Mike5215

...For the W221 Harman Kardon Logic 7 System? Read On:



I was reading an article about Focal's new line of vehicle specific plug and play high end speakers for 08 and up BMWs. These are speakers with the identical footprint and mounting configuration of the OEM speakers, made to work with the OEM amp but with vastly improved fidelity.

Focal makes some incredibly high quality (and expensive) car audio speakers, and I was thinking how cool it would be if they did something for us. Then I recalled that BMW uses Harman Kardon gear in their cars. I had a W221 front door speaker module that I picked up on EBay so I could experiment with replacement speakers, so I grabbed it and did a quick comparison.

The OEM module has an 8" shallow mount woofer, a 4" midrange and a 1" tweeter, and it looks like those sum '*****es at Harman Kardon just pulled our speakers right off of their parts shelf.

Apparently there's enough global dissatisfaction with the stock H&K sound from these specific components that Focal bothered to develop and build a product line just to address it.

I took a trip to our local Focal distributor and they agreed the Focal IFBMW-S line looks to be identical to the array in the W221. He's going to call and speak with his Focal rep in the morning to confirm, and we have a set on order. (I also had him audition the stock audio versus my Aux-In set up and he was blown away not so much by how good my mod sounded, but more how incredibly thin and hollow the stock audio is in comparison.)

This is great news for owners looking to significantly upgrade their audio quality without making any modifications to the car or the COMAND integration, and without tearing the car apart to install.

I'll update with progress as things move along. It's going to be pricey at $679 for the pair of 4" 2-way components, and $500 for each 8" Sub. plus install, and that's without touching the rear door speakers, the sub on the parcel shelf, or the center channel on the dash, but it's not like I'm going to stick some Kenwoods in there and be happy either.

More about the Focal components here:

http://focal-america.com/wp-content/...IFBMW-S_gb.pdf

http://focal-america.com/wp-content/...FBMWSub_GB.pdf

new550

Looks interesting !

njsdavis

Good Research. Yeah I hate the stock sound myself. Waiting for the update...........

xabo

Any idea if these are compatible with the W216 CL?

Mike5215

I'd say yes, at least as far as the 2 way components are concerned. Looks like the same 4" mid range and 1" tweeter as the 221. Not sure about where the woofer in the 216 lives but if you find it take a pic. I'm guessing you'll find the 8" shallow mount there. Disappointing that they used that same horrible, shrill midrange in the CL.

This is a W216 CL door speaker module:

Mike5215

My research consisted of sitting on the crapper reading a Crutchfield catalog and admiring a $700 Focal Component speaker set made for a 3 series BMW.

Then I recognized that unusual triangular mount from the 4" on the 221, and .then I realized that Harman Kardon is BMW's supplier for mid-grade systems, and I'm sure they didn't design two totally different crappy systems for us and BMW.

Then I got the hell out of there because my crap was finished like ten minutes ago and my *** was getting numb.

I've been fighting with the H&K since I bought the car. See my sig for the amount of processing I use to get something reasonably decent sounding. I'd given up finding speakers that would a) drop in without cutting or fabrication, and b) get sufficient power from the existing amp, so I'm really stoked to come across the Focal stuff. It has a great reputation for build quality and for smooth, rich, clear sound.

We'll see. I still need to address the two rear door speakers. I plan on going 100% Focal.

Mike5215

Update: Both the Focal rep and the Lead Installer at the shop independently recommended the Focal KRC100 over the drop-ins in terms of bang for the buck. The KRC is one level below their top line, whereas with the drop ins you're paying a premium for convenience with a lower quality. Money is about the same, but big step up especially in the tweeters and it comes with an adjustable cross-over. Downside is that it requires some minor modification to the OEM module. Went with the drop in 8" sub-woofer from the previous post. Should have it in the car next week.

The tweeters are kind of cool so I'm leaning toward a flush surface mount using the Focal grilles. Here's the whole front set up, $1600 plus labor. I'll let you know if it's worth it

dafireman12

Interesting... Great find! Please post results.

njsdavis

what mods are you projecting or did the reps tell you may be required? Is the wiring still plug and play and the factory amp etc still have the power to support the speakers?

Hopefully the modifications needed will only concern the mounting of the speakers themselves and cutting or splicing wires and adding separate amps etc. Get pictures if you can of the inside of the door during the installation before its all closed up and booming!!

Checking ebay now to order my 100krs. Looks legit so far though.

what is the model for the shallow mount subs because i can not find it separately, it only shows up on the focal site as a part the package IFBMW c/s. Focal 100 krs came up no problem, but having trouble finding the sub.

Mike5215

My number one requirement was that the existing amp be sufficient to drive the new components. Focal is assuring us it will. In the case of the "drop in" 4" woofers the only modification would have been to the speaker wiring harness since it's configured for a BMW connector. With the 8" sub there will be some very minor work on the module since the footprint is slightly broader around the mounting holes , and we'll need to address the BMW connector there as well.

In terms of substituting the KRS's, the woofers are very similar to the drop ins, but with a different cone material and higher power handling on the top end. They also have a different mounting config so they'll require some modifications to the module. The big difference between the KRS and the drop-ins is in the upgraded tweeter, and the adjustable cross overs.

Here's a link to a vendor for the sub: ($100 cheaper too )

http://www.pacificstereo.com/focal-ifbmw-sub.html

Mike5215

Update: The Focal KRC100's are here and I got my hands on them today. Very nicely crafted speakers, like little jewels. We're waiting for the subs, which are back ordered till June. I decided to go ahead with the KRC 100 install Friday and keep the HK door subs for now.

Since that freed up $1000, here's an interesting wrinkle I'm moving forward with: The Prima 8.9 DSP amplifier to make all of the car's sources sound great.

There are two issues with the H&K system. In order of priority they are:

1) Poor factory EQ built in to the OEM amplifier.
2) Overly bright 3-way speakers in the front doors.

If you cure the EQ problem, the factory speakers perform well. The sound through my stock H&K system (running through an Equalizer and an external DAC into the Aux In) sounds entirely different than your stock H&K system, and the difference is entirely in the EQ. Speaker replacement ranks a distant 2nd.

For owners who want better sound but are reluctant to clutter up the cabin with a mobile device, and who want to use internal sources like Music Register, the SD/PCMIA slot, USB stick or optical drives, and who want to retain COMAND control of their music, see song info onscreen and retain steering wheel controls, you'll need a series of devices installed on the output side of the factory amp as follows:

-Line converter, to step down the high-power signal coming from the factory amp back to a low voltage signal that can be processed, equalized and passed on to an aftermarket amp.

-Digital Signal Processor, to allow the application of EQ compensation as well as sound field control.

-External multichannel amplifier, to pass the corrected audio to the car's speakers.

The new Prima 8.9 by Audison ($1000) is an all-in-one component combining a line output converter, a powerful DSP and a multichannel amplifier intended specifically for OEM integration.

It can be configured in several ways, but the optimal solution for the W221 appears to be to use the 8 powered output channels as diagrammed: When each speaker in the system has its own dedicated channel, you get the highest possible level of control over the sound.

Note that the three 4" surround speakers (center dash and rear parcel shelf) are omitted, and the sub gets an un-powered signal from the Prima that must in turn be amplified by a small mono amp. With respect to the loss of the "surround" speakers, there is so much control and flexibility in the Prima's digital signal processing you can easily recreate whatever ambient sound you've lost.



Take a moment to geek out on the grab of the Prima's PC configuration screen. Imagine that level of control for each and every individual speaker for equalization, cross over, volume and delay and you begin to see the possibilities.

If that screen grab frightens and confuses you, don't worry. Your installer has a whole kit that sets up multiple microphones in the car and allows the Prima to automatically self-configure. You can always go back in for fine tuning.

Audison has also announced plans to host a configuration file database, where users can upload and share their vehicle specific configs with other users.

I'll continue to explore this and keep you updated. One area I haven't given up on is a digital interface that would grab the signal before it reached the factory amp and pass it through as an optic (digital) signal to the Prima via Toslink cable, eliminating the need to line-convert the high powered analog signal from the factory amp at all.

MoBridge makes one for the W220 but so far I haven't found a unit for the W221. Here's the manual for the Prima:

http://www.audison.eu/download.php?f..._manual_manual

Mike5215

The KRC100 components are almost installed. I had the shop apply sound deadening material over the entire inner doors and they wrapped all the wires in special tape to keep them from rattling as well. Although the door speakers don't produce much bass stock, after the Aux In EQ mod they hit hard and can rattle the doors.

Stock door:


New Focal 4" midrange speaker installed, Hushmat applied:



The 4" woofers went into the factory opening easily after one of the four mounting ears were removed. The tweeters are a little larger than OEM so the plastic sail panel has to be modified as well. (Had we gone with the IFBMW-S components even this step wouldn't have been necessary.)



I should have the car back tomorrow and I'll be able to determine if the upgrade is worthwhile.

Mike5215

The Focals are in and in short I currently would not recommend this mod. They manage to exacerbate the main problem with the HK system, which is excessively bright mid range.

The Focals do sound clearer and cleaner but the mid-highs are much more prominent and are now beyond the range of the outboard EQ to compensate.

My options now are to move forward with a system wide DSP , or reverse the mod and reinstall the OEM speakers, or find something in the middle. Stay tuned.

Jason B

Thanks Mike. It's great you are able to do this stuff and keep us all informed. I would be quite interesting if your homemade mods, and aftermarket eq etc, ends up being the best setup. It's like the factory speakers have a lot of potential, that's been hidden by a muddy factory electronics with no adjustments.

I'm ok with the factory system, but it's really not much better than a factory high-end system from 2002.

Mike5215

Any upgrade to the HK system has to address the problem with the factory EQ first. Changing speakers won't get you there because the speakers aren't terrible and the amp is decent as well.

You can either fix the EQ at the source by using Aux In, or globally by adding a line converter, a digital signal processor and outboard amps after the factory amp. That set up will run you around $3,000 installed.

I'd recommend trying the glove box EQ and DAC mod for under $400 first to see if you like the system once the EQ has been compensated. That's a very inexpensive way to test the waters. (Or skip the DAC and do just the EQ for around $100

In my case I added a second EQ to the signal chain today and that gave me a total of 24db of adjustment range over five bands, which was enough to adequately tune the system to the new Focals. They're terrific speakers in the mids and highs but not worth the $700. The existing HK speakers actually come pretty close in terms of performance.

Bottom line: Existing 600 watt 13 channel digital amp and existing speaker array is capable of high end sound but is hobbled by a poor factory EQ. The upgrade path has to start with addressing the EQ.

Super Salami

Thanks for taking the time to provide us all with this information, it's a great read. I have 2 sets of Focal K2 Power's in my drawer that I pulled from my last car so it's nice to see your honesty in saying you don't recommend the Focal upgrade. I feel a lot of people would have just said it was worth it to convince them it was money well spent. I have done the glovebox eq route and I am thoroughly impressed with it. If people are reading any of this, that has to be your first attempt at improving your sound system, it's so cheap and the results are night/day from stock.

Looking forward to what else comes from your trials...

Mike5215

My pain is the forum's gain. It sucks to spend $1,100 on an upgrade that doesn't perform as expected, but it's much worse to just live with it because it's too painful to accept the alternative (which is that the money is gone either way, so if they have to come out, they have to come out.)

I spoke with the shop and we're going to open up the doors again to see if there's anything in the crossovers that might help. Meanwhile, I have a Plan B. Back when I was auditioning 4" woofers against the stock speaker I got really good results from a lowly $49 MTX coaxial with the tweeter snipped.

With the doors opened up we'll try the MTX. If it's not an improvement we'll go back to the OEM, although I may take the opportunity to install some attenuating foam over the OEM woofer to take some of the edge off.

I also have a spare set of tweeters from a W220 Bose system that I really liked, so those may get swapped in for the OEM tweets. I'll keep futzing with it until I get it where I want.

Thanks for the feedback on the glovebox EQ mod. I'm amazed more owners haven't done it given the bang for the buck.

Mike5215

Update:

The Focals may not be a total loss. After going through the installation manual I noted that there are two points of adjustment on the crossover. One lets you decrease the output to the tweeters by 3 or 6db. That's at -6db now.

The other switch can boost the mid-range on the woofer and is indicated for installations that are low in the doors (like ours). I'm guessing the installer has the boost set high, which is exactly the opposite of what I wanted.

I'm taking the car in tomorrow to have the mid-range boost switched off. If that does the trick I'll let you know. If not it's back to the drawing board.

Super Salami

Oh yeah, hopefully adjusting that crossover will make it all better. Just pulled mine from my drawer and see there's a switch for either 'Mid High' or 'Mid Flat' and mine is on 'Mid Flat'. There are also what looks like 3 db toggles; -1, -2, -4. My -2db is pushed down lower than the others. Then again these were part of an entire system overhaul so what you need may still be entirely different.

Mike5215

Well I just pulled the lower corners of the door panels loose, got my hand in there and put the crossover setting to "Hi" (as if the speakers were mounted high on the door, i.e. no midrange boost.

That smoothed things out a great deal, but I still felt the tweets were way too aggressive and overpowering, so I swapped in a set of Bose tweeters from a W220, put some music on and had a little Eureka moment right then and there.

I had to adjust the outboard EQ for the new speaker settings and as I was doing so I realized I had almost every frequency band set to "Flat", meaning I was using almost no equalization at all and it still sounded great.

Then I tried the internal sources (some DVD Audio discs, the Music Register) and they sounded awesome as well. Not quite as good as the results I was able to get going thru the DAC and tweaking the EQ, but very listenable.

It was so cool I gave it its own thread.

Bmccann101

Bump/subbed.