This whole thread has been pulled so far off topic that it needs to be gone.

 

Still a bunch of nothing outside of the drive system like I said before. Sticking an ipad in a car is not innovation. Hatred? Man don't be silly, I just find it funny how you guys go on about this car and outside of the drivetrain it is a non event IMO.

What part of the S-Class is NOT BEING OUTSOLD by the Telsa Model S do you not understand? That was last year, come into 2014 please.

You keep saying that people are buying the S over the S-Class but you don't know this. Just because you say you did, doesn't mean every single model S buyer did the same thing.

Oh I got what he was saying about the interior, a lot of excuses for it being cheap as hell and poorly assembled. NOTHING you can say will excuse the cheap materials or poor fit. Design is debatable, but cheap isn't.

Sorry you haven't proven anything here. This is a novel concept that isn't quite ready for prime time yet IMO.

M

 

What parts of sales facts from the last available year do you not understand? You can live in denial as long as you want but if you pull up the sales figures the Model S for last year it outsold the S class, the 7 series, the A8, and every other vehicles around $100K.

We can agree to disagree on the rest of the subjective facts but it's tough to disagree on published facts. We can see how the trends hold up for this year but the year is not yet over.

The two cars appeal to a segment of the same market and I'm just one such person out of many who drove both cars and decided I prefer one over the other.

Honestly I think the previous poster is right. This thread has meandered way out of course. It began when someone made a remark about how anyone could consider the Model S over an S class and I responded saying that's not so inconceivable but since then I think this topic has been beaten to death and many concerns have been brought up and discussed.

The bottom line is the two cars offers two different feature sets to customers with different priorities as Mike pointed out. @GermanCar, you are obviously not a fan of the Model S and that is fine. You can call it anything you like and that is your opinion. I am still a fan of the S class and I wish they offered an EV drivetrain option but who knows that might actually be coming and the upcoming plug in hybrid is a step in that direction.

Perhaps we can conclude this discussion with the point that the S class and the Model S offers different feature sets and driving characteristics that appeal to different segments of the market based on their priorities. Everything else is subjective and based on personal opinion and we can hopefully respectfully agree to disagree.

 

I think you haven't paid enough attention to the vast comments by both S and Model S owners or enthusiasts. That seems general consensus when one is presenting their case for one vs the other. Model S guys see the S Class as archaic as many here see the Model S as "cheap". Then there are those who appreciate both for what they are.

I really thought you were a *CAR* enthusiast.

To say that the Model S is "only innovative in drivetrain" is ridiculous, that is THE MOST important area to innovate. It's innovative in infotainment as well, another important (in modern ages) area to innovate. It innovated use of drivetrain weight to help dynamics (read: chassis). So we have disruptive innovation in drivetrain, chassis, technology, business practice, sustainability, "dealer" network style, use of space, etc.

Sorry, but you can't compare the S Class innovation to the Model S'. List one area any S Class has come close to achieving what the Model S did when it reintroduced a modern form of sustainable transportation? You won't be able to.

The S is one of the most important vehicles in history, no doubt, but the Model S leapfrogged it in innovation. The W222 is not an innovative car, no matter how you spin it. Old drivetrain, ancient trans (yes, it is one of THE WORST, don't buy into the "Mercedes designed it that way" bs, it has been problematic and groggy since it came out a decade ago, all 3 of my M-B's had issues, one needed a new valve body, you have numerous drivers getting new cars due to constantly glitchy 7G's, not to mention, it's just slow and doesn't react quickly, simply put: It's crap, especially considering how high the price of some cars that equip it go), recycled chassis with dimensions from a 2005 model, and a whole bunch of fluff to cover up the fact that it really didn't break much ground in anything, instead refined a winning formula (not a bad thing).

I agree, the S is the best car in the ICE large-car segment, it's undoubtedly the one I'd choose today, but the next 7 with extensive (truly innovative) CF build (considering the W222's carryover chassis barely eked out torsional rigidity supremacy over the current 7/5, I think the next 7 is going to once again hold a massive edge against the S in torsional rigidify due to innovative materials), the next gen drivetrain, dual screen display, improved dynamics, etc. is going to trounce it, I predict, and the Model S will still remain the most technically innovative choice in said segment (when counting EV's, of course).

The Model S innovates where it counts. It changed the entire auto industry, whether you like it or not.

"Hype" is not the word to throw at the Model S. That's a word that can more accurately be thrown at the many lazy offerings by various Germans who are resting on the laurels of their name. Case in point: The CLA with an interior, tech and driving dynamics (and FWD) that are inferior to certain basic Economy cars that cost even considerably less, or the BMW 4 Series "GC" which is one of many repackaged BMW hatchbacks with new marketing nomenclature signified by just an inch or few in height differential. To me, considering its lack of true innovation, I've criticized the W222 of being a bag of hype by the M-B faithful itself. The Model S is such a revolutionary product because it actually did walk the walk, and has lived up to the hype.

Would I like a better interior? Hell yes. I can't stand the various panel inaccuracies or some of the interior bits, but respect where it's due.

 

I really think we should wrap this up

We are at a point where we are now repeating everything that had been said multiple times before. I felt compelled to respond to some statements that I thought weren't fully factual or accurate based on the research I've done but we've now discussed and debated pretty much everything that came up. A handful could not handle the discussion but for the most part if was a respectful and passionate discussion, as you'd expect in a forum of car enthusiasts.

Let's try to wrap this up with the wholehearted admission that the S63 is indeed very bad *** and yet based on the personal preferences and priorities of a certain segment of the market that the Model S P85 is equally attractive to them. They are both at the top of the game for their respective categories. One being the premiere gasoline powered car you can buy and the other being the premiere electric car you can buy. At the end of the day they are both great cars and most people who pick one or the other would be quite happy with their purchase.

Peace and happy driving!

 

Man you're slow, I just gave you the most recent numbers. The Tesla Model S is NOT OUTSELLING THE S-CLASS ANYMORE. PERIOD.

If we agree to disagree then you can't tell me what is tough to agree with. The facts are clear. The Model S has a novel drive system, that is limited in range and use for anyone not driving previously set route and the interior is ****e for the price. FACTS.

This isn't personal opinion it is factual.

M

 

I thought you were too, but you see the problem is that you're one of those people who reads something and goes with that. A few years ago, Mercedes rode on water, with your experiences and knowledge and facts to back up why they were the best in the world. Now you seem to think that BMW is the best there is, but oh wait, now it is Tesla. That type of clueless rambling and wandering pretty much makes your take on things here meaningless to me and all the people that have placed you on their ignore list. You blow whichever way the wind blows and that is fine, but when you previously rag on something that was oh so holy to you it makes your opinion a fraud IMO. You were either lying about past Mercedes experiences or you were just clueless, either of which makes what you have to say not invalid. You simply never know what you're talking about where you're coming from.


Do you really not understand that the S-Class Mercedes-Benz and the Tesla Model S aren't playing the same game or do you really like to ask the same thing over and over, even if it isn't valid?

The S-Class IS NOT TRYING TO BE AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE. What part of that don't you get? If they were playing the same game then you would have a valid question. The S-Class innovates for its segment, the Model S for its segment. Hell the Model S is it's segment. The Model S didn't "leapfrog" anything pertaining to the S-Class because they aren't playing the same game.

None of what you "think" about the next 7-Series matters in the least until the car appears at the dealership.

Problematic transmissions in the S, that is true, but the part about how it shifts is BS at this point. They aren't going for sporty obviously. Not everyone has a problem with their transmission either, and Mercedes certainly isn't the worst on the market. Again more BS hyperbole that you love to throw around. They couldn't be the worst with stellar reliability ratings.

The rest of what you say about the W222 is contradictory and more of you usual clueless ramblings.

How can a car be recycled from 2005 when it is the best in the segment? How do you know any of this, are you an engineer? Lazy offering? You are clueless!!!! You aren't an engineer, you have no idea what goes into making a car. Now the W222 is a lazy effort, yet the car is the best in the segment? Just because they didn't change certain things that WORKED, they're lazy? OMG what a stupid post.


M

 

This thread will apparently not die...

There is one thing that is bugging me as it is continuously repeated in this thread (and in the media) are the sales figures and I think they are simply false.

I agree with Germancar that the Model S is not outselling the S-Class anymore but it's completely irrelevant because the Model S should be compared to the E/CLS Class sales or 5 Series sales. Why?

From a price perspective it's a much better fit since Tesla doesn't only sell fully loaded P85 models. They sell LOTS of lower-end and more bare bone 60 and 85 models.

E350 on the low-end, E550/CLS550 in the mid-range and E63S/CLS63S on the high-end seem to be a much better match.

From a marketing perspective, Tesla naturally loves to be matched with small volume luxury cars...

 

Comparing the first few months of a new body S Class to a Model S that's been out for going on years now, isn't truly accurate. You can put the Star symbol on about anything and people will rush out to buy it initially. In a year from now, granted the Model S will be another year older, the S vs Model S sales will be at least a little more accurate, with the S still in a more favorable condition. The next question is: When will the next generation of Model S come out? Will there be one even? I'm sure it'll have a replacement, but I've yet to hear what their plans are in terms of how long the car lasts.

Difference is that I continue to learn and change my views accordingly. Too many people stay stuck in their ways. If I find better cars, I'm out, I have no loyalty to M-B. Many M-B drivers seem to be loyal to M-B, no matter how many better products there are. I see countless guys state how disgruntled they are with M-B's, yet they still won't change, etc.

The W221 was considered by many to be best in segment, so M-B simply tweaked a working/winning formula. How's that hard to grasp?

Tell me, how's the W222 revolutionary? Chassis? No, it's a warmed over 2005 chassis, same exact proportions and all. Trans? Hell no. Engines? Not really. Magic Body Control? It's a good marketing effect, but we all know it's really a gimmick at this point. LED headlights? Welcome to old-school Audi. HUD? Finally catching up after years. "First car with no halogen bulbs anywhere"? Wow, very revolutionary. Perfume dispenser? Wow, so revolutionary as well.

Point being, the Model S is on another level in terms of innovation. The next 7 will have a chassis made largely of CF, the first of any mass-market production car, if I'm not mistaken, and two screens inside, and probably the dynamics to match such an incredibly innovative chassis construction. All while the W222 is still trucking along on a chassis barely stiffer than the F01/F10 cars with no innovative construction methods to match. How long can you keep apologizing for Mercedes' lack of foresight?

Funny thing is, I'd love a W222, it isn't the most intriguing car to me, but it's a large Mercedes done how large Mercedes' are supposed to be done. I'd get partially bored with one hand as I really enjoy a dynamic drive these days, but for pure, old-school M-B luxury, I'm all about a W222. But, for better or worse, it's M-B being same-ole' M-B, and a true CAR enthusiast will give credit to those who are pushing further boundaries in either related, or other ways.

It's not about the S Class trying to go EV or not. It's about the S Class being innovative in terms of leading the way to the future. Right now, it isn't in the least. Tesla showed us the future of drivetrain, and BMW is going to show the future of lightweight/high strength chassis with extensive CF use. I guess we'll see the W223 or W224 come out with CF use, an EV drivetrain and probably even a dual screen to boot (as they copy about everything BMW does) and M-B loyalists will act as if Mercedes invented all of them.

 

This idiotic focus on structural rigidity, as if that is the only measure of a chassis, is so misguided its almost difficult not to laugh. And the dimensions are the same? So what...they seem to work just fine.

Mercedes doesn't mess with success. They have other vehicles with which they can try more revolutionary things. Their flagship big sedan...don't think so.

 

WOW, what a cop out. "Yeah, it's our most expensive car, so we won't make it innovative at all". I'm not saying to mess with success, but it certainly could be better, to think otherwise is just nuts.

I bet Daimler wished you owned every share of their stock.

Actually, torsional rigidity is the key to many things, and it's precisely why I found my E Classes so lacking after a while. Mercedes has been behind BMW in structural integrity for some time now, and it reflects in the safety scores between the E and 5 Series (check NCAP) and you can literally feel it as you drive around. I find modern Mercedes' to feel flimsier than I'd expect Mercedes' too, and the answer is in the torsional integrity. Not to mention, torsional rigidity isn't just a number that comes out of nowhere, it is the determining factor of multiple major facets: Materials used to build the car, how well it's "screwed together", etc. How a chassis mates with its suspension is the most important aspect when it comes to driving dynamics, and that starts with the chassis i.e everything that goes into said chassis.

The 6 Series STILL is 2,500 km's more rigid than the W222 S! There's no excuse for that, as the 6 has been around since 2012! The next 7 with its innovative use of CF and lightweight/high strength materials is going to dominate the S Class.

Sorry, but the W221 didn't perfect large-car proportions. EVERY generation should be improved. The W222 getting *identical* dimensions to the W221 is straight up lazy, and it means that the W222 has proportions, wheelbase-to-length ratio of a 2005 car, while its competitors improve every generation.

Like I said, I'll take a W222 with a huge smile on my face, but let's call a spade a spade. Mercedes has been behind BMW in about everything of importance in modern times, playing copy or catchup, then Tesla bursts onto the scene and blows them both out of the water in terms of innovative drivetrain technology.

Point being: You can't really say that "A Tesla is only innovative in drivetrain" with a straight face, as if that's some kind of small feat, and you certainly can't call a W222 more innovative than a Model S no matter how you spin it. They aren't in the same innovative league really.

 

Some interesting Tesla news. Looks like Elon's ready to shake more things up. When he says something like this, I guarantee the auto industry are on pins and needles wondering what he's up to.

On less positive news for Tesla, it sounds like Musk is planning to get the company to where it wants it to get, and will resign the CEO role in no less than 4 years from now. The future of Tesla will be very interesting to watch unfold, regardless of whether you're for whatever odd reason a foe or a fan.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...tents/9920215/

"Elon Musk hints at surprise move on Tesla patents"

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk, in expressing surprise other automakers haven't made big commitments to electric cars, said Tuesday he's thinking of doing something "fairly controversial" regarding the company's patents. The surprising statement made at Tesla's shareholder meeting raised questions about whether he may be thinking of a particularly bold act, such as releasing some of Tesla's patented technology in order to foster further electric car development.

Tesla, he said, sold 22,500 cars last year and is on target to sell 35,000 this year because of key advantages, including longer range per charge than its electric car competitors.

No other automakers, he says, have taken electric cars as seriously. Most are doing what is "minimally required" under rules for non-polluting cars and abandon those projects altogether when the regulations are eliminated.

"I was hoping other companies would engage in more serious electric-car programs," he says. He says he applauds efforts to make electric cars better, like a longer range being promised for Nissan's Leaf. He says he applauds attempts to get to long ranges on mass-market priced cars even before Tesla, which expects to field a more moderately priced car -- around $35,000 -- in a couple of years. It will have a range per charge of about 200 miles.

The $5 billion battery pack gigafacility that will allow Tesla to ramp up production of the "affordable Tesla," Musk said that final site selection will not be made until the end of the year."

 

The range issue you mention would not apply to me and the driving habits of most Americans given the 250-300 mile range. If I drive 500 miles, I will stop for 30-45 minutes somewhere along the way, like most normal people, and that is enough time to recharge.

Based on sales, a large segment of buyers seem to disagree with your assertion about the interior of a Model S -- though it is not S class caliber and there is room for improvement. So you can continue with your opinions about the range and interior but apparently for a significant portion of the population looking to spend close to $100K for a vehicle they are not significant issues.

And speaking of facts here are some facts for you...

MBUSA press releases give US S-Class sales in January through April 2014 as 7,278 units. Model S sales for the same period is 8,066*. Last time I checked 7,278 < 8,066.

I'm not sure how much was spent to market the S class but these numbers for the Model S were achieved with essentially nothing spent on marketing as they can't sell any more vehicles than they can produce. When they ramp of production with proper advertizing the Model S numbers are likely to go higher.

The bottom line is there is a market for a premium, high performance, long range EV around $100K and that market is greater than the market for the S class around the same price range. You can keep thinking it is a **** bucket with with an electric drive-train but to many who test drive a Model S, it is a better car than anything available at around $100K.

---
Source:

* http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/05...-2014-ytd.html

 

Mercedes S class always wins best sedan in the world, since I was a young, and so on. There is a reason.

 

total opulence

 

In terms of innovation, something people are forgetting that MB brought (in both the S-Class, the E-Class, and soon the C-Class) is semi-autonomous driving. I'd say that's a pretty big deal. Adaptive cruise control, sure, many vehicles have that today but a system with steering control? Can't really think of a large-scale production vehicle that has it right now.

And it works exceedingly well. "Driving" in traffic is actually fun now. Even long distance driving on highways is measurably more relaxed because the steering inputs needed are so much less. If you're talking about US buyers, anything that helps the driver is very much of use.

Anyways, it's not like I care for one to be "better" than the other. I've got a Tesla on order myself.

As for the S63, I was tempted to get one but I wanted MBC/ABC as well. I hope they complete that 4-matic compact program soon.

 

You are absolutely right about that. The autonomous driving capabilities of the S class is phenomenal and almost unmatched by any other production car. It is not just the autonomous driving features but also the various driving aids that makes the S class so special to drive. The headlight system in the S class is perhaps the most advanced lighting system on a vehicle.

I think Mercedes is one of the most innovating car companies on the planet and they've arguably brought more automotive innovation than any other manufacturer. All the more perplexing it is for me to have to buy a Tesla as my next car because of Mercedes' lack of EV innovation. Hopefully after the plug-in S class rolls out with its 9 kWh battery pack, they will start working on a 80-100 kWh vehicle with a 300+ mile range.

What model Tesla did you order? AWD is supposed to be available next year and I'm waiting for that before I pull the trigger. Last I heard they are also finalizing the complement of radar and sensors to install in all the cars and their plan is to activate autonomous capabilities thereafter as software updates.

 

And that's the key right there. Tesla has achieved what it has with NO marketing. Like Apple before them, they learned the art of creating something so innovative that it cultivates a following based around a succinct, prestigious business model which means the media and people do the marketing for you. While Mercedes advertises more than any car company I think, I hear and see Mercedes adverts everywhere, IMO it gets tedious and starts to get antithesis to prestige when it becomes so prevalent.

MY big question, which I haven't heard Musk speak on, is what are the plans for the next gen Model S? Or will there be one? Will they just keep expanding the lineup with new cars (Model X, etc.) and the Model S will stay as it is for years until they finally rolled out their intended model lineup, to where they would then start focusing on next-gen renewals of existing models?

Or will the Model S get a facelift, even? Tesla seems to like their cars to not even have model years, and seem to be against the idea that good cars need marketable changes (or marketing, period) to get a popping-smoke effect going, to get into peoples heads. But, it hasn't had to yet. What happens when it does have to happen.

If there's one thing I'd like to see from Tesla, is an equivalent of an M Sport or AMG Sport Package for their Model S. I think with more Model S' popping up, Tesla will get in the danger-zone of a once-exotic car becoming commonplace (and "exotic" type cars age drastically faster than understated, more conventional ones when this happens), and diversity/variation is the key to maintaining a prestige or exclusivity factor for a Premium Car. Of course, again, Tesla, unlike the rest of the auto manufacturer culture, doesn't seem to like to waste time with the superfluous fluff, instead focus on the big picture stuff.

 

No thanks. I will not stop anywhere and wait for a 100K car to "charge". What is it a toy or a car?

You keep talking about sales like that is the end all of everything. It isn't and like I said before you don't know if every Tesla buyer looked at a S-Class and then passed. You simply don't know that.

Uh did you actually read the sales links you gave?

THEY ARE UNCONFIRMED ESTIMATES FOR THE TESLA MODEL S.

SO UH...TRY AGAIN....

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/08...sa-canada.html

EVEN WITH THE ESTIMATE THAT IS ONLY 6800 TESLA MODEL S CARS SOLD YTD THIS YEAR.

WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU GET?

THE MERCEDES S-CLASS HAS SOLD 7732 YTD.

Dude you can't even count!


PUT IN THE BRAND AND THE MODEL FOR EACH AND LOOK AT THE NUMBERS.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/p/sales-stats.html


YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.


Who said that they're wasn't a market for the car? Again, you're not sure as to what you're talking about. I said that it isn't a better car than the S-Class, that has been my position all along, but furthermore that it isn't an apples to apples comparison. One is a EV, the best of its breed in a class of one, and the S-Class is the best in a class of many. Different cars for different people. Nothing you say is going to make me think about the car any differently and you keep saying that "many think" this and many think that, but you don't know what they think nor do you know if ALL model S buyers looked at a S-Class and passed. Many in both camps likely didn't even consider the other car.

M

 

I agree it isn't accurate, but hey WEBSRFR went there with more sales = better car. He can't even get the numbers right by the links he provided.

Not anything. Mercedes has had some flops. R-Class being one of them.

There will be another Model S for sure at some point. If Tesla got into serious financial trouble I think their partner Daimler will step and raid their top box and keep it going. Just my take on it. You do touch another point though that hasn't been proven, if the car lasts long term. We don't know yet and to beat the S-Class you have got to do that.

Some due, but some don't. We've had this conversation before, and we BOTH changed course this time around. Though I did pick up an older S500, but that doesn't count to MBUSA.


So if that is the case, then what is your problem then?


See this is a classic bait and switch from you. Who said that the W222 was revolutionary? Who and where? OMG you keep going on about the same proportions, yet CAN YOU PROVIDE ONE TECHNICAL REASON WHY THEY WOULD CHANGE SOMETHING THAT WORKS AND WAS CONSIDERED CLASS BEST? WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT WHEN IT CLEARLY ISN'T NEEDED?

What the hell difference does it make what the wheelbase is or what chassis it is on? Does the car not work as advertised? You're too caught up in BS stuff that reads good on paper but doesn't hold water or make a difference on the road. MBC is not just a gimmick, it actually works. Thing is it is limited to what it can do and in the U.S. on our roads, but a mere gimmick it is not. I'm waiting for the technical reason why MB needed to change the wheelbase and how you KNOW FOR A FACT that the W222 sits on the exact same chassis as the W221 and what the problem is in the finished product if it does so?

WHAT DOES THE NEXT 7 SERIES HAVE TO DO WITH THE S-CLASS AND WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT IS ON THE ROAD NOW? All you have on the next 7-Series is speculation. Nothing more. Matterless in 2014.

Prove to me with your engineering degree or knowledge that the W222s chassis isn't solid enough for it intended purpose. YOU CAN'T. You're one of those dimwitted/gullible people who reads something like a stat on chassis rigidity and then thinks that because something is not at the same number or much higher that there is a problem, yet you have no more technical knowledge of it than anyone else here. NONE. Yet in the REAL WORLD, the S-Class is as solid as a bank vault, yet you're touting a number you don't know squat about.


A true car enthusiast knows what they're talking about and isn't gullible enough to believe one brand walks on water one min and then they're trash the next. You are no more a true car enthusiast than the man on the moon. You're clueless at best. Just a few years ago Mercedes-Benz was god, then BMW, now Tesla? NOT AN ENTHUSIAST at all.


Yes it actually is because the S-Class points the way for luxury car of its type. The Tesla doesn't have anywhere near the features or luxury of the S-Class, it isn't no where near as luxurious and it is limited in range. Hardly the future for MY MONEY. When Tesla makes a car that isn't as limited in range, that is just as luxurious, feature packed, as quiet and as proven as a S-Class then you'll have something. Not some half baked science project that needs more under body shielding to keep it from catching fire from road debris. The only thing futuristic about the Tesla is the drive system, the rest of the package is a 40-50K car at best. Anyone can stick an ipad in the dash.

Does the Tesla use CF, or is this about something you've read again (but isn't fact yet) about a BMW?


M

 

I wouldn't compare an S550 to a Tesla S and never to a S63

 

I guarantee you, in 20 years from now, people will read this comment and laugh, akin to the "earth is flat!" mind frame of the past.

How is "gassing" a car at some repulsive gas station and inhaling fumes, considered any better? It's FAR worse, far less advanced, far less clean frankly. What it IS, is more convenient, for now. However, jokes on you as MOST Model S drivers never have to pull over for anything re-charge related, while you're futzing about with a filthy gas handle on your beautiful yet horribly inefficient car, spending a car payment on it every month. Most Model S owners charge while at home, charge while parked in a parking lot, etc. As time goes, even charging while out, if need be, will be quick and with Tesla: Free.

As for the W222 chassis, sorry but it's an S Class. I want the best of everything. The chassis wheelbase-to-overhang proportions could be a lot better, and M-B could have invested more money into the car to improve them. EVERY new generation tends to get enhanced proportions, yet the S Class has stayed the same since 2005.... unacceptable to me. Why should an S Class just be "good enough"? It should be ahead of cars coming out in the future, and in many ways it's not. A torsional rigidity of 40,500 when its older competitors are already there (or slightly below, or slightly better) is impressive.... but not for how much M-B hyped the advancement of this car. M-B's should be bar-none the most solid cars in the industry, yet BMW is ahead of them here.

CF materials are a reality for future BMW production, starting on the 7 Series, along with an all new chassis that will (rest assured) improve on the already excellent proportions of the F01 7. To me, that's what a flagship is all about.

The Model S doesn't use CF to my knowledge (maybe it does), I was using BMW as an example there.

My point is that the W222 isn't really fundamentally extreme-advanced, IMO. And yes, lots of people hyped it up to be just that. It's a thorough car that does what it should do, but it doesn't go above and beyond. Most of the "innovations" are superfluous fluff that M-B's marketing dept feeds people as "innovation", and an interior that is staunchly richly modernized old-fashioned, which gives it the "we're not trying to pander to the sports car crowd" panache we come to expect from the S Class.

MBC is a total gimmick, really. Wow, so it absorbs some soft speed bumps. Cars from the 80's or 90's were already doing that. Where MBC is of value of from ABC, which is still the most advanced suspension on an S, and has been around since 1999.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it? Indeed, the S has a winning strategy and many people want a classical S when they get an S. But that isn't an excuse for resting on their laurels, which IMO Mercedes has somewhat done with the S. The next 7 is going to crush it, I think, but where it may lack is in that longstanding S Class panache, which M-B knows very well, try as they might, other manufacturers can never quite attain, yet at least.

 

I would and I'm not alone based on how many higher-end Model S vehicles are being sold at around the same price range.

The performance specs are just 3/10 of a second apart if you compare an S63 to a P85. Since the P85 has no transmission, in day to day driving, it can hit the high end of the performance specs each and every time you engage maximum acceleration more consistently whereas you need to have the transmission kick in at the right time in the right gear to deliver the high end of the performance specs for a gasoline engine with a mechanical transmission.

I'd personally get a P85 over an S63 and consider it a bargain for the performance I'd get for the price for the reasons that had been discussed earlier. They are both great cars for people who value different driving dynamics and differing priorities.

 

I compared the S550 to the Tesla Model S... For what we wanted the comparison ended up being a non-comparison, the S550 won hands down. The drivetrain of the Tesla is novel but the interior is not luxurious and practicality of long range EV is not yet feasible. (Yes, people are doing cross country trips in the Tesla, but they require detailed planning and long stops for charging, and no, I really don't want to stop at a campground to charge my $100k+ car.) Was not going to spend $100k+ on a car that still had practical infrastructure issues to work out over the next 5-10 years. We wanted a quiet luxury car that would see at least 1/3 of its cumulative miles on road trips, the convenience of quick refueling where ever we are and luxurious road performance. The infrastructure for charging is still a major issue to be resolved and I didn't want to pay $100k+ to be part of the cutting edge/beta program while they build out infrastructure and continue to improve charging speeds to be fast enough and also improve battery power densities. (Not to mention the need to dramatically improve the interior of the car).

It really tried to compare the S550 to the Tesla Model S but it was not a real fair comparison beyond the similarity of price tags. The BMW, Audi, Maserati and Porsche provide better luxury options but were too sport focused and the interior on the S550 was in a different league than those competitors. Those competitors have some catching up to do with the S Class.

Have had our S Class for 6 months and we absolutely love it. If I had to make the decision again today, would still buy the S Class (though I would add an option or two).

 

I agree they are both great cars and are for people who value different driving dynamics. That is why I don't think they are comparable even though the the P85 and the S550 are priced simillary. Again you cannot go wrong with either, but they are different. One is obiously electric and one is not. MB has the money for R&D and it is quite obvious that the new S-Class is one of the most advanced cars on the market. But again the Tesla is an advanced car as well, just in a different sense.

I would not get a P85 over an S63, I like to hear something when I hit the gas, that is why I have one I guess LOL. But that is what makes the world go around. It would be terribly boring if everyone drove an S-Class Mercedes!!