KrispyK

Absent, I concur with you 100%.

Accord

I guess it just depends on the dealership, I can goto my dealership without notice and get my car detailed, washed, and serviced within a few hours.

KrispyK

You're right; it does depend on the dealership. I hadn't thought to call Manhattan Mercedes-Benz, the only factory-owned MB dealership in the U.S., figuring that if the Northern Jersey dealers were this booked, that Manhattan Mercedes, in the thick of the city, would similarly be booked. I gave them a call today, and they told me to bring the car down by 3:30PM, and they'd diagnose the check engine light ... for free! I took it down, and they also pointed out that I was missing a screw in the underdash, offered to order it for me, and in the end, I just paid for the screw which is coming in over night. Didn't have to pay $100 for five minutes of work like what the other dealerships were demanding. Most excellent service, I must say.

In the spirit of this thread, I'm going to call at least three local Lexus dealerships (including Manhattan Lexus) and see what the wait times for diagnosing a check-engine light are. I know, it's not a scientific survey, heck, it probably doesn't even meet the requirements for being a survey, but who knows what the results will be?

Chan

Yeah its always on the dealer for service.

I switched dealerships about 3times before settling on one that I like. I started at Tustin Lexus(Hated it), Westminster Lexus(Started good but went downhill) and now I drive an hr to Longo Lexus which has the best damn service and aftermarket mod policy out there

MB has the name and that would be my only reason to buy one. As I said earlier, I was looking into a C32 and still don't understand why MB went backwards and went with a V configuration. I don't really understand why they're still using SOHC...emissions issue?

FC Corp

As a result, regardless of this and that, the MB, especially the 600, demands and receives respect from ALL social classes of life.

The Lexis? No, I don't think so.

absent

In summary:LS430-better value
S500/600-better car if money no object.

marauder

Here we go again ... over-engineered is not the same as well-engineered. The Japanese market looks for cars that can be fit with lots of aftermarket parts, so it's not uncommon to see MANY fine Japanese engines that can handle a whole lot of power -- way more than the stock rating on the car. The Supra block is an excellent example of a bulletproof engine block that can take everything you throw at it.

Just because it wasn't designed for extreme durability doesn't mean that it's a poor design or can't be built for incredible durability. They're just not the same thing. If you are looking for examples of engines that can take such power, there is an S52 M Coupe engine that does 600 hp. And there's an E39 M5 that's doing roughly 600 hp -- it's still being tested. It doesn't prove anything, though ... I mean, if the Lexus cupholders are stronger than the MB ones, does it mean that they have better engineering? Or just that they overbuilt them?

I'm not sure what you mean by that comment ... Did I miss something? You're not proposing that MBs are sportier, more performance oriented machines than BMWs for comparable cars, are you?

Accord

BMW sent a letter to a lot of E46 M3 owners telling them not to bring the car to redline, not take turns hard, etc. They said it will cause extreme premature wear and can result in engine failure and other problems. I know people who have AMG's which are driven hard every day and have over 150,000 miles on them.

Mercedes-Benz vehicles are not sportier than BMW's, however most of the AMG's are.

Chan

I wouldn't say the E46 M3 was a well engineered car...I think about 50 of them blew their engines stock.

The 2JZ family of engines are over-engineered and also well engineered for N/A. Do remember that this a 10yr old engine and 225hp was very good back then. 0-60 and MPG would improve drastically if they swapped out the iron block for an aluminum but that would F the whole over-engineering process up....

Now would someone please explain to me why MB went backward to V6? Just don't tell me they make more power on it cause I can already see that
I want to know what advantages besides space saving V6s have over I6s.

Accord

They never went backwards, they have always used V6's. The engine is a tuned version of the C320's engine, not a completely new engine.

KrispyK

With regard to the V/I6 debate, I think Chan is referring to the I6 that used to be used in 320 models, i.e., the '96-'97 E320's. '98 was the first year for the new "Modular V6/V8" as the V8 in the E420, S420, etc., were also replaced with the 430 engine. Using a V-6 apparently allows the simplification of the manufacturing process since they also build a similar V-8.

At the time, I recall talking to an MB tech, who was disappointed with the new engines. Told me something about how the M119 4.2 Liter V8 was bulletproof, was used in some race vehicle for some 24 hour race (don't think it was Le Mans, but could have been) twin-turboed to 600 bhp and was reliable the whole time. Don't remember his arguments, but he said the new 3-valve/cylinder engines were just another step in MB's cost cutting, and man, he almost sounded pissed about it.

Fact of the matter is, MB's philosophy has changed. No longer can they let the engineers solely dictate what products are sold; the bean counters have a huge say. You can thank Lexus for that. Cost has become a bigger issue, and even MB must now cut costs where they can. In my opinion, I think MB is in a transitionary phase, still, and will work out their reliability issues, etc., and continue to make fine vehicles. And that will only get Lexus/BMW to improve their vehicles. In the end, we all get fine cars. Ain't capitalism a grand thing??

marauder

I presume you're talking about this letter? The letter doesn't say anything of the sort. It just says:
a) the M3 requires proper maintenance
b) proper break-in is a must
c) premium gasoline is required
d) the engine must be warmed up before romping on it

The letter promotes proper care of the car -- it doesn't discourage redline or to take turns hard as you suggest, unless you have a letter somewhere that I haven't seen. I'm sure other M3 owners would love to see it. The M3 is certainly seeing its share of problems, but it's still too early to tell what the problems are. I have the same exact engine as the E46 M3 and no other M Coupes or M Roadsters are seeing the problems that the M3 guys are seeing. So what's the problem? Lots of owners are dying to know ...

I think it's pretty clear that BMWs are definitely sportier than MBs for comparable cars. MB seems to have greater hp for their offering over BMW, but track times show time and time again that BMW turns in a better time. AMGs will probably outperform most garden variety BMWs, but the M versions are the ones that are the fair comparison. The SL55 is a sure winner, but it's not a sports car -- it's an autobahn cruiser. It sure isn't a challenger to, say, a 360 Modena or even a 550/575. Once again, if anyone has a time for the SL55, I'd love to know how it performs on Nordschleife. MB doesn't really pretend to make a sports car either ... they're shooting for the market that wants a luxury car first and some oomph second. It makes for an outstanding combination. BMW simply shoots for a slightly difference mix that emphasizes the performance a bit more.

KrispyK

I have a close friend with an M3, and he hasn't received such a letter. And I do know of several E36 M3 owners (I don't think the E46's have been out long enough to know of any E46 owners with that many miles yet) with 100k+ miles on them with no issues.

I think when one compares an AMG vis a vis the M-division Bimmers, the M cars are more geared towards the track. The AMGs, of course, ar emuch more exclusive: only 500/year as opposed to generally more M's. Nevertheless, until AMG offers a manual or an F1-type tranny, if I were to take a vehicle to the track, I'd take an M5 or an M3 any day.

Having said that, other factors come into play when buying a car, and in the end, I'll be getting an E55.

KrispyK

Yes, "Lexis" doesn't get as much respect these days because apparently Westlaw is becoming the preferred legal database, or so I've been told. Sorry, couldn't resist, bad bad joke. Wasn't a joke to Lexis-Nexis though ... when Lexus was launched, Lexis-Nexis filed suit for trademark dilution, if I'm not mistaken.

FC Corp, you should work for the MB marketing department. "Demands and receives" respect? Nicely put! Nevertheless, I will have to disagree with you there. I've got several Israeli friends who detest MBs and would never purchase one, for somewhat obvious reasons. I've know some young well-educated folks from Germany who tell me MBs are for "new money, low-class" people. And if you watch the truly rich folks in the U.S., we're talking Rockefeller-level here, you'll see they don't drive MBs either. And how does one respect a car anyway?

I personally am a fan of MB, but I'm not deluded into thinking that the car demands/receives respect. I buy cars because I enjoy driving them. I can get my respect without a car.

marauder

Nicely put!

Accord

I remember reading the letter a while back on DTMPower, it wasn't the same letter that you posted above, marauder.

Chan

Finally an answer. I do know that a V6 is cheaper to manufactor than an I6...well at least I think so....I find an I6 to be more "luxurious" than a V6.

Reasons? Well here are a few:

None of that V6 gargling crap
Better feel of power(Well at least I feel its better)
Naturally balanced

marauder

The M3 has their share of problems, just like every other car, and everyone's been a bit disappointed in BMW's ability to deliver some answers, but let's try to keep the misinformation to a minimum. Accord, I believe you when you say you saw some sort of letter, but I don't trust the post.

A manufacturer, especially BMW, would *never* send out a car telling people not to drive their cars hard. If anything, they would simply void warranties for "abused" cars. Audi/VW has been known to do this in the past. Can you imagine if even Camry owners got letters from Toyota saying that you shouldn't brake very hard?

BMW as a company has been way more encouraging of their owners to drive their cars like they were meant to be driven than most other companies. The BMW M school is an example of that! Imagine picking up your vehicle in South Carolina and driving your pick of the M cars, driving them through car control courses, autocrosses, a road course, and just cruising around in *their* cars. After all that, you get to drive your own car home. You can sign up for an extended M school and pay for it separately.

KrispyK

Man, that car testing thing almost makes me want to buy a Bimmer. I guess we all have our moments of weakness, eh?

FC Corp

Ok, calm down now. I said the CAR demands respect, did not mention anything about the driver.

marauder

Moment of weakness? Nah, it's a stroke of genius!

KrispyK

Hey, buddy, stick to the topic of the thread! We're discussing S-class v. LS430 here, and I don't see Bimmer mentioned anywhere! Always got to stick their head in somehow, them Bimmer guys, I swear ...

(Before anyone thinks I'm flaming him, Marauder and I are close friends in real life ... but not that close because he drives a Bimmer. :P)

Dema

It's interesting. I also saw threads where were discussed LS430 vs Q45 and Infiniti won. In another thread Q45 compared to Cadillac DTS and former won. So, should we compare S with DTS?

KrispyK

Out of curiosity, how does a car demand respect? Does it have a sign saying "Respect me?" Or is it the fact that the vehicle is so expensive that it should be respected? Does that mean if I'm rich I walk around demanding respect? And shouldn't respect be freely given instead of demanded?

Sorry to be nitpicking, but I take issue with the way people use the word "respect" these days. I fully appreciate and enjoy MB vehicles; I'm sure we agree that MBs are fine automobiles. But respect them? Nah. Not me.

KrispyK

Hey get the Infiniti and Cadillac folks here, and let's just compare 'em all! I think it could be sort of cool to have a section devoted to all the top luxury makes ... let the arguing begin!

By the way, recently I got a ride in an '03 Town Car; didn't get to drive it but I have to say, at least from the backseat, the car handled much much better than previous models. Shall we compare that to MBs as well?