Streamliner

I no longer have a “need for speed.” I got that out of my system back in the 1960’s & 1970’s, when I used to drag race 427 Corvettes. Recently, my two sons-in-law took me to the Porsche Experience Center, where we all drove new Carrera S coupes on the track. When the instructor was showing me his skills on the road course, I had to ask him to back off, as It was pretty hairy. Even when I was doing launch control runs on their drag strip, I just wasn’t that into it. I’ll cruise on the Interstate at 75 or 80 sometimes, but as far as “spirited” driving goes, it’s just not my thing anymore. I’m into comfort these days and out of the approx 98 cars I have owned over my many years, I currently have “THE” most comfortable convertible I’ve ever driven, my SL450 with ABC and “THE” most comfortable sedan in my S560. Life is good!

Katie22

Got ya Streamliner, I drove an SL65 and yes its a very nice ride.

Streamliner

Now see, that is very interesting!
While my SL450 was on order, I became enamored with a gorgeous 2017 SL65 that was for sale in Atlanta. I just loved the look of the car and almost pulled the trigger. However, our friend Wolfman convinced me that I REALLY needed to test drive one before taking the leap and thank goodness, I took his advice! I found one for sale in San Diego and drove down there for a test drive. I HATED IT! It rode OK on really smooth asphalt, but when I drove down a lesser, more typical city street, I thought the car rode like a truck, very rough and heavy. My feeling is that the SL just wasn’t made to have that great big, heavy V12 hanging over the front axle. It sure was pretty though! Different strokes I guess.

Katie22

OK I got it your a Maybach sort of guy. How about one of these rare beauties I have personally seen two of them. Look closely to see what it is.

MTrauman

Interesting thoughts on the AMG SL. On a race track the SL is too soft (IMHO). Last year at Road Atlanta at the AMG Driving Academy Advanced I thought the SL was way to soft for a race track compared to the GTR. The GTR was just right for track driving. In fact the E63S that people complain about being too stiff also was a bit too heavy for a race track and a bit to soft. Katie is right on. The GT cars are a gem for the track and the street. Now I have to convince myself whether I should buy the GTR or the 2021/2022 C8 Corvette Z06 for the track. I am such a die hard MB fan that I can’t believe I am considering the vette but the C8 Corvette is an amazing car and the Z06 and ZR1 are going to be show stoppers on the track.

Streamliner

They had one or two of these here locally when they came out. The price was astonishing, as I recall.

As per my avatar--and the photos below--when MB brought out the Ocean Drive concept car, I just about swooned! That was it for me and I just could not wait until the car went into production! A big, S Class, FOUR DOOR convertible! I was ready to mortgage the house, as I REALLY wanted that car. But then, instead of doing something that required wold class engineering, instead of producing what would have surely been "THE" Mercedes-Benz "halo" car of the 21st Century, they cheaped out and gave us the S Class Cabriolet, a 2-door convertible, with cramped rear seats, that IMO does not drive nearly as nice as a W222 sedan nor nearly as nice as my SL. I really wanted to love the S Cabrio and drove the first year car and then the face lifted version, hoping that I would like it, but no soap. It's just my opinion, but I don't think it is a very good car. I didn't like the way the V8 model drove and I can't imagine the ride with the big V12 in there. Soon, they will put it out of its misery.

Streamliner

There was a guy in another forum here, who had an SL65AMG, I think a 2018. He had the carbon ceramic brakes and he took it to Sears Point where he took some hot laps. I guess he rode the brake pedal, because he absolutely FRIED the brakes, to the point where the rotors & calipers on the front needed to be replaced and they would not cover it under warranty. He wondered why the car had a "race" setting, if you couldn't even take it to the track for as few hot laps. He got it fixed for something over $10,000.00 and traded it for a Porsche GT2RS the next day. IMO, the SL is a boulevard cruiser and performs best in that role. If someone wants to go fast, the AMG GT line is the way to go. For comfort and that oh-so wonderful, retractable hard top, the dearly departed (they just stopped making them) R231 SL's are just the best.

emilner

Those are my sentiments exactly, except I think it is true for V8 and V12 SLs. A few years ago (I can't believe 7!!) I bought a new SL63 sight unseen. I didn't even know the color. The salesman dropped the car off at my house and it turned out to be a triple black beast. Pulling around the block and around the neighborhood I was very happy. As soon as I pulled onto some main roads I knew I had made a mistake. The ride in comfort mode was way too stiff for my liking. Maybe 25 years ago I would have been happy but I soon realized how much I prefer a smooth quiet ride. Luckily it was not a daily driver but nonetheless I traded it in on a 2015 S550 a year or so later. Much more my taste...

Speednet

I think way back at the beginning of this thread the OP asked how the S-class stacks up against the competition. So I thought I'd address that.

I have owned an Audi A8L since 2012, and last year went to the Audi dealer fully expecting to level-up to the latest version (because the V8 model was finally available). I love my current Audi so much that it was a no-brainer. So I went to the dealer to do the upgrade, sat in one, and instantly became sad that they ruined the A8.

Talk about a letdown. My Audi, which I believe has one of the best interiors of any car, basically looks and functions like any old cheap car now. Honestly the Q8 has a better interior. Yes, leathers are still good, but jeez, that huge slab of cheap shiny black plastic staring back at you is horrendous and is a fingerprint magnet. They took away nearly all the interior storage space. The interior is cramped. The seat controls require you to squeeze your hand uncomfortably between the door and seat. The touch screen controls are terrible. The exterior lost all of its distinctiveness. People still love the swooping LED headlights on the A8, but now they're as distinctive as the cheapest car in their lineup. No innovation.

So I went to the Mercedes dealer and after checking out the S560, it was pretty clear that it's a whole different playing level from the Audi. The test drive confirmed it. So now my S560 is due to be built in just a couple of days, hopefully arriving late March/early April. Fully decked out, nearly every option ticked. Even some rare options like night vision, 3D sound system, and magic sky control. Sadly, there is no way to order magic body control with the 4matic system, so I couldn't get MBC. (4matic is a must.)

So if you're comparing the S-class to an Audi A8, my recommendation is a strong vote for the S-class.

MBNUT1

Surprised to read that an SL drives better than a 2 door S Class.

Streamliner

The folks on the R231 forum know my story, but here is a brief synopsis: I wanted a new, luxury convertible. I drove the Carrera Cabriolet, the Carrera Turbo S Cabriolet, the Carrera Targa 4S, Bentley Continental, Ferrari California T, the SL550, the S560 Cabriolet and others. When all was said and done, the SL450 was my favorite. The fact that it happened to be the least expensive was amazing, but that was the way the cookie crumbled! When I swapped out the stock wheels for forged AMG wheels with Michelin A/S3+ non-run flat tires, the ride improved. When I installed the Ceramic Composite brakes, the ride improved a bit more. Mind you, my SL450 is quite the rare bird, ordered with Active Body Control (ABC), but it rides like a dream! These cars were so under appreciated and they do have their problems, such as horrible audio systems, but for what you get for the price, if properly optioned, they really are very special cars, punching well above their weight class.

Katie22

Streamliner. When we were looking to by a new car to replaced one of our Corvettes the short list was Jaguar F Type SVR, SL63 or 65, GTC, or 911 turbo s. My fav performance wise was the 911 but it did not have the looks of the other cars especially since the interior had yet to be updated. The GT blows away the Ftype performance wise. So that left me the SL or GT. I would have been happy with either.

absent

I share your sentiments.
Loved my S8 Plus, loved the interior and after seeing and driving the new A8 all I felt was severe disappointment and sadness, a great car fell victim to cost cutting and ended up being designed by the bean counters instead.

Speednet

To me, it seems less about bean counters designing the interior and more about Audi trying to appeal to a young demographic. Young people = MOAR SCREENS! so Audi tried to design everything as if it was a black rectangle. It is a terrible pendulum swing too far, designed for "young people" by people who don't understand young people. The exterior is "meh" as well, no longer using bold lines to establish character, but instead has large slabs that are offset by tiny folds. It's a pretty gutless design and very disappointing.

superangrypenguin

This is fairly akin to the pot calling the kettle black.

I know most of you haven't taken apart your sedans but I have personally taken apart (e.g. dashboard/firewall/engine area) the W222 and the 2019 A8. The S class has actually been fairly gutted by the bean counters versus the A8, and I'll provide some specific examples.

General things to the naked eye (whether or not you feel these materially impact anything is not the point of the discussion, but more so just some general observations).

1) The W222 does not have any headlight washers, the W221 did, and the A8 (and LS500) still do.
2) As far as I understand it, the W222's reverse camera does not have 'wash' capability, the A8 does (e.g. it sprays windshield washer fluid) (here in Canada, this is a BIG deal in the winter)
3) The W222 is louder than the A8 from a noise perspective. This is the result of some level of reduction in noise insulation, and this is even when compared to the W221, but then again, the 221 doesn't come with RFTs.

Of things to note that are not available to the naked eye.

1) You should see the amount of foam and 'carpet' that are on the backside of the A8's interior panels that no driver would ever see. For example, there's about 1.5" of foam behind the fuse cover panel in the driver's footwell area. That's...nuts. There's about 2" of foam underneath the steering wheel cover. I think I still have pictures, but this is all stuff they could have cut, and they didn't. If I look at the same panels in the W222, most of which are bare - but again, this is a tough apples to apples comparison because NVH mitigation can be done in a number of ways.
2) The W222 has soft close doors, as does the A8/LS/E class even, but the A8 has soft open doors (that's just....stupid.)

There's a long standing thread on Audiworld about ridiculous overeengineering examples in the A8, and I'm with them - it's a bit ridiculous, but there's a lot of it going on that I simply do not see in the W222. I mean, just take a look at how flimsy the post FL's cigarette ashtray piece feels or the amount of plastic that is now used in the interior.

That said, PRE FL W222s, in my opinion are great - and better than the Post FL 222s. There was a thread discussing this a few years back on this very forum. I'm not sure how well this will sit with readers here.

--

I'll stop here because I'm sure I'll be flamed to heavens because I said things not so nice about the 222.

As far as the screen comments go, that's baffling. The W222 has a ridiculous set of dual displays and they started this trend. I was very vocal about how upset I was about the dual screen setup in the new A8 and almost bought a 2018 as a result. After using it though, I was floored, but this is 'to each their own' sort of thing.

If bean counters got ahold of the A8, then I, of all people, would have seen it, and the car wouldn't now be the quietest sub 150K$ sedan money can buy right now, and a drastic improvement in noise reduction versus the D4.

//flame suit on.

And yes, I am younger than most of you, sure, but my tastes have always been drawn towards things older people like. I still spend money on Brioni suits, and that's not something most people my age even know about. But - the customers for these 6 figure cars are dropping, and boomers (no offense meant here) are retiring. They have to appeal to someone, and the fact that they got my money and not the Lexus LS500 says something (the LS500 specifically went after the younger market. The A8 did not, as far as I read).

absent

222 post facelift is better and more refined, drives better then before, period, had total of 5 of them and say this based on my own personal experience( and no, I did not bother to remove the dashboard in my S-Class nor my S8, what the hell for???).
Now for the bean counters, screens with haptic control and therefore total removal of physical switches ( as in A8 and Panamera) is much cheaper in mass production cars (as both in question) then running wires and engineering every little button.
Audi went cheap, MB is next with the upcoming S.
As for the foam, it is just some foam and it’s a cheap and easy way to reduce the noise, nothing special to be excited about.

superpop

I don't care about headlight washers and soft open doors, one thing I do care about though is resale value to a certain degree. This is where I think Merc has Audi and BMW in spades. last time I looked both Audi and BMW had some of the worst residual values over time, not the MB is not far behind but I think the S class does hold value better than the other 2. I live in the land of Amazon and Microsoft and everyone has an audi, they are stacked up like cordwood up here in the great PNW so that is a factor as well. S is a little less common. And don't get me started on Tesla and Subaru.

MTrauman

I suppose it depends on the S Class variant. In the US the S63 value drops like a rock like most AMGs. But I love the S63 so I guess this bean counter (Superangrypenguin does not like bean counters apparently) will just buck up and deal with the significant depreciation hit. Nothing really comes close to the '18/19/'20 S63 for performance and luxury in one package. I have driven alot of cars to come to that conclusion.

MTrauman

Superangrypenguin,

I chuckle when I read your posts since your screen name just matches the thought of someone that writes like you being super angry at the world. Sorry don't take it personal it is just a combination of your screen name and the way you write.

By the way what is wrong with the bean counters (I am one that owns and runs a business). Bean counters make the world go round!

superangrypenguin

I've been on MBW a long time and I think it's safe to say that most who know me know that superangrypenguin is just a name and nothing more - I certainly don't take it personally!

I dislike bean counters simply because, in this case, I love cars and I do, secretly, like it when things are built to the best it can be. I don't think any of us dislike the way the Mercedes lineup used to be built in the 90s, or the 80s, for that matter. Over the years, consumer preferences have changed (people aren't willing to pay for anything anymore) and bean counters have adjusted. It's just sad to see these behemoths change in time.

There's a lot of emotion in this thread and I see it, and it's quite alright. I still participate on here because I still love MB cars but sometimes people take things too far and mistake things for fact, but that's all part of the fun of participating on here I guess.

Back to the subject at hand - just because something has screens now doesn't mean it's any cheaper to make. I mean, take a look at MBUX - that must have cost a fortune to make, versus in the past, what, $0.02 in plastic parts and $0.04 of wiring? I find it funny the goal posts continue to move on here but I'm also keenly aware that I'm on a board of people who love their S classes :P

But yeah, all part of the fun.

I used to live where you live and worked for one of these two companies. From a pure marketshare perspective, I'm surprised you made this comment. Out of the 3 German brands, Audi has the least number of cars on the road, and the A8 is one of the rarest cars on the road today. For every A8 there is something like 10 or 15 S classes, and that, is one main reason I chose to buy one. S classes are a dime a dozen around Bellevue/Seattle/Redmond. I don't recall ever seeing an A8 in the wild around there.

That said surely you see the fallacy in comparing flagship models of these three brands versus just the brands themselves as a whole. We all know they are all whoring out their brand names with cheap s*itboxes these days.

It's one reason my next car is the Flying Spur, mainly because I actually want to own a car from a brand that is still exclusive. Audi/BMW/Mercedes are no longer seriously premium cars in my books although I'm not *quite* able to afford a Flying Spur yet. In about 5-10 years I should be able to though, although when I get there hopefully I smarten up and don't do such a financially stupid thing.

Speednet

Just because a car has "lots of foam" doesn't make it quieter. Perhaps it just means the engine is much louder than it should be, and they had to do something about it. I can say straight away that the S class is much quieter than the Audi. This from an Audi owner (me). Like I said, I'm driving an Audi A8L right now, and my S560 is being made in Germany probably as I write this.

Your messages reads as if I hate Audi. I don't. I love Audi and fully expected to do a quick upgrade to the new model. I hate what they did to the A8. You have completely missed the points I made about the interior, and instead chose to take my comments as an attack on the presence of screens in a car. Of course every car has screens these days. The point I'm making is that a screen is not the same as a giant slab of shiny black plastic taking up the majority of the dashboard and console. That was clearly designed by someone who is trying to design for what a young person would want, without understanding what a young person wants. Now if you want to go on about how great that giant slab of plastic is, the floor is yours.

Likewise, if you'd like to dispute my other complaints, such as the interior storage space deficit, the seat controls, the pathetically bad touch controls, etc., then go for it. But don't put words in my mouth.

I'll spot you the headlight washers. I suppose I'll have to rub the dirt of my Mercedes' headlights myself, rather than having the car do it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

superangrypenguin

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I will certainly never tell anyone their opinion is wrong. That said, it's a known fact, as tested not only by myself but with Car and Driver and numerous other car reviewers (this information is all public and even on this very thread), the S class is louder than the Audi.

That said in certain markets the Audi's dual pane windows are an option (in the US) so you may perhaps are not comparing apples to apples. It also sounds like to me that you're comparing the older Audi with the S class, and if so, then yes, you're right, the W222 is quieter than the D4, and by quite a bit. As I often say, you're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts, and if you want me to dig up this information and all of the reviews that disagree with you, I'm happy to do so. Some are subjective data, and with Car and Driver, it's objective data.

It would be very fascinating for all of you screen haters on here what your thoughts are going to be with the W223

I'll give you the interior storage space deficit in the new Audi. It's woeful. The seat controls took some getting used to, but I, do, for one, love the new haptic feedback (once you turn off the setting - it's hard to explain) and UI.

It seems to me, that on this thread there are a lot of more 'traditionally minded' people here - and that's neither here nor there and I am NOT in any way judging. I think the W223 will make the D5/A8 look old, and that's saying something so am most curious how all of you react to it!

MTrauman

Superangrypenguin,

Again you are making me chuckle! You should sit back and look at what you are saying. You contradict yourself every time you post.

First you say everyone is entitled to their own opinions AND I will never tell anyone their opinion is wrong. Then you contradict yourself by saying it is a known fact as tested by Car and Driver that the S class is louder. WHAT? You first said that you would never tell anyone their opinion is wrong and then you go on to make an argument that their opinion is wrong citing Car and Driver says so.

You really should take a look at how you write and what you say because you are simply trying to tell people their opinions are wrong and your opinion is correct because some other source say so. Man do you make me chuckle.

I guess my law degree did teach me something of how to analyze how people write and make arguments even though I do not practice law!

Katie22

Personally I think the best looking exterior car in the luxury car segment is the Cadillac CT6 but then I always liked the Cadillac edgy lines. With that said I avoid GM products for 1000 reasons that trump the nice looks of the Caddy for what lies beneath the looks is to cheap and junky for me.

if I am looking for a car to replace one of my Mercedes I promise I will do tons of research and study all the choices and buy the best product out there at the time.

PS Streamliner we are going to Cali next week. I will wave at ya from my likely cheap *** rental car........ Smiles

superangrypenguin

My last comment on here because this is getting silly. You are not the only lawyer on here, so don't make assumptions. I am a member of the Bar Association.

1) The poster in question is entitled to his own opinion that he feels the S class is quieter than the A8.
2) Objective data has proven otherwise.
3) Subjective data by every single car reviewer that I have read (which is 30+) who have compared the two cars disagree with the poster's opinion (neither here nor there).

This isn't that difficult. I said that he's entitled to his own opinion and that I am not saying his opinion is wrong, but simply stating that the objective data disagrees with his opinion as does the vast majority of the subjective data.

This isn't a zero sum game.

When did this become a BMW forum?