Is the W221 back to the over engineered MB:s?
06-11-2008, 03:10 AM
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Is the W221 back to the over engineered MB:s?
I donīt have any real experience from the latest S-class but have the impression that this is a really well built and in some way back to the old school "over engineered" MB:s like the W126? I tried one in frankfurt and was really impressed. What do you owners think? Please be as objective as you can 
06-11-2008, 09:55 AM
#2
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W126 was a version I admired as a kid, but don't know enough anecdotal/objective data to estimate how well-engineered/built is that iteration....sometimes nostalgia creates much mythology
My anecdotal sense is latest-gen S/CL are highest-tech cars on planet today....and easily the most reliable, highest quality cars on road today...even more remarkable an accomplishment when one considers the level of advcd tech these cars have....
Suspect if one considers perf/precision; interior ergonomics/aesthetics; and overall active/passive safety, today's S/CL are truly an order of magnitude superior to any prior-gen S/CL (or any other current-gen $100K+ car)...
After owning several new, '07-'08 S/CLs, I find it difficult to be impressed by any other car, incl latest/greatest F/P (or even other AMGs)...I periodically test-drive various cars simply b/c I'm always curious about latest/greatest-tech from various mfrs and how it performs on real-world rds w/a mediocre amateur driver.....e.g., I recently passed on getting an SL63 030 largely b/c I couldn't overcome the nausea induced by its archaic, some 6yo+ tech....lack of DistPlus/BrakeAssistPlus/BlindSpotAssist; archaic, non-ergonomic sport seats; cheap, tacky interior finishes (buttons, door pulls, etc); sat radio wart on trunk lid, etc etc.....
Am looking fwd to S-Class facelift in ?Spr09....should feature a few more tech advances/refinements/debugs....what's amusing is how many of today's allegedly competing $100K+ cars still lack S-Class tech introduced 2.5 yrs ago....the time lag is glaring....suspect R&D depts at these mfrs simply lack particularly smart, innovative, effective engineers....
My anecdotal sense is latest-gen S/CL are highest-tech cars on planet today....and easily the most reliable, highest quality cars on road today...even more remarkable an accomplishment when one considers the level of advcd tech these cars have....
Suspect if one considers perf/precision; interior ergonomics/aesthetics; and overall active/passive safety, today's S/CL are truly an order of magnitude superior to any prior-gen S/CL (or any other current-gen $100K+ car)...
After owning several new, '07-'08 S/CLs, I find it difficult to be impressed by any other car, incl latest/greatest F/P (or even other AMGs)...I periodically test-drive various cars simply b/c I'm always curious about latest/greatest-tech from various mfrs and how it performs on real-world rds w/a mediocre amateur driver.....e.g., I recently passed on getting an SL63 030 largely b/c I couldn't overcome the nausea induced by its archaic, some 6yo+ tech....lack of DistPlus/BrakeAssistPlus/BlindSpotAssist; archaic, non-ergonomic sport seats; cheap, tacky interior finishes (buttons, door pulls, etc); sat radio wart on trunk lid, etc etc.....
Am looking fwd to S-Class facelift in ?Spr09....should feature a few more tech advances/refinements/debugs....what's amusing is how many of today's allegedly competing $100K+ cars still lack S-Class tech introduced 2.5 yrs ago....the time lag is glaring....suspect R&D depts at these mfrs simply lack particularly smart, innovative, effective engineers....
06-11-2008, 10:05 AM
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Very interesting answer! I have a 136 myself and the quality is indeed very high even compared to w220 but when I tried the w221 I got a soimilar impression. Of course much more modern in every aspect.
More questions, Iīm also looking forward to the face lift and the introduction of hybrids. Compared to the Lexus, does it have any similar sytem to the Pre-safe?
More questions, Iīm also looking forward to the face lift and the introduction of hybrids. Compared to the Lexus, does it have any similar sytem to the Pre-safe?
06-11-2008, 11:43 AM
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MB has obviously spent a lot of energy on quality and it seems that the latest models are much improved, but they can never be as reliable as the W126. The reason is complexity. I posted a feature comparison once,
https://mbworld.org/forums/showpost....47&postcount=4
and it tells the story. There are so many more components today that it's denying the laws of physics to expect there won't be more failures. There are so many tricks that I didn't even mention in that comparison too. How many sensors, computers, signal buses and motors just to work the automatic folding mirrors?
https://mbworld.org/forums/showpost....47&postcount=4
and it tells the story. There are so many more components today that it's denying the laws of physics to expect there won't be more failures. There are so many tricks that I didn't even mention in that comparison too. How many sensors, computers, signal buses and motors just to work the automatic folding mirrors?
06-11-2008, 11:44 AM
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Based upon my test-drives of Lexus, have always viewed them as fairly unsafe cars, even at <65MPH...no matter what safety systems they claim to have....
I tend to value active safety much more than do most consumers....so I try to assess steering precision/chassis precision&stability/brake pedal feel&response/fast&smart stability ctrls, esp to predict how all these systems may work together within the secs in which one needs to instantaneously react to an emergent situation on a poss busy, bumpy, wet urban fwy w/70+MPH traffic flow....
Have never been impressed (based upon both common sense analysis and test-drives) by Lexus safety strucs/systems/engineering/dynamics....(aside from S/CL, only other car I view as reasonably safe is 997TT Coupe)....
Have also heard that there may be an economic (tariff-related) reason why Japanese steel used in their cars is weaker strength than MB-spec steel...
And hard to over-estimate the value of MB's decades of engineering expce and testing of cars on derestricted AB, where active safety is arguably even more relevant than passive safety....and a massive pool of real-world, high-speed crash data from which to advance and iterate the safety engineering of one's cars, esp if one already has a team of safety engineers w/a demonstrated ability to innovate safety systems that other high-end mfrs try to emulate a few yrs later (if at all)....
I tend to value active safety much more than do most consumers....so I try to assess steering precision/chassis precision&stability/brake pedal feel&response/fast&smart stability ctrls, esp to predict how all these systems may work together within the secs in which one needs to instantaneously react to an emergent situation on a poss busy, bumpy, wet urban fwy w/70+MPH traffic flow....
Have never been impressed (based upon both common sense analysis and test-drives) by Lexus safety strucs/systems/engineering/dynamics....(aside from S/CL, only other car I view as reasonably safe is 997TT Coupe)....
Have also heard that there may be an economic (tariff-related) reason why Japanese steel used in their cars is weaker strength than MB-spec steel...
And hard to over-estimate the value of MB's decades of engineering expce and testing of cars on derestricted AB, where active safety is arguably even more relevant than passive safety....and a massive pool of real-world, high-speed crash data from which to advance and iterate the safety engineering of one's cars, esp if one already has a team of safety engineers w/a demonstrated ability to innovate safety systems that other high-end mfrs try to emulate a few yrs later (if at all)....
06-11-2008, 11:50 AM
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'09 S63 AMG
So far I've had no problems.
There are a few little things that bug me though.... and for a car that's around $106,000, I think I'm entitled to a few expectations:
1) ABC should be standard. Either that, or go beg BMW to tell you how to build a car that's over 4000 lbs and doesn't have body roll
2) Add a little more wood to the interior - like on the doors and arm rest.
3) Make the headlight switch selector illuminated (back lit), so that when it's dark one can actually see where the selector is (main beam, parking lights, fog lights, etc.)
4) Upgrade the cheap plasticy-chrome stuff like the whole front grille, moulding above side skirts and trunk moulding
5) Make the rotors/brakes that are on the S63/65 standard on the 550
There are a few little things that bug me though.... and for a car that's around $106,000, I think I'm entitled to a few expectations:
1) ABC should be standard. Either that, or go beg BMW to tell you how to build a car that's over 4000 lbs and doesn't have body roll
2) Add a little more wood to the interior - like on the doors and arm rest.
3) Make the headlight switch selector illuminated (back lit), so that when it's dark one can actually see where the selector is (main beam, parking lights, fog lights, etc.)
4) Upgrade the cheap plasticy-chrome stuff like the whole front grille, moulding above side skirts and trunk moulding
5) Make the rotors/brakes that are on the S63/65 standard on the 550
06-11-2008, 11:54 AM
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'09 S63 AMG
Based upon my test-drives of Lexus, have always viewed them as fairly unsafe cars, even at <65MPH...no matter what safety systems they claim to have....
I tend to value active safety much more than do most consumers....so I try to assess steering precision/chassis precision&stability/brake pedal feel&response/fast&smart stability ctrls, esp to predict how all these systems may work together within the secs in which one needs to instantaneously react to an emergent situation on a poss busy, bumpy, wet urban fwy w/70+MPH traffic flow....
Have never been impressed (based upon both common sense analysis and test-drives) by Lexus safety strucs/systems/engineering/dynamics....(aside from S/CL, only other car I view as reasonably safe is 997TT Coupe)....
Have also heard that there may be an economic (tariff-related) reason why Japanese steel used in their cars is weaker strength than MB-spec steel...
And hard to over-estimate the value of MB's decades of engineering expce and testing of cars on derestricted AB, where active safety is arguably even more relevant than passive safety....and a massive pool of real-world, high-speed crash data from which to advance and iterate the safety engineering of one's cars, esp if one already has a team of safety engineers w/a demonstrated ability to innovate safety systems that other high-end mfrs try to emulate a few yrs later (if at all)....
I tend to value active safety much more than do most consumers....so I try to assess steering precision/chassis precision&stability/brake pedal feel&response/fast&smart stability ctrls, esp to predict how all these systems may work together within the secs in which one needs to instantaneously react to an emergent situation on a poss busy, bumpy, wet urban fwy w/70+MPH traffic flow....
Have never been impressed (based upon both common sense analysis and test-drives) by Lexus safety strucs/systems/engineering/dynamics....(aside from S/CL, only other car I view as reasonably safe is 997TT Coupe)....
Have also heard that there may be an economic (tariff-related) reason why Japanese steel used in their cars is weaker strength than MB-spec steel...
And hard to over-estimate the value of MB's decades of engineering expce and testing of cars on derestricted AB, where active safety is arguably even more relevant than passive safety....and a massive pool of real-world, high-speed crash data from which to advance and iterate the safety engineering of one's cars, esp if one already has a team of safety engineers w/a demonstrated ability to innovate safety systems that other high-end mfrs try to emulate a few yrs later (if at all)....
Have you actually test driven the LS?
Bias's aside I was impressed. Very impressed. The handling and braking power IMO were better than the 550.
Better enough that I .....(biased MB fanatic) would humbly admit to.
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06-12-2008, 01:32 AM
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I understand that the complexity will lead to a higher possiblitily of things breaking down but my question was more about the feeling of materials and stuff which feels better in a 126 than a w220.
Interesting comparison with the Lexus, but does anybody know if they have a similar systm as pre safe, read in a German magazin it had but I really could understand the text.
Interesting comparison with the Lexus, but does anybody know if they have a similar systm as pre safe, read in a German magazin it had but I really could understand the text.
06-12-2008, 02:29 AM
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The Lexus LS460 doesn't come anywhere near the S550 on the road. The LS is a graduated Buick. Driving the 2 cars back to back I was immediately struck by how much buttoned down and solid feeling the S550 was, and the handling is much better in the Benz.
That said, there is nothing unsafe about the Lexus LS, WSH.
All cars come with plastic grilles nowadays, its done for pedestrian safety so forget about them going back to real chrome.
This about the W221 being over-engineered, it isn't. The Benzes that were truly over-engineered from a build quality point of view were the W126, W124, but especially the W140 S-Class and the R129 SL. Those cars used thicker sheetmetal, more foam, rubber, and steel everywhere. The W220 by comparision was a tin can and Mercedes knew it, hence the dramatic transformation with the W221.
Nothing on the market except for maybe the Maybach (based on the W140, hence its W240 designation) is built like those older Benzes. Well maybe the VW Pheaton is when it comes to just physical build, its very stout also. I haven't had the chance to really examine the old-school Bentleys like the Azure, Arnage and Brooklands, but they at least appear to be very tank-like also.
What Mercedes has done is learn how to build a high quality car with a decent price. Sure the W140 was a tank, but the 1992 300SE cost the same as the 1991 560SEL in order to get the W140's build quality. The 1992 500SEL which was the true replacement for the 560SEL was over 90K if I remember right. No way could Mercedes float that kind of price jump today. The W221 S550 had the same or cheaper base price than the W220 S500, but with much greater build quality. That I'm sure took a lot of changes at Mercedes-Benz. The days of them building a car with no regard to cost are over and will never come back, but they can strive to meet that lofty goal halfway. The W221 does that IMO. Cost is a big factor now.
If they had kept down that path today's S-Class would cost Maybach money. Mercedes could build cars like that in the old days before all this electronic stuff came along, but now with the electronics and what not, an overbuilt car just isn't possible if you want to sell it for a decent price and have it not weigh 6000lbs. The W221 is a brilliantly balanced car, it has some of that old build, but with all the modern electronics. A killer package IMO.
M
That said, there is nothing unsafe about the Lexus LS, WSH.
All cars come with plastic grilles nowadays, its done for pedestrian safety so forget about them going back to real chrome.
This about the W221 being over-engineered, it isn't. The Benzes that were truly over-engineered from a build quality point of view were the W126, W124, but especially the W140 S-Class and the R129 SL. Those cars used thicker sheetmetal, more foam, rubber, and steel everywhere. The W220 by comparision was a tin can and Mercedes knew it, hence the dramatic transformation with the W221.
Nothing on the market except for maybe the Maybach (based on the W140, hence its W240 designation) is built like those older Benzes. Well maybe the VW Pheaton is when it comes to just physical build, its very stout also. I haven't had the chance to really examine the old-school Bentleys like the Azure, Arnage and Brooklands, but they at least appear to be very tank-like also.
What Mercedes has done is learn how to build a high quality car with a decent price. Sure the W140 was a tank, but the 1992 300SE cost the same as the 1991 560SEL in order to get the W140's build quality. The 1992 500SEL which was the true replacement for the 560SEL was over 90K if I remember right. No way could Mercedes float that kind of price jump today. The W221 S550 had the same or cheaper base price than the W220 S500, but with much greater build quality. That I'm sure took a lot of changes at Mercedes-Benz. The days of them building a car with no regard to cost are over and will never come back, but they can strive to meet that lofty goal halfway. The W221 does that IMO. Cost is a big factor now.
If they had kept down that path today's S-Class would cost Maybach money. Mercedes could build cars like that in the old days before all this electronic stuff came along, but now with the electronics and what not, an overbuilt car just isn't possible if you want to sell it for a decent price and have it not weigh 6000lbs. The W221 is a brilliantly balanced car, it has some of that old build, but with all the modern electronics. A killer package IMO.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 06-12-2008 at 02:34 AM.
06-12-2008, 03:07 AM
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The comparison w140 vs. w220 is very interesting since it was developed before the debacle with Chrysler? How could they internal accept the decrease in quality?
And the w221 if you compare the interior quality with competition like 7s, lex, Audi?
And the w221 if you compare the interior quality with competition like 7s, lex, Audi?
06-12-2008, 03:43 AM
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The W220's quality had nothing to do with Chrysler. It had to do with management's (or lack thereof) desire to "put a Benz in every garage". Which meant make them cheaper. The build and mechanical quality drop from the W140 to the W220 was shocking.
Mercedes had also been reeling under the harsh reviews the W140 got when initially introduced. Many said it was too big, heavy, over-engineered (in a bad way, being too complex) and overpriced. I mean really a remote controlled inside rear-view mirrors and pop-up reversing rods! Engineer's dream, service department, owner costs nightmare. Double paned glass, and the list goes on and on, the W140 was literally too much of a good thing.
Between the critics harping on the W140's engineering excessed and Mercedes' new found desire for volume the W220 was doomed to be a cheaper, lighter, less expensive car. Leading all this was Jurgen Schremp, the now (thank god) former head of the whole Chrysler-Mercedes tie up.
I'll never forget seeing the W220 at an auto show with people getting in and out of it with the doors being slammed....it made the whole car shake/shiver and the sound was tinny and nothing like the old W140 and W126s I had been in before. I couldn't believe it.
The W220 did have some good points though. The new air suspension (Mercedes' 4th try at it I think), better handling, and far more technical innovations than the W140 put the W220 over big time in sales compared the W140, but ah...when the reliability caught up with all this it was a mess at MB service departments everywhere.
The Audi A8 and W221 have IMO about the same interior quality, but the Audi's design is more eye catching with the way they work the wood/leather/aluminum, more modern if you will than the S-Class. The Audi just might have a slight edge in sheer material/build quality, but you'd have to take the 2 cars apart to really see the difference now. That wasn't the case with the W220, which the Audi easily stomped in build quality inside and out. The 7-Series is a high quality piece, but it isn't in the same league as the S-Class. The LS, also nice, but not the same....neither is the Jaguar XJ. Only the Audi compares to the S-Class when it comes to interior build quality, and it is arguably has a more youthful/modern design too.
M
Mercedes had also been reeling under the harsh reviews the W140 got when initially introduced. Many said it was too big, heavy, over-engineered (in a bad way, being too complex) and overpriced. I mean really a remote controlled inside rear-view mirrors and pop-up reversing rods! Engineer's dream, service department, owner costs nightmare. Double paned glass, and the list goes on and on, the W140 was literally too much of a good thing.
Between the critics harping on the W140's engineering excessed and Mercedes' new found desire for volume the W220 was doomed to be a cheaper, lighter, less expensive car. Leading all this was Jurgen Schremp, the now (thank god) former head of the whole Chrysler-Mercedes tie up.
I'll never forget seeing the W220 at an auto show with people getting in and out of it with the doors being slammed....it made the whole car shake/shiver and the sound was tinny and nothing like the old W140 and W126s I had been in before. I couldn't believe it.
The W220 did have some good points though. The new air suspension (Mercedes' 4th try at it I think), better handling, and far more technical innovations than the W140 put the W220 over big time in sales compared the W140, but ah...when the reliability caught up with all this it was a mess at MB service departments everywhere.
The Audi A8 and W221 have IMO about the same interior quality, but the Audi's design is more eye catching with the way they work the wood/leather/aluminum, more modern if you will than the S-Class. The Audi just might have a slight edge in sheer material/build quality, but you'd have to take the 2 cars apart to really see the difference now. That wasn't the case with the W220, which the Audi easily stomped in build quality inside and out. The 7-Series is a high quality piece, but it isn't in the same league as the S-Class. The LS, also nice, but not the same....neither is the Jaguar XJ. Only the Audi compares to the S-Class when it comes to interior build quality, and it is arguably has a more youthful/modern design too.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 06-12-2008 at 03:51 AM.
06-12-2008, 05:09 AM
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Very interesting views! Thanks a lot. I sheer your opinion about Schrempp, I wrote an essay about the merger at during my university and wasnīt too impressed but I like the Zetsche he is like sent from above for MB.
Anyway, the audi has a bit too traditional dashboard for me, the S-class and 7s are "on the next step" when it comes to dashboards in my opinion.
Anyway, it is really intersting at auto shows etc. to confront people from the companies with your own opinions. Did you tell them your opinion regarding the w220?
Anyway, the audi has a bit too traditional dashboard for me, the S-class and 7s are "on the next step" when it comes to dashboards in my opinion.
Anyway, it is really intersting at auto shows etc. to confront people from the companies with your own opinions. Did you tell them your opinion regarding the w220?
06-12-2008, 05:55 AM
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Nope, I didn't think of it at the time. I really should have, but they would have likely told me to kick rocks. They wouldn't have wanted to hear such harsh words about their new baby. The W220 did sell way better than the W140.
Oh yes Zetsche knows exactly what to do and so far he hasn't missed a step.
M
Oh yes Zetsche knows exactly what to do and so far he hasn't missed a step.
M
06-12-2008, 06:35 AM
#15
I have to agree with so many comments above as you can certainly distinguish who is who amongst loyal MB fans. I LOVED the W126!!! I don't know how many times I jumped in my little VW Rabbit when I was young just to go down to the local MB dealership (where I bought my current MB) and fantasize about owning one of those classy beauties. The materials were just unmatched by any other car in its day. I remember finally getting to ride in a new one back in 1988 (560SEL) and was just amazed at how nice it rode and how secure I felt in it. The design of that car still is awesome and almost immune to "style dating". If it were re-introduced with a few of the modern techno features such as car phone and distronic, I would buy one. Heck, it wouldn't even have to have keyless start, heated/cooled seats, etc. and I'd still love owning a brand new W126.
It makes me wonder what a 221 would cost if it were stripped down to the modest 1988 techno features in comparison to today's cars????
The W221 is a bargain when one considers how well it is built yet at the same time containing so many updated and modern techno features.
I also loved the W140 , but when I look back on its lack of today's techno/safety/comfy features, it was way overpriced. My 2007 S600 is only about $10K higher than a 1994 S600 and the 1994 S600 didn't have Nav, bluetooth phone, dual sunroof, keyless start, driver's dynamic seats, distronic cruise, DVD/CD player standard, parktronic, the current bullet proof V12 engine, electric rear side window sunshades, current safety features of which I can't remember all of them, blind spot assist (mine doesn't have it but I'll count it).
All in all, I find the W221 is the benchmark luxury car with only Audi A8 sitting at the same table. The Audi is the only VAG (VW/Audi group) product which seems to have succeeded in bringing the quality of a VAG car and marrying it with the comfort and luxury features demanded by a luxury car owner. The VW Phaeton/Bentley Spur are probably the only cars that are at the top in terms of structural and material craftmanship details. I've owned a Phaeton and seen the factory in Dresden where they are built and the requirements of build quality are second to none. However, the Phaeton and the Bentley have astounding high numbers of electronic nuisances/gremlins and would cause the ratings of consumer satisfaction to drop deeply. They possess gremlins of fault messages constantly popping up confusing and aggravating the owner who doesn't take the time to self-rectify and understand what is causing the often minor warnings. An example would be "workshop visit required" message popping up for every little thing such as gas nozzle cap being loose when in fact the slightest temperature change causes pressure changes within the gas tank sending this pointless warning to the driver's attention. The average person would be in the VW/Bentley shop once a week if they responded to the countless harmless warning pop ups on the screen. At least MBs don't have this problem.
It makes me wonder what a 221 would cost if it were stripped down to the modest 1988 techno features in comparison to today's cars????
The W221 is a bargain when one considers how well it is built yet at the same time containing so many updated and modern techno features.
I also loved the W140 , but when I look back on its lack of today's techno/safety/comfy features, it was way overpriced. My 2007 S600 is only about $10K higher than a 1994 S600 and the 1994 S600 didn't have Nav, bluetooth phone, dual sunroof, keyless start, driver's dynamic seats, distronic cruise, DVD/CD player standard, parktronic, the current bullet proof V12 engine, electric rear side window sunshades, current safety features of which I can't remember all of them, blind spot assist (mine doesn't have it but I'll count it).
All in all, I find the W221 is the benchmark luxury car with only Audi A8 sitting at the same table. The Audi is the only VAG (VW/Audi group) product which seems to have succeeded in bringing the quality of a VAG car and marrying it with the comfort and luxury features demanded by a luxury car owner. The VW Phaeton/Bentley Spur are probably the only cars that are at the top in terms of structural and material craftmanship details. I've owned a Phaeton and seen the factory in Dresden where they are built and the requirements of build quality are second to none. However, the Phaeton and the Bentley have astounding high numbers of electronic nuisances/gremlins and would cause the ratings of consumer satisfaction to drop deeply. They possess gremlins of fault messages constantly popping up confusing and aggravating the owner who doesn't take the time to self-rectify and understand what is causing the often minor warnings. An example would be "workshop visit required" message popping up for every little thing such as gas nozzle cap being loose when in fact the slightest temperature change causes pressure changes within the gas tank sending this pointless warning to the driver's attention. The average person would be in the VW/Bentley shop once a week if they responded to the countless harmless warning pop ups on the screen. At least MBs don't have this problem.
06-12-2008, 06:56 AM
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Yes the W126 was a very special Mercedes-Benz. My first real experience with one was driving a 300SE. It had to be sometime after they were out of production like 1992-1993, but shockingly the salesman let me drive it and all by myself too! Uh...I was only 19 at the time! I drove that car so fast the road appeared to be coming to a point! The I6 in that car was a smooth as a V8, just not as powerful. The real lust object for me during that era was the coupe version, the 560SEC. Now that thing out-classed anything on the road during its day.
M
M
06-12-2008, 09:01 AM
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Just for your information I have a Nautik blue 560 SEC with full grey leather in mint condition but I want to start to dream about a modern SEC which I find in the new CL and the new dream then is the CL 65 AMG with an ethanol conversion (I live in Sweden)
Where can you find production figures of the different S-classes?
but I want to start to dream about a modern SEC which I find in the new CL and the new dream then is the CL 65 AMG with an ethanol conversion (I live in Sweden)Where can you find production figures of the different S-classes?
06-12-2008, 11:40 AM
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Several MB's Superperformance MK III Cobra
Yes the W126 was a very special Mercedes-Benz. My first real experience with one was driving a 300SE. It had to be sometime after they were out of production like 1992-1993, but shockingly the salesman let me drive it and all by myself too! Uh...I was only 19 at the time! I drove that car so fast the road appeared to be coming to a point! The I6 in that car was a smooth as a V8, just not as powerful. The real lust object for me during that era was the coupe version, the 560SEC. Now that thing out-classed anything on the road during its day.
M
M
In regards to the comparison of the interior with the A8, the Designo interiors are not only equal but in my estimation much more stunning than any A8. My wife's car has the Designo porcelain interior that is as beautiful as any that I have seen. Not only is it pleasing to the eye the aroma of the leather is as good as a Jaguar , Bentley or Aston.
06-12-2008, 02:49 PM
#19
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'09 S63 AMG
trumpet1 - I understand your love for MB. Heck, I own one too, but let's not sell the others short, especially when it comes to Lexus. As I've said on prev. posts, the LS is quite a car and gives the S a run for it's money.
Are there differences betw. Lexus and MB? Sure. But those differences don't necessarily mean the S is better. They are different designs that appeal to different people but when it comes to HANDLING and SECURITY, I doubt you'll find anything the S has that makes it a superior car.
Audi is nice, probably WAY better designed in the interior than the S, but I wouldn't touch one with a 10ft. pole.
Are there differences betw. Lexus and MB? Sure. But those differences don't necessarily mean the S is better. They are different designs that appeal to different people but when it comes to HANDLING and SECURITY, I doubt you'll find anything the S has that makes it a superior car.
Audi is nice, probably WAY better designed in the interior than the S, but I wouldn't touch one with a 10ft. pole.
06-12-2008, 05:14 PM
#20
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'08 M5, '10 Land Cruiser
What I will say is that I like Lexus, but handling and braking is not quite up to par with the Germans. Various tests show this and my personal experience tells me this too. Reliability is another story though. Getting stranded in Oakland is less likely in a Lexus than a BMW or MB you know, WSH.
Last edited by Carl Lassiter; 06-12-2008 at 05:16 PM.
06-12-2008, 10:36 PM
#21
trumpet1 - I understand your love for MB. Heck, I own one too, but let's not sell the others short, especially when it comes to Lexus. As I've said on prev. posts, the LS is quite a car and gives the S a run for it's money.
Are there differences betw. Lexus and MB? Sure. But those differences don't necessarily mean the S is better. They are different designs that appeal to different people but when it comes to HANDLING and SECURITY, I doubt you'll find anything the S has that makes it a superior car.
Audi is nice, probably WAY better designed in the interior than the S, but I wouldn't touch one with a 10ft. pole.
Are there differences betw. Lexus and MB? Sure. But those differences don't necessarily mean the S is better. They are different designs that appeal to different people but when it comes to HANDLING and SECURITY, I doubt you'll find anything the S has that makes it a superior car.
Audi is nice, probably WAY better designed in the interior than the S, but I wouldn't touch one with a 10ft. pole.
06-12-2008, 10:46 PM
#22
I have to agree with so many comments above as you can certainly distinguish who is who amongst loyal MB fans. I LOVED the W126!!! I don't know how many times I jumped in my little VW Rabbit when I was young just to go down to the local MB dealership (where I bought my current MB) and fantasize about owning one of those classy beauties. The materials were just unmatched by any other car in its day. I remember finally getting to ride in a new one back in 1988 (560SEL) and was just amazed at how nice it rode and how secure I felt in it. The design of that car still is awesome and almost immune to "style dating". If it were re-introduced with a few of the modern techno features such as car phone and distronic, I would buy one. Heck, it wouldn't even have to have keyless start, heated/cooled seats, etc. and I'd still love owning a brand new W126.
It makes me wonder what a 221 would cost if it were stripped down to the modest 1988 techno features in comparison to today's cars????
The W221 is a bargain when one considers how well it is built yet at the same time containing so many updated and modern techno features.
I also loved the W140 , but when I look back on its lack of today's techno/safety/comfy features, it was way overpriced. My 2007 S600 is only about $10K higher than a 1994 S600 and the 1994 S600 didn't have Nav, bluetooth phone, dual sunroof, keyless start, driver's dynamic seats, distronic cruise, DVD/CD player standard, parktronic, the current bullet proof V12 engine, electric rear side window sunshades, current safety features of which I can't remember all of them, blind spot assist (mine doesn't have it but I'll count it).
All in all, I find the W221 is the benchmark luxury car with only Audi A8 sitting at the same table. The Audi is the only VAG (VW/Audi group) product which seems to have succeeded in bringing the quality of a VAG car and marrying it with the comfort and luxury features demanded by a luxury car owner. The VW Phaeton/Bentley Spur are probably the only cars that are at the top in terms of structural and material craftmanship details. I've owned a Phaeton and seen the factory in Dresden where they are built and the requirements of build quality are second to none. However, the Phaeton and the Bentley have astounding high numbers of electronic nuisances/gremlins and would cause the ratings of consumer satisfaction to drop deeply. They possess gremlins of fault messages constantly popping up confusing and aggravating the owner who doesn't take the time to self-rectify and understand what is causing the often minor warnings. An example would be "workshop visit required" message popping up for every little thing such as gas nozzle cap being loose when in fact the slightest temperature change causes pressure changes within the gas tank sending this pointless warning to the driver's attention. The average person would be in the VW/Bentley shop once a week if they responded to the countless harmless warning pop ups on the screen. At least MBs don't have this problem.
It makes me wonder what a 221 would cost if it were stripped down to the modest 1988 techno features in comparison to today's cars????
The W221 is a bargain when one considers how well it is built yet at the same time containing so many updated and modern techno features.
I also loved the W140 , but when I look back on its lack of today's techno/safety/comfy features, it was way overpriced. My 2007 S600 is only about $10K higher than a 1994 S600 and the 1994 S600 didn't have Nav, bluetooth phone, dual sunroof, keyless start, driver's dynamic seats, distronic cruise, DVD/CD player standard, parktronic, the current bullet proof V12 engine, electric rear side window sunshades, current safety features of which I can't remember all of them, blind spot assist (mine doesn't have it but I'll count it).
All in all, I find the W221 is the benchmark luxury car with only Audi A8 sitting at the same table. The Audi is the only VAG (VW/Audi group) product which seems to have succeeded in bringing the quality of a VAG car and marrying it with the comfort and luxury features demanded by a luxury car owner. The VW Phaeton/Bentley Spur are probably the only cars that are at the top in terms of structural and material craftmanship details. I've owned a Phaeton and seen the factory in Dresden where they are built and the requirements of build quality are second to none. However, the Phaeton and the Bentley have astounding high numbers of electronic nuisances/gremlins and would cause the ratings of consumer satisfaction to drop deeply. They possess gremlins of fault messages constantly popping up confusing and aggravating the owner who doesn't take the time to self-rectify and understand what is causing the often minor warnings. An example would be "workshop visit required" message popping up for every little thing such as gas nozzle cap being loose when in fact the slightest temperature change causes pressure changes within the gas tank sending this pointless warning to the driver's attention. The average person would be in the VW/Bentley shop once a week if they responded to the countless harmless warning pop ups on the screen. At least MBs don't have this problem.
06-13-2008, 01:08 AM
#23
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'09 S63 AMG
Thanks for the response. I have never actually owned an A8 but I test drove one about 3 weeks ago and was impressed completely (only a 5 mile drive though). I have to ask, what is it though that makes you steer away from Audi? Is it the past quality issues, previous experiences with owning one, a neighbor's opinion, etc."??? I respect your opinion, just wondering why you seem to steer away from them. Not doubting your opinion, just wondering if you've had an experience in some way to come to that conclusion. I'm not bias in any way. I'm bias towards MB though. I believe we now own the best of the best.
VW
Quite possibly the worst, most overrated car company in the world.
I can't stand the site of anything VW - detest everything about their dealerships. One word describes their operation:
SLEAZE.
In case you are wondering why, here's a little snippet about experiences at a the same VW dealership (Charles Maund) I went to a few months ago. My writeup is by "Mario" under the "Charles Maund VW" section.
As far as Audi, it's their past issues (which were numerous BTW) and grossly underpowered engines that steer me away.
Last edited by AustinGuy; 06-13-2008 at 01:20 AM.
06-13-2008, 01:26 AM
#24
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Are there differences betw. Lexus and MB? Sure. But those differences don't necessarily mean the S is better. They are different designs that appeal to different people but when it comes to HANDLING and SECURITY, I doubt you'll find anything the S has that makes it a superior car.
Nonsense. A S-Class stops, steers and handles better than a Lexus LS. Nothing is more "secure" than that. A S550 with the ABC will trounce any version of the LS in the handling department and it doesn't kill the ride either.
A Lexus LS is for people who graduated from an old-school Cadillac or modern Buick. A Lexus LS simply doesn't drive as well for a driver (not a commuter) as the German cars do.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 06-13-2008 at 01:36 AM.
06-13-2008, 01:30 AM
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
I owned a 1991 560SEL for 13 years before I sold it to a friend. I recently bought a 2008 Designo S550 for my wife and the first thing that came to my mind was "Here is the replacement for the SEL". While the SEL was a truly great car it was light years behind the new S class in terms of technologybut the technology did not exist at that time. That one was truly German engineering at its peak; no cup holders, the driver's side mirror was adjusted manually(no electric motors), seats as firm as you could find, a truly advanced hydraulic rear suspension, thick sheet metal and inspected meticulously before being released from the factory. With all of that in mind my SEL which was fully optioned ( rear window blind, lumbar controlled seats, ESP or whatever they called it back then had a sticker of close to $94,000. Looking at that compared to the price of the new S class the car was extremely expensive for the time.
In regards to the comparison of the interior with the A8, the Designo interiors are not only equal but in my estimation much more stunning than any A8. My wife's car has the Designo porcelain interior that is as beautiful as any that I have seen. Not only is it pleasing to the eye the aroma of the leather is as good as a Jaguar , Bentley or Aston.
In regards to the comparison of the interior with the A8, the Designo interiors are not only equal but in my estimation much more stunning than any A8. My wife's car has the Designo porcelain interior that is as beautiful as any that I have seen. Not only is it pleasing to the eye the aroma of the leather is as good as a Jaguar , Bentley or Aston.
Sounds like you're another owner that had a great experience/memories of the W126, there are many like you out there.
I agree Mercedes' designo interiors are likely better, but Audi also has special optional interiors too from their quattro GmBh catalogue, they're equally stunning IMO. Either way we're splitting hairs, both Audi and Mercedes both crush the segment when it comes to interiors.
M
