LS460l Test Drive
10-27-2006, 01:38 AM
#101
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stardoc, you have obviously never taken an W211 AMG or CLS55/63 with 030 on a track, or SLK55.
Lets just agree to disagree on this issue. We drive what we like and we have our reasons for doing so.
Lets just agree to disagree on this issue. We drive what we like and we have our reasons for doing so.
10-27-2006, 01:44 AM
#102
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
M
10-27-2006, 01:50 AM
#103
Whatever happens, I'm still happy that Toyota can bring a promising car to the very competitive segment. It's the technologies and features that appear in these cars today that will trickle down in the mass-produced cars of tomorrow.
Keyless Go.
Xenon headlamps.
Navigation systems.
Traction control.
etc.
Come on, you can't possible actually mean that. Compare the C320 to the IS350. 
Yes, perhaps if you're talking about the LS vs the S, but I've said before the intent of the LS isn't meant to be exciting...
Edit: What the hell. It took me more than a half hour to post my message. I stopped and I reposted it with some more information and it took another few minutes. I give up on mbworld.org
Someone shoot me an email when we get faster servers.
Keyless Go.
Xenon headlamps.
Navigation systems.
Traction control.
etc.
If we're going to debate the brands Lexus vs. MB as far who builds more exciting machines there is no contest.
Yes, perhaps if you're talking about the LS vs the S, but I've said before the intent of the LS isn't meant to be exciting...Edit: What the hell. It took me more than a half hour to post my message. I stopped and I reposted it with some more information and it took another few minutes. I give up on mbworld.org
Someone shoot me an email when we get faster servers.
10-27-2006, 02:05 AM
#105
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There is no C320. Secondly its replacement, the C350 has the power and it actually has a real stick shift and darned good one at that, something Lexus doesn't have the sense to offer on their IS350. Secondly from what I've seen on both cars the C350 is very competitive. Sports Car International actually compared them and the C350 ranked ahead of the IS350 and when C&D tested the C350 they hinted that it would have ranked somewhere near the top of that comparo they did with the 330i/G35/IS350/TL etc. So this implication about it being no contest between the IS350 and C350 isn't related to anything factual. Now I'll give you that the IS350 outclassed the C350 in many, many other areas due to the C having a beard at this point, but in the narrow context of a sports sedan it is the Lexus that needs more work not the Benz.
M
10-27-2006, 08:38 AM
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German, today there is no longer a Lexus LS here and a Toyota Celsior(LS) in Japan. They have fixed that and they now offer the LS all around the world so it clearly is a Lexus. And it as sold way beyond expectations in Japan. I dont see to many simlarities with the ES and Camry like before, they are simply sharing platforms. If you think the camry looks similar then you need to head to the Lexus dealer, the back end of the LS impressed me the most.
10-27-2006, 03:12 PM
#107
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Hmm the Lexus ES350 has the same V6 as the Camry, except for ECU tuning to give it more grunt, near identical body panels, chasis, and the list goes on.
The LS's sales in Japan will soon go down after a while, just as the RL's sales have decreased afters its great release.
The LS's sales in Japan will soon go down after a while, just as the RL's sales have decreased afters its great release.
10-27-2006, 06:28 PM
#108
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E550 4MATIC
I'm gonna jump in here and offer my opinion...I definately will be going to test drive the LS just so I have a basis to judge, but thanks for all the great info on here so far guys. As far as MB vs. Lexus, I have this argument all the time with my friends. While Lexus makes very competent cars--comfortable, safe, well-priced, etc, to me they lack excitement. I know someone is going to argue this point, but you really can't--the excitement I feel when I get into an MB, any MB from C230 to S600 is more than anything I ever feel when sitting in a Lexus. This is subjective though, and I'm sure there are some who might feel this way towards Lexus.
Also for the record, if I decided to listen to automotive journalists, JD Power, or Consumer Reports I probably would never have bought my C-Class. But none of those people are driving my car every day and I couldn't care less about what they have to say about any car. There are always going to be problems in cars, from Bentley down to Daewoo and to me its more important to select a car that makes you happy and also make sure it has a good warranty.
Lastly I will share something that the writers at the British magazine "Car" recently wrote about the new LS. I can't find the actual issue right now, but bascially they said that it is a very great car, but they wrote something about "if only they had remembered to engineer CHARACTER into it." This is what I feel is missing from most Lexuses (Lexi?) lol
Oh and Germancar1 you are toatally right about the Camery looking identical to the LS, for all others please direct your attention to the comparison below:
Also for the record, if I decided to listen to automotive journalists, JD Power, or Consumer Reports I probably would never have bought my C-Class. But none of those people are driving my car every day and I couldn't care less about what they have to say about any car. There are always going to be problems in cars, from Bentley down to Daewoo and to me its more important to select a car that makes you happy and also make sure it has a good warranty.
Lastly I will share something that the writers at the British magazine "Car" recently wrote about the new LS. I can't find the actual issue right now, but bascially they said that it is a very great car, but they wrote something about "if only they had remembered to engineer CHARACTER into it." This is what I feel is missing from most Lexuses (Lexi?) lol
Oh and Germancar1 you are toatally right about the Camery looking identical to the LS, for all others please direct your attention to the comparison below:
Last edited by pmb600; 10-27-2006 at 10:40 PM.
10-28-2006, 01:02 PM
#110
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It looks more like an ES. I have a hard time when looking at pictures or when I was in person, about the appearance of the LS next to the ES. Headlights look the same and all and have the same overall general rake.
And who says you cant look at a picture?
And who says you cant look at a picture?
10-28-2006, 01:31 PM
#111
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I can admit the new S-class has presence but I believe an EVO reviewer said it best "When did the Benz ML become the styling inspiration for Mercedes with these giant wheel arches"??
The LS could look like a damn Mini-Cooper, people would still post pics side by side and say "Looks just like a Camry". That 6 year old argument was new back in the early 90s.....let it go.....
As for FACTS, I have never read an article in Car and Driver or Motor Trend or any mag where the LS lost to the S-class. The S-class usually ranks pretty low in the rankings actually. That is a FACT.
Here just one article where the old S-class was 6th out of 6 cars, the LS won.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...ans-page2.html
Now I am not saying at all, the LS is perfect and the S is bad. Not at all. Both are IMO just fantastic examples of top luxury from each country. Nothing says I've made it like a S-class.
Considering the S-class has what, 9 generations and the LS is only 17 years young, I think what Lexus has accomplished is astounding.
All this baseless bashing on the LS is childish. Clearly people will not think it is the best and will buy the S/7 or even A8. It is very viable competition and has been for SOMETIME NOW.
Here is the LS with the Tom's bodykit...
The LS could look like a damn Mini-Cooper, people would still post pics side by side and say "Looks just like a Camry". That 6 year old argument was new back in the early 90s.....let it go.....
As for FACTS, I have never read an article in Car and Driver or Motor Trend or any mag where the LS lost to the S-class. The S-class usually ranks pretty low in the rankings actually. That is a FACT.
Here just one article where the old S-class was 6th out of 6 cars, the LS won.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...ans-page2.html
Now I am not saying at all, the LS is perfect and the S is bad. Not at all. Both are IMO just fantastic examples of top luxury from each country. Nothing says I've made it like a S-class.
Considering the S-class has what, 9 generations and the LS is only 17 years young, I think what Lexus has accomplished is astounding.
All this baseless bashing on the LS is childish. Clearly people will not think it is the best and will buy the S/7 or even A8. It is very viable competition and has been for SOMETIME NOW.
Here is the LS with the Tom's bodykit...
10-28-2006, 01:45 PM
#113
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The old S was a turd, and Mercedes admitted it when they released the W221. Yes, Toyota has done a lot for lexus, but when one looks overall around the world, its a turd. Each lexus deisgn and model to date has been built for American consumers, Europe still doesnt regard the Lexus as a premium brand and thats evident with its sales, sure sales have raised 7~8% in the last year, but expect that number to decrease as the designs get old.
I still think that spending 100K+ for a Japanese vehicle is absurd and at the end of the day, its a toyota or honda or nissan underneath. The LS is a good car for those who dont want to spend the money for a more well engineered car that IMO is safer, and something that will still look good 10 years from now. This LS design will get old within 5 years, even with a refresh.
I still think that spending 100K+ for a Japanese vehicle is absurd and at the end of the day, its a toyota or honda or nissan underneath. The LS is a good car for those who dont want to spend the money for a more well engineered car that IMO is safer, and something that will still look good 10 years from now. This LS design will get old within 5 years, even with a refresh.
10-28-2006, 02:15 PM
#114
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The old S was a turd, and Mercedes admitted it when they released the W221. Yes, Toyota has done a lot for lexus, but when one looks overall around the world, its a turd. Each lexus deisgn and model to date has been built for American consumers, Europe still doesnt regard the Lexus as a premium brand and thats evident with its sales, sure sales have raised 7~8% in the last year, but expect that number to decrease as the designs get old.
I still think that spending 100K+ for a Japanese vehicle is absurd and at the end of the day, its a toyota or honda or nissan underneath. The LS is a good car for those who dont want to spend the money for a more well engineered car that IMO is safer, and something that will still look good 10 years from now. This LS design will get old within 5 years, even with a refresh.
I still think that spending 100K+ for a Japanese vehicle is absurd and at the end of the day, its a toyota or honda or nissan underneath. The LS is a good car for those who dont want to spend the money for a more well engineered car that IMO is safer, and something that will still look good 10 years from now. This LS design will get old within 5 years, even with a refresh.
"Like its S-class progenitors, this ninth-gen cruiser induces more contemplation and serenity than hot-blooded enthusiasm. It coddles, protects, and isolates. It eats interstate miles like a bullfrog eats flies. And its ability to gather felonious speeds remains magical. But the S550 is otherwise not hugely involving—you might be just as pleased to let a chauffeur seize the wheel, an arrangement not uncommon on the Continent.
This is the best S-class ever, still a stately and aristocratic institution, the automotive equivalent of the Budweiser Clydesdales in the Rose Bowl parade."
C&D will never agree that a MB S Class can handle like the cars they love to drive but these guys went ape in the article about the new S.
If you like a non-descript car guided by Consumer Reports and JD Powers in it's production cycle, then by all means buy a Lexus. If you want an automobile designed for safety, performance and style then you buy a Mercedes. Simple as that.
10-28-2006, 05:03 PM
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True, Mercedes are about luxury but they handle better and they certainly look better and to me that spell more excitiment than driving a total isolation chamber like a Lexus where they go out of their way to make sure you don't even hear the engine! Cars like the Lexus SC430 don't hold a candle to the SL550 in handling either. I'm looking the entire brands, not just one or two models. Lexus doesn't even have a single model that could be called exclusive or rare. On any given day you'll see Lexus' entire lineup and they don't have a single sporty 2-door and their sporty 4-doors are regularly trounced by BMW and even Mercedes in some cases. Lexus is quality, reliability and service, but they're about as exciting as dishwater.
This about AMG being straightline cars only is somewhat outdated. The SLK55 AMG is just as sporty in curves as it is in a straightline and the new "63" cars are much more rounded than the "55" models they've replaced. Even Car and Driver was shocked to see how accomplished the SLK55 was in handling compared to the usual AMG treatment. You haven't seen the European and more specifically German comparos in which the E63 is now beating the M5 due to being an all around better package? In short what they're saying is that the M5's handling advantage isn't that big anymore and it doesn't outweight the comfort of the E63. So not all AMG models are just about straight line go.
If we're going to talk about just the S550 and LS460 then yes they're similar in the way the prize comfort over sport compared to say a 750Li, but so far the LS460's roadmanners are falling short of the S550 as did the LS430 did compared to the S430/S500 when it comes to dynamics.
If we're going to debate the brands Lexus vs. MB as far who builds more exciting machines there is no contest.
M
This about AMG being straightline cars only is somewhat outdated. The SLK55 AMG is just as sporty in curves as it is in a straightline and the new "63" cars are much more rounded than the "55" models they've replaced. Even Car and Driver was shocked to see how accomplished the SLK55 was in handling compared to the usual AMG treatment. You haven't seen the European and more specifically German comparos in which the E63 is now beating the M5 due to being an all around better package? In short what they're saying is that the M5's handling advantage isn't that big anymore and it doesn't outweight the comfort of the E63. So not all AMG models are just about straight line go.
If we're going to talk about just the S550 and LS460 then yes they're similar in the way the prize comfort over sport compared to say a 750Li, but so far the LS460's roadmanners are falling short of the S550 as did the LS430 did compared to the S430/S500 when it comes to dynamics.
If we're going to debate the brands Lexus vs. MB as far who builds more exciting machines there is no contest.
M
10-28-2006, 05:19 PM
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For all i know so far the LS has been tested base. They havent tested the L with the air suspension that one mag said almost flattened the body roll and the touring has yet to be tested, which comes with wider lower profile tires and a different suspension set up. So i didnt give up on the handling part yet. The interiors of both the S and LS are amazing and if you continue to bash that its just obvious your just spitting anything to put it down. The exterior looks 10x better than previous versions and in real life it looks great, it looks similar to the other Lexus models. To me i would say both cars are equally impressive but thats me I already know what the others think.
10-28-2006, 05:44 PM
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The old S was a turd, and Mercedes admitted it when they released the W221. Yes, Toyota has done a lot for lexus, but when one looks overall around the world, its a turd. Each lexus deisgn and model to date has been built for American consumers, Europe still doesnt regard the Lexus as a premium brand and thats evident with its sales, sure sales have raised 7~8% in the last year, but expect that number to decrease as the designs get old.
I still think that spending 100K+ for a Japanese vehicle is absurd and at the end of the day, its a toyota or honda or nissan underneath. The LS is a good car for those who dont want to spend the money for a more well engineered car that IMO is safer, and something that will still look good 10 years from now. This LS design will get old within 5 years, even with a refresh.
I still think that spending 100K+ for a Japanese vehicle is absurd and at the end of the day, its a toyota or honda or nissan underneath. The LS is a good car for those who dont want to spend the money for a more well engineered car that IMO is safer, and something that will still look good 10 years from now. This LS design will get old within 5 years, even with a refresh.
Well put, the part that stands out to me and I had never thought about was that it will 'still look good 10 yrs from now.' This is something that none of the japanese cars can stand up to. You take a 1996 MB S600 and when it drives by me I think two things, Wow that is a nice looking car and WOW how cool is it that a 10 year old car still has its own panache. You can't say that about any LS or any of their other products lines, not exclusive to Lex. You even take an old E class and you still get the feeling that hey, this car is something, it may not be brand new but it still looks good and it still has many features that other cars don't even have yet. Not to mention the safety that you can expect from MB. You can't do that with an old Camry, or an old Acura. When those cars get old, they look OLD. I have an '01 Jetta GLX(high specification), which I keep mint and I realize it can't compare in the same anything with a MB....but when I drive it I have friends and know people who say 'hey that is a nice looking car' and when I tell them it is an '01 they are taken back. Point: there is a lot that can be said for a car that is styled so gracefully and perfectly that years later it is still sought after and looks good. I would say that about most German cars IMO, take a 1988 911 Slantnose vs. an Acura NSX, when I see the Ac in traffic I don't even turn my head.
10-28-2006, 05:52 PM
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Mabye I'm guilty of rounding all AMG models (past and present) into one package when discussing true sporting ability, and perhaps I'm wrong. But if MB is truly serious about trackability and sporting prowess with their AMG models then they should offer something other than just a slush box. I for what its worth think that for true luxury and performance the Maserati Quattroporte wins hands down. I just don't think it's practical as an every day grocery getter and baby hauler.
I agree that the QP has a lot of bespoke options but you cannot say that it wins hands down. I love that you can get any wood/carpet/dash/headliner/leather/piping combination and the tridents on the backseats just give you goosebumps. Besides that, the QP has a worthless console and all the features are not integrated as well as the S. I would have to say though, if I were buying a 100k car I would think long and hard about whether to get the S or the QP and I would probably get the QP because it's different, but it wouldn't win hands down IMO.
10-28-2006, 07:02 PM
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Well put, the part that stands out to me and I had never thought about was that it will 'still look good 10 yrs from now.' This is something that none of the japanese cars can stand up to. You take a 1996 MB S600 and when it drives by me I think two things, Wow that is a nice looking car and WOW how cool is it that a 10 year old car still has its own panache. You can't say that about any LS or any of their other products lines, not exclusive to Lex. You even take an old E class and you still get the feeling that hey, this car is something, it may not be brand new but it still looks good and it still has many features that other cars don't even have yet. Not to mention the safety that you can expect from MB. You can't do that with an old Camry, or an old Acura. When those cars get old, they look OLD. I have an '01 Jetta GLX(high specification), which I keep mint and I realize it can't compare in the same anything with a MB....but when I drive it I have friends and know people who say 'hey that is a nice looking car' and when I tell them it is an '01 they are taken back. Point: there is a lot that can be said for a car that is styled so gracefully and perfectly that years later it is still sought after and looks good. I would say that about most German cars IMO, take a 1988 911 Slantnose vs. an Acura NSX, when I see the Ac in traffic I don't even turn my head.
10-28-2006, 11:20 PM
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I dont think anything of the old S class when it drives by. Its just old and boxy to me. You mentioned e-class, how about the 98 GS400? To this day i still get tons of compliments and stares in my 99 GS and btw i have 97 E class. You might be on target but you dont have the right models down. I would say the 7 series was a huge hit and the 1st gen LS was a hit. All new cars will age faster because companies are putting out refreshed or completely new models in 6 years compared to 9 years in the 1990s.
BACK TO THE LS...I was at the Lex dealership today and had them pull the ES up right next to it and I was disappointed. The front ends of the two cars were differentiable but from halfway back the ES and LS are very similar. The lines on the side of the car are very similar and the same with the lights on the back. The tailpipes are different but besides that I found them very comparable. The inside of the LS resembles the old LS more than I think it should, especially for its big remodel. I was unable to drive the car because it was sold, it was the only one they had (LS 460) swb. The interior of the car does maintain a high level of craftsmanship and the smooth refinement you can expect from a Lex and if you like shiny wood the LS cannot be beat. Sorry, but the S wins hands down in aesthetics, leather quality, appeal, and layout.
10-28-2006, 11:54 PM
#124
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I guess this just proves that everyone has their own tastes. IMO I like the both the mid 90s S and the E, I must be a fan of the more boxy cars. I do concede that the GS 400 is a step in the right direction for the Japanese auto corps, but I still maintain that if you take every model vehicle from the mid 90s the German ones still have curb appeal. The Infiniti I30 or Q45 look marginal, same with the Acura's, and the GS 400 is the only Lex that can hold its own nowadays. This is just my opinion I guess that is what makes the world go around.
BACK TO THE LS...I was at the Lex dealership today and had them pull the ES up right next to it and I was disappointed. The front ends of the two cars were differentiable but from halfway back the ES and LS are very similar. The lines on the side of the car are very similar and the same with the lights on the back. The tailpipes are different but besides that I found them very comparable. The inside of the LS resembles the old LS more than I think it should, especially for its big remodel. I was unable to drive the car because it was sold, it was the only one they had (LS 460) swb. The interior of the car does maintain a high level of craftsmanship and the smooth refinement you can expect from a Lex and if you like shiny wood the LS cannot be beat. Sorry, but the S wins hands down in aesthetics, leather quality, appeal, and layout.
BACK TO THE LS...I was at the Lex dealership today and had them pull the ES up right next to it and I was disappointed. The front ends of the two cars were differentiable but from halfway back the ES and LS are very similar. The lines on the side of the car are very similar and the same with the lights on the back. The tailpipes are different but besides that I found them very comparable. The inside of the LS resembles the old LS more than I think it should, especially for its big remodel. I was unable to drive the car because it was sold, it was the only one they had (LS 460) swb. The interior of the car does maintain a high level of craftsmanship and the smooth refinement you can expect from a Lex and if you like shiny wood the LS cannot be beat. Sorry, but the S wins hands down in aesthetics, leather quality, appeal, and layout.
MB didn't take the W220 and say we will improve the quality faults and do a facelift since it had some pretty nice classic S class lines. No...they started fresh and built a new design shocking long time S lovers with "wheel flares" and bold lines and a powerful front end. They designed an egonomic COMAND system, even being accused of copying the BMW interior. In spite of knowing that they would be so accused, they created the cleanest and most workable, high quality interior in a luxury sedan. They upgraded the technology to the current state of the art with the seating being honored for it's quality and comfort.
In the end Mercedes Benz did what Lexus should have done and that is why the S Class is still the standard to what other luxury cars hope to be. As someone said...MB will lead and the others will follow....
10-29-2006, 01:38 AM
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I went to the Lexus dealer this evening...and I must say one thing, for 73k the fully loaded LS460(not L) is THEE best luxury sedan in that price range. its also probably the most reliable luxury sedan in the market as well, knowing lexus, they build the best damn quality cars PERIOD...this coming from someone who currently has two benzes and two lexus' and a 1994 camry LE V4 (thought id add that in for kicks)...yes the MB and BMW have a greater presence on the road...but not so much that id pay an extra 25-30k....the LS460 which looks just AMAZING in person(photos honestly do it no justice)...lexus has really outdone themselves with this car.....just my overall opinion...now the lashingg out may begin
haha
haha
