 years ago? Since then they've grown to put out awesome examples of cars such as the M-cars and other splendid vehicles. The lack of a long-distinguished *automotive* history has certainly not hurt them in their sales or engineering. We're not talking about violins here, where the strads made hundreds of years ago reign supreme -- we're talking about the forefront of technology.

If you want to get into more MB history, they also made Hitler's car. Is that the **** "history" we're paying for? Until the late 60's, MB had no presence in the U.S., where Cadillacs and Lincolns reigned supreme. Shouldn't we now be paying for GM and Lincoln's "history?" For that matter, BMW produced aircraft engines used to shoot down our own boys during WWII. I don't know Toyota's/Lexus' history and in the end, I don't really care. Nor do I care about MB or BMWs history (as I am both an owner and a strong fan of Mercedes). The people who participated in these shameful events are no longer around, and in essence, they're completely different companies.

I'm not debating the merits of these cars in this post ... just the fact that it's laughable to "pay for the history" of Mercedes or any other manufacturer. If tomorrow Hyundai puts out a car that blows away any MB, BMW, or Lexus, (as unlikely as that scenario is) you can bet I'll become a Hyundai customer.

I am a big fan of Mercedes-Benz because I think they put out the best cars right now, and their technology is unbelievable. Go test drive an E500, and you'll see exactly what I mean -- they've hit yet another benchmark in terms of handling performance and comfort. The look and feel of the car completely justifies, in my mind, paying $10-$15k more than a GS430, and this is also why I've got a deposit down for a W211 E55. But I don't think of MBs history as being the justification. Which is also why I'm purchasing an LS430 for my parents -- it's the best car for what they need at the price I want. To each their own ...

S55inPA

hey fuzzo,
your ****ed up for posting that photo. obviously you have no respect for yourself or anyone else.
get a life.
and to everyone else here.....isn't this supposed to be an auto discussion?

KrispyK

I agree. That's a hurtful and insensitive picture, and completely irrelevant to our discussion.

vraa

he just meant to introduce a tad bit of humour into the discussion.. every one knows fuzzo is agianst discrimination.. i mean.. they let me rub them for gosh sakes! lol

btw.. when i say history i don't mean stuff like that.. i meant by prestige and such.. the car's been there for longer than the other so its been able to stand the test kind of thing..

like the 100 year test of a book. if it lasts longer then 100 years that means its amazing no?

Also please please stop inputtin dirty thoughts like hyundai beating lexus bmw or benz.. u are a dirty dirty naughty man! lol

KrispyK

Hey, I'm Korean-American, and I hold onto the hope that one day my ethnic brethren will deliver a car superior to those of the Japanese and Germans. However, I guess reality is something else -- my buddy wanted to get a free "Lord of the Rings DVD" and so we went to test drive a Kia Optima the other day. The instrument cluster and transmission broke down during the test drive. Of a brand-new car.

No matter what we debate about MBs, Lexuses, or Bimmers, I have yet to have taken one of those cars out on a test drive and have had anything BREAK.

vraa

u know.. its kinda bad when u test drive a car and something BREAKS on you.. lol

1SICKLEX

Damn, those AMG models are too hot.....drool........The one with the multi-piece wheels with the rivets is AWESOME...

"A real man's car" LMAO......

Enough with the bashing of the dude with the controversial pic, stop acting like the POPE here. Everyone here has done and does dirt.

This IMO has been a GREAT discussion.


https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ighlight=lexus (hmmmmmmmm)

vraa

do u like my pope pimp mobile? lol

KrispyK

You shoulda seen the look on the salesguy's face when we told him that the speedo was stuck at 30 mph and the tach was stuck at 2K. In fact, I looked over at the tach and at first thought it had a really high idle. Until I realized the blinkers weren't blinking, the speedo was saying 30 when we were at a stop. Then the car wouldn't shift beyond 2nd gear. All in a brand-new car. I really felt sorry for the salesguy who started stuttering about how this was an exception and how reliable the cars generally are, and then started talking about the price. Poor guy!

KrispyK

You know, before I checked out the S, Lexus and 745i, I also took a look at a Jaguar S-type. I don't like the way the XJS or X-type look, but I thought the S-type looked quite classy. It drove OK, but it was nothing outstanding, and didn't elicit any strong reactions from me. Capable, but nothing special.

What does the rest of the forum think of Jaguars? Kinda curious to see if there's similar passion for/against Jaguars as we've seen with regards to Lexus and Bimmers.

lex400sc

Recent ClubLexus thoughts on Jags...
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/show...threadid=56703

Accord, despite all that time and effort posting S-class pictures, I can honestly say that none of those pictures you posted inspired anything from me . The S-class looks so awkward from those shots, they actually look better in person than from those professional photo shoots. The LS430 pictures on the other hand were gorgeous to the point where I had to save them on my computer . I'm no Lexus fanatic, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of beautiful Benzos. Namely the coupes: SL, CL, and old CLK. But it amazes me how one-track you are to say that the Fabulous Celsiors look butt ugly. Those are some of the sweetest looking sedans I've ever seen. But I guess some can't appreciate the VIP styling. Oh well, on to the pics...

Siiiick...

lex400sc

marauder

BMW has way more history than 30 years ago when BMW NA was created. There are many classic shapes, including the 507, which is what the BMW Z8 is based upon, and the 328, among many others. Unfortunately, Mercedes was favored by Adolf Hitler over BMW and other marques, giving MB prestige as it was preferred by the Fuhrer. With Hitler's backing, MB and Auto Union received plenty of money to develop their cars throughout and after the war. MB is blessed with a very colorful tradition of buildling fine cars as a result. Unfortunately for BMW, their factories laid in ruins and were severely restricted from manufacturing, because of a three year moratorium imposed by the Allies on building airplanes and rockets. BMW started as an aircraft engine manufacturer, so it was heavily affected. It wan't until the 70s that BMW actually recovered financially.

Anyway, KrispyK is right -- history doesn't matter so much if you're gonna turn out crappy cars. "Prestige" is something that isn't what you think. It's what OTHER people think. You buy it because of what other people think about you owning it! So it's worthless when you're ripping through that corner, the tail hanging out slightly, and slamming that shifter back into 2nd gear. If you bought a car because its racing history contributes to a better product, then it did you some good. If you bought a car because of its "prestige," you're a victim of marketing. Look at the car and judge it for what it is, not what it represents.

lex400sc

Auto Couture, you've done it again!!