Nevada Jack

Oh really... What did you expect in a forum called MBWorld and a thread devoted to the best production luxury car in the world, the S550.

Toyota (Lexus) has to try and convince the automotive world that their LS is equal to the S550/S600 and the writer of the review does not feel they have. I think you will find that true with most contributors here.

Nyyankees3511

No disrespect MB, please dont take it that way. Lets just say the LS is a huge improvment and it does offer things that others dont. Nevada You may think the S is the best production luxury car in the world but it possibly may not be. Many people said the same thing about the last gen S and the LS clearly beat it in many reviews. I will have to look at the LS and S closely to see which one i like better, but let me tell you your pics look great!!!! So far i like the interior of the LS better while the S isnt too bad. Good Luck with your car!

NdnMbLova

Damn Fanatic your on top of your game!
Callin out all the desi's

Nevada Jack

I think at this point in time most reviewers and car media people have indicated that the S550 is the best luxury car in the world. Whether the new LS will change that is yet to be written.

Don't confuse the W220 with the W221 in assessing the two cars. The W221 is miles ahead of the 220 in build, technology and quality...over 6 months for my car and over a year worldwide in use and the praise continues to flow. I think once you get comfortable with the interior of the S and see how it's clean, uncluttered look blends with the quality of the materials, you may begin to like it. But the ride and performance is where the pure satisfaction is...with ABC and the Multicontour seats, it is a ride not matched. Sound like the brochure doesn't it...:-) Give it a good shake and buy the one that makes you the happiest.

Thanks for the kudos on the pics...I appreciate that.

Nyyankees3511

No problem Nevada i have always loved white and most of my cars are white. Great choice. I dont think the interior is ugly, its not. It probably one of the best along with the LS. I dont like BMW interiors but thats me. If i had the money id go out and buy a S550 amg package white on black and a LS460L same color combo but thats a dream.

zam2000

At the ClubLexus forum, there's a Lexus fan (talking about big time Lexus fan here, he's some sort of moderator). He went on and test out the three car that Lexus have at the demo: S550, 750IL, and LS460.

Suprisingly, his conclusion is very much like yours: the S550 is head and shoulder above the LS460: look, presence, power, and handle (though he thinks the 750IL has the best handling). He also conclude that the LS brake really suck. Basically, he conclude that the S550 radiates class & presence, and make you want to drive, while the LS460 is just a big nice sedan.

THe only difference is that he think the 750IL style is horrible, shouldn't be a shock to most people.

MB Fanatic

Hmm Zam, you have a link for that review over at CL?

I too would agree that the 750li has a somewhat crude design, it handles like its on rails though and has a huge rear seat which is a bonus. The model refresh did help from the 745li though, just needs some more work.

AsianML

There you go!! You see? Not al Lexus owners are *****s either. I kind of find the bias on this forum a bit ridiculous. I'm a bit biased myself, everyone knows that. I can be the worlds biggest MB fan at times, everyone knows that.

But I will give credit where it's due. In only 17 years time, Lexus has carved it's own niche in the automotive world. Sure they haven't had a lot of innovations, but in a world, where it's hard to innovate anything at all, I have to give them credit. In only 17 years, they've created the new LS, which is supposedly one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world (save your witty remarks).

MB may have had more innovations in their first 17 years, but think about it. What competition did they have? How many innovations were there to be made?

In terms of *****yness: BMW > MB > Lexus.

Now, back to my MB!!!!

Nevada Jack

There competition was the entire luxury car industry

Over the last 17 years there have probably been more innovations in the automobile industy than in 20-or 30 years before. Are you saying there were a limited number of innovations to be made Engineers do not work to a number of innovations, they put their minds to work and create. And the key ones have probably been made by MB. When someone else does the engineering and design, the copiers only have to fabricate their version, taking JD Powers into consideration first of course. Enough...MB leads and the rest just follow....

AsianML

I meant MBs first 17 years. Like in the early 1900s. What competition did they have? They might've had some competition then, if you could call it that.

The market is too saturated these days. Kill off some manufacturers!!!!

zam2000

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244783

In case it's not viewable, here's some snap of the review


...Well, I just got home from a wonderfully stimulating afternoon of gawking at and driving cars.

Here's some of my thoughts.

First off, Lexus did a wonderful job and had enough cars that the lines to drive them weren't excessively long. The entire affair was handled with polish and class. Kudos to Lexus for an entertaining and informative afternoon.

Lexus LS 460 - Very much the "big brother" to our car. Nice but not drop dead "holy cow, I can't believe it" nice. Very fast, nicely balanced and pretty flat through s-curves. On the negative side, the throttle is still very non linear with small changes corresponding to either no change in power or massive "throw you back in the seat" acceleration; the brakes, too were very notchy and "grabby" with small moduations in pressure causing unpredictable and overly aggressive braking. All in all the drivetrain was a major dissappointment in it's lack of harmony and linkage. As this is clearly present in our cars (the ES) one begins to think that Lexus just can't get engines and tranny's to link together properly.

M-B S 550 - WOW!!! Both inside and out, this car radiates class and elegance. Literally everything about it pretty much screams "in this car you have reached the pinnacle of automotive sophistication and refinement." Everything looks like quality and radiates good taste. Awesome, simply awesome. The engine is incredibly torquey (sp?) and it feels like the ability to accelerate is limitless. Power delivery is entirely linear with the degree to which the accelerator is pressed and there is no hesitation whatsoever when you push the gas pedal. Power delivery is immediate with your right foot, the accelerator pedal and the drivetrain all feeling as if they are governed by one mind. Very impressive! The transmission is as smooth as fresh butter and you never feel any shift points at all. On the negative side, the car is heavy and the front end doesn't respond to rapid direction changes as nimbly as the Lexus. There is very little body lean, however and the car maintains a nice neutral posture thru s-curves. The steering is positively awful. The steering wheel is too big and feels like a Mack truck it's so heavily weighted. All this comes at a price (what doesn't?). $86k is what you'll need to bring one of these home.

BMW 750 - This is one seriously ugly car. And you know what? It gets even worse (if that's possible) when you get in. The interior looks cheap and as if it's ergonomics (I admittedly use the term loosely) were designed by a psychotic, retarded person. Buttons and knobs are strewn everywhere with little or no apparent planning. The button to adjust seat position is mindlessly placed on the side of the center stack by your right knee. Buttons are everywhere and you don't even want to get me started on the mind nubbingly dumb-assed "I-Drive" system. It's all a design and ergonomic nightmare. Chris Bangle should be shot for the exterior but whoever "designed" (again, I use the term loosely as this thing doesn't appear so much designed as thrown into some cosmic blender and put together based on whatever spilled out) the interior should be given to Saddam Hussein's kids (if they were still alive, but I guess you get my point). Now onto something a bit more pleasant. The car drives like a dream. As with the M-B, there is total harmony between the engine, transmission and accelerator pedal. Power delivery is immediate and the thing is a rocket ship. There is essentially no body lean and it handles like a slot car. Pretty impressive for a 4500 lb. vehicle. There is simply nothing bad to say about the driving dynamics of this champ. If you could get by it's "Ugly Betty" appearance and hideous interior, this is a killer car. And a steal at "only" $74k.

Lexus SC 430 - Ughhh! Who buys this thing? It looks like an upside down bathtub. It's proportions are all wrong and it's cramped inside. It's not terribly fast and it handles like a Cunard ocean liner. I simply don't know what to say. This baby is just a joke.

Lexus GS 450h - OK, I'm on record as saying that I despise the hatchback appearance of the GS and I stick to that. And the interior is cramped. I couldn't car less about any dimensions that Lexus publishes that say that this is as roomy (or roomier) than the ES...it's not! You feel confined and claustrophobic. It's interior is quite spartan, perhaps taking its lead from it's target demographic, the BMW 5 Series. It's instrumentation is very nice, however and thankfully there are just enough buttons and knobs to control everything that needs to be controlled on a regular basis. You say you want power? Well, let me tell you, have you come to the right place! If the BMW 750 is a rocket ship (and it is), this thing is an anti-missile missle. This thing is frighteningly fast. This must be what driving a Ferrari is like (well, maybe not quite, but close). In very unLexus-like fashion, power delivery is pretty much immediate and the car feels like it could take off with another millimeter or two of accelerator travel. The chassis is as flat as a carpenter's level and it handles s-curves with complete composure and confidence. This thing is like driving a go cart at a carnival. Except it's much bigger, has a roof and goes a whole lot faster. Oh, and it costs just a little more too ($62k). The brakes are a little notchy in reassuringly Lexus-like fashion (what's the problem here guys, you can get this right...you really need to work on this..."Relentless Pursuit of Perfection" huh?...well you have some work to do here) and you have to be very careful modulating them or they grab way too hard, a characteristic seen on just about every Lexus vehicle. If Lexus wants to know how to do brakes right, they should just copy whatever M-B is doing because, let me tell you, they have it dead solid perfect.

OK, end of rant, er, I meant review.

MB Fanatic

Thanks for the link Zam. Much appreicated.

1via

What the hell does that have to do with anything even remotely related to this topic??

People may like to dismiss japanese cars as being cookie cutter econoboxes, however, where you might find distasteful styling and mediocre performance, others find reliability and affordability. Japanese and, increasingly, Korean brands will pummel you into the ground with sales and sheer numbers.
There is a lot to be said for traditional "luxury" brands like MB, BMW, etc. but when you have a juggernaut like toyota pressuring the traditional brands, it doesn't help to be dismissive or elitist. lol
I think that this market will change a lot in the future due to market and competitor pressures, for better or worse.

I will be observing with interest.

Germancar1

The same guy is a poster on Edmunds where I spend most of my time.

M

Germancar1

It really doesn't matter, they invented the horseless carriage in the first place, that was all the innovation anyone could ever, ever want. As far as competition there was some others on the scene just a few years later, but MB was first. Enough said.

M

IanGreening

Germancar1, do you like living way out in Aurora? Heard some nasty stories about the gang problem out there.

abh11570

Saw a LS 460 on the road today. Goldish color. I apologize earlier for saying that it looked quite good in the dealer lot. Today I change my mind. Althought the car may be advanced, I really dont think that the shape can last its production lifeline. It lookes quite bland. I compare this to when I see another S class on the road. Even though I have one, when I see another on the road, it amazes me how big the 07 S class looks. It looks awesome. Even my 3 year old yells out " Daddy S class, S class !".

I dont think my Daughter would ever yell out " LS , daddy LS". Its quite bland on second thought.

Germancar1

Oh yes, I love it. I'm right by Fox Valley Mall, the East Side of Aurora. It is very much different from the central part of Aurora. The area I'm in was considered Naperville until a court battle came out in Aurora's favor. I'd always heard stories about Aurora's problems too, but I don't live in that area, and overall the whole town is pretty quiet now. The East side of Aurora is growing with new homes and businesses daily and is nothing like what you've likely seen on a TV news reel. Naperville ($$$) wanted this area, but lost in court.

M

Germancar1

Yeah the LS is too slab sided and has too many broad expanses of unadorned sheetmetal to look good. Mercedes realized this could be a problem with the new S so they added the wheel arches to break up the monotony. The front of the LS is particular Toyotaish with nothing that says luxury car. Lexus' "stylists" still aren't up to MB/Audi capability. The A8 and S rule this segment when it comes to looks.

M

AsianML

innovations and such. Considering MB had almost no competition back then, any innovation they made was very significant.

Compare to now when you have over a hundred companies that you have to compete against to come up with innovations first, and to make them good.

Anything Lexus makes, is small compared to MB.

Nevada Jack

I definitely agree...today a neighbor pulled up across the street with a new car. I said damn, that's a new LS based on my seeing the pictures of it. On closer examination, it turned out to be an Avalon! Now MB has a style but there is no problem telling a S Class from a C or E Class...

Nyyankees3511

I though the LS looked great. It all depends on the color, check it out in black. The front of the S reminded me of the 2004 LS when i first saw it but it has grown on me. Give it a chance.

TeutonicCarFan

Hello all, new user here. I have been reading most of the threads on the w221 forum and the new ML63 forum, mostly because I feel they are the best two cars in their respective segments. MB had it wrong IMO with the old ML but this new one has a seductive style with the power to match. The new S is the best saloon available, although I am a bit sad they went with the 7-series style interior, as I am a fan of the classic A8 interior. Regardless, we are here to talk about the new LS and here is my opinion:
I have not has the pleasure of seeing the new LS however my insight pertains to the actual Lexus owner his/herself. A very good friend of mines father does very well for himself and is an automobile enthusiast, when he was younger owned some MBs including SLs. You wouldn't know that now because he has 5 Lexuses (Lexi as I like to say, 2LX470s, GX470, RX400h, SC430) in his driveway (sort of jealous bc my friend drives a brand new GX470, not my car of choice but a nice one regardless). The point I am getting at is that although Lexus does not make a car that can stand up to the w221, that is not who they are marketing to. They perhaps want to get into the w221 market share but they are also marking to different people, like my friends dad. At this point in his life now he doesn't want a big flashy S-class, he wants a soft, plush, quiet, unassuming car. As part time work I detail at a Land Rover dealership and I was trying to get my friends dad into a R.Rover. He conceded it was a nice car, perhaps nicer than his LXs, but he didn't want a big opulent vehicle to drive around town in. Perhaps Lexus wants to cater to the crowd who wants a luxury vehicle but doesn't want to stand out as much as S-class or 7-series owners. Someone who wants a more stealth luxury saloon? Only my 2 cents.

Germancar1

That theory does have some validity and I've seen that mentioned before. I just don't see paying 60-80K for a car and not care about how it looks and I think that is most folks, IMO. Though I can certainly understand those who feel otherwise.

M

carsinamerica

Some good points in the review, but I'm going to quibble as well. I see that the LS might not be right for you, but the rest of you shouldn't assume that this makes the LS right for nobody except the needlessly stingy.

For the complaint about too many buttons: I LIKE buttons. Just from the geeky side, I like the look of a dash with plenty of switchgear, and I've never seen a car with too many buttons. In fact, aesthetically, I think that M-B went too far with the W221. It's very clean inside, that's true, but I felt it was too empty (Honest: I sat down inside and thought, 'why all the unused space?'). That's just my sense of what a car interior should be. But, to consider the practical side, I can learn button locations very quickly, and not shift eyes from the road. I loathe MMI/iDrive/Comand systems for trying to lump too many functions into too little space. Now, BMW is probably the worst offender on that score, but I think M-B is trying to do too much with Comand, too.

I also agree with the poster who mentioned a floor shifter. I wouldn't want to be without one. It preserves a link to the standard transmission, and can be a wonderful piece of style in its own right. The console shifter is also where I prefer to rest my right hand when it's not on the wheel. Using the armrest leaves me feeling my hand is too far out of position.

I have to admit, NevadaJack, that I laughed out loud at your comment about mistaking an Avalon for an LS. You've said a great many brilliant things on this forum, but you're a little off the reservation with that one. It's possible, I suppose, but I think they look very different. And to suggest that M-B doesn't have a problem of shared styling is to willfully ignore the C215 CL-Class and the current CLK (which look very similar from some quarters), or the extent to which the new SLK apes the SLR. AND M-B has half the world convinced, wrongly, that the R-Class and the Pacifica are two versions of the same thing. The LS looks nothing like the GS or the IS, and that's good enough for me. I think all companies, though, are trying to hard to impose a "brand identity" on the exterior of their vehicles, and it gets rather tiresome. Lexus is still trying to find its stylistic niche, and I hope they keep a wider appearance range than, say, Audi.

I get rather tired of people pounding on the Japanese. I actually like the somewhat understated and subdued look, and I always found the LS to be unobjectionable. I think the new version is easily the most stylish LS ever on the outside, and while it is definitely Japanese in appearance, that's no different from the Teutonic appearance of German sedans. It's just an aspect of their differing characters. I also like the interior ambience; I've always loved the style of the woods that Lexus uses in their interiors (I fell in love, though, with the S600 Designo Mystic White, thanks to my soft spot for piano lacquer). They've never felt cheap to me. Obviously the new LS isn't perfect, but NEITHER IS THE S-CLASS. It's a damned nice sedan, but even it has flaws and weak points, and they all cater to slightly different niches. That's why I roll my eyes sometimes when people ask "what should I buy?" Well, what's most important to you?

The bottom line, in my book, is that they are all fully equivalent. In the top-flight luxury range (before venturing to 100k+ market, that is), you've got about a half-dozen competitors: the A8, the 7er-Reihe, the XJs, the LS-Series, the Qporte, and the S-Klasse, plus the junior players: the DTS, Q45, and even the Acura RL. All of them cater to slightly different groups, with some overlap, but they're all valid. Except the Lincoln Town Car, which deserves to be shot at once and replaced with something more like the '02 Continental Concept. If you want something totally sport, buy a Qporte or a 7er. If you want a steam locomotive effect that shows that you've arrived and shouts from the rooftops, then buy all means buy a S550 (and yes, there are plenty of other good reasons to do so, as well). If you want something that says old-school sport saloon, then you can't go wrong with an XJ. I don't know who buys A8s. Considering their yearly sales figures, neither does Audi. Just kidding. It's someone who wants a Teutonic feel, but has a techy bent and a sense of quirkiness (a rich Saab buyer, basically). And if you want a lot of features and available power, but without lots of flash, then an LS is a good choice. But even in these thumbnail stereotypes, there's room for cross-over buyers, and most importantly, room for everyone and their favorite car. There's little worse than people sneering, 'it's not really an S-Class competitor.' Of course it is: engines, pricing, exclusivity, interior volume, feature content, fit and finish; in these categories they are all more or less comparable, with some stronger in some areas than others.

I laugh, as well, when people try to dismiss Lexus as just a Toyota. Sure it is. And M-B is just a glorified Chrysler, and Audis are just expensive VWs. Of course they aren't, and even if they were, you could do far worse. Lexus takes the best features of Toyota (reliability, ease of maintenance, efficiency, customer service, and quieting) and takes that to the next level. Yes, Lexi were sold as Toyotas in Japan, but there the company had 5 sales channels that functioned like GM's divisions, and intelligent people don't say that all Cadillacs are just Chevys, which is a similar analogy. My Camry already uses the expensive muffler/exhaust system chosen by M-B, as I discovered to my horror when a tailgater rear-ended me. I like my car for its road isolation and soothing aspect. I can still push it hard when I want to, and even a four-cylinder Toyota can be fun to play with in the twisties if you keep your foot in the right spot, but the thought of a Toyota-like ride quality and cabin stillness in a luxury car is very appealing to me, even though I'm not an old geezer yet. And liking a car that's quiet and supple until asked to be something else is not to call it "an appliance". Anyone who has ever heard a fridge or a blender knows that appliances are noisy things. I'd rather hear Mark Levinson than the drone of tires on asphault, thank you very much, and if I want to hear the engine, I'll hit the loud pedal.

It may be true that price becomes less relevant in this segment, but I would still hold that bulletproof reliability is worth something, too. And why pay more if you can get everything you want for less? Just because the LS costs less than the S-Class doesn't make it cheap, or a car for tightwads, as some have seemed to imply. If your favorite niche requires paying more, fine and dandy, but if it doesn't, that's fine too. It doesn't make your car underclass. In my book, if I spend $70k+ for a car (hell, if I spend more than $10k), it had better work and get me where I want to go without warning lights producing a Christmas tree effect on the dashboard. Many of the empirical studies done consistently put BMW/Jaguar/M-B models at the very bottom of the reliability heap. If you're patient enough with, more power to you. You're certainly getting a dynamic, exciting vehicle. But, again just personally, it would annoy to spend that much on a car and not be able to enjoy it fully, whenever and wherever I want. I am happy to give M-B the benefit of the doubt on the W221, and I hope they've eliminated their gremlins, because I want the company to recover its reputation for quality, but I don't think I'd be ready to take the plunge into a Benz product yet, myself. To question whether the electronic gimmickry on an LS will work while implying that of course it all works on a 'Benz takes a spectacular amount of hubris.

It is also true that the LS is a very low-emissions vehicle; the LS puts out nearly a ton less in greenhouse gas emissions per year than its rivals, and of course the LS 460's fuel economy is best-in-class. Granted, you pay for that in acceleration, but it's still a quick car by most any standard. And in an era where both reducing oil supplies and rising temperatures are a reality, I believe this is work taking into account. No, not everybody has to buy a hybrid, but it's worth remembering that we all share a planet, and we'll all be screwed over when the glaciers melt, the coasts flood, and the climate patterns in the Interior mean that we'll have to grow corn in Saskatchewan.

However, I still respect people who choose to buy the full range of these cars. I disagree that there are too many marques: on the contrary, it means that there's something for everyone, whatever your outlook. As a student of the industry, and a general enthusiast, I can see the different sides of the dice. I understand why people buy Audis, and why people buy Benzs, and Bimmers, and the rest of it. From seeing it, and poking around it, I like the LS. It'd probably be my choice, were I in the market for such a vehicle, but I wouldn't heap scorn on people who make a different choice. I respect the people whose posts I read here, and I'm glad they love their M-B's as much as I love my Camry. Let's just all enjoy the wonders of the modern automotive industry, and recognize that almost all brands have some strength that others do not. Just don't go all holier-than-thou just because someone prioritizes differently, or has a different sense of style, and don't think that because your car is perfect for you that is thus the only choice for everyone on the planet who doesn't want to be called a loser.