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Do they have any idea what their customers actually want?
Been watching the new S Class releases (W223, EQS) and I'm afraid MB is going totally off the rails, or is somehow chasing media attention instead of focusing on what their customers actually want. Ultimately I feel this will lead to the irrelevance of the brand.
I own a W222 but posting here since the topic is about "new cars". As I'm sure a lot of you will agree the S Class has always been the pinnacle of large sedan design, style, and luxury. I believe the W223 is a bit of a step back from the W222 but that's not what I want to focus on. Rather, MB seems to be making their customers make a choice moving forward, neither of which is ideal or what I want as a customer.
In 2022 as an S Class shopper your choices will be the W223 with a I6/V8 or the EQS. I'd love to step into the future with a proper electric or hybrid that gives me actual electric driving. So "mild-hybrids" / EQ Boost don't really cut it. So you can go with a W223 but have to deal with average to poor fuel economy (low 20s). Or you can get an EQS, but nothing about that car evokes an S Class at all. It frankly looks like a Chevy Volt. I get that they do this for aerodynamics, but therein lies the problem with BEVs today - they're inherently compromised. Whether it's the shape / style, range, or lack of easily available fast charging, you're dealing with something that's the result of the tech still being immature.
So as a shopper in 2022, I don't want to get a standard S Class and have NO electric driving and fuel economy that's the same as the last 20 years. I don't want to get an EQS which doesn't look or feel like an S Class at all and will undoubtedly still be frustrating to use / charge on long trips, no matter how good the range supposedly is.
Longer term, why release the EQ brand at all? What about once all cars are electric? Does that mean the E Class / S Class brands will go away? With all of their history and heritage? Why not just release an "electric S Class" so you can keep your storied nameplate?
If I look across the aisle to BMW, they seem to recognize this inherent limitation which is probably why they decided to release PHEVs of most of their models. You get the traditional look, feel, name and still get an electric drivetrain. Sure you might not be impressed by the range, but it could be enough to drive all electric most of the week, and still get superb (50+) MPG on slightly longer trips. That sounds like the type of improvement and experience I'd expect to find in a luxury product.
So I'd like to know what MB's plan is here. Do they plan to continue selling a 20 MPG S Class along with the jellybean EQS until 2030? Will the S Class eventually not be a thing at all? Why not accept the fact that BEV tech just doesn't allow you to make a proper electric S Class today, and release a PHEV S Class to live alongside the EQS until battery tech matures?
This doesn't even touch on all the hyperscreen / removing buttons nonsense which will age horribly and again seems to only be for media attention.
There is a PHEV W223 S-Class, however it isn’t sold in the US. There was a PHEV W222 available and GLC as well, both of which sold poorly in the US. The demand is not as high as you’d expect, and honestly I can’t imagine that MPG is one of the highest priorities for the average S-Class buyer. If you want a PHEV get a 7-Series.
MB is losing market share to Tesla, and they are so far behind in the marketing alone I'm not sure they'll ever catch up. They had to design a full electric from the ground up, and get started before they lose more, hence the EQS. Everything else was a gas car with a ridiculous waste of complication for 16 miles of range on battery power only. Then there was the EQC which again was a gas car with an over complicated electric motor under the hood, and likely design-compromised because of that.
So I think they are more worried about survival over what you want in particular. And where are you getting this 50 mpg dream of an s-class? It's just not possible with it's size and weight. I hope you aren't going by BMW's eMPG rating on the window sticker...there are some fantasy calculations in that number. S-class owners are literally dying off so everything is made to cater to the up and coming "touch screen generation" who have difficulty sharpening a pencil but can navigate the internet or a computer with ease.
Last edited by E55Greasemonkey; 09-05-2021 at 05:06 PM.
I’m 35 and know people in my age bracket, and even younger that ran to buy the W223. I got one myself.
I don’t care if an S Class is electric or gas, I just want an S Class.
It’s the baddest car on the streets right now and nothing drives like it. I saw an EQS yesterday, it looks absolutely horrible. It will sell strong first six months then bomb like the BMW i8.
When batteries can improve, then we can start seeing more electric cars that don’t care about being wind tunnel efficient.
MB is losing market share to Tesla, and they are so far behind in the marketing alone I'm not sure they'll ever catch up. They had to design a full electric from the ground up, and get started before they lose more, hence the EQS. Everything else was a gas car with a ridiculous waste of complication for 16 miles of range on battery power only. Then there was the EQC which again was a gas car with an over complicated electric motor under the hood, and likely design-compromised because of that.
So I think they are more worried about survival over what you want in particular. And where are you getting this 50 mpg dream of an s-class? It's just not possible with it's size and weight. I hope you aren't going by BMW's eMPG rating on the window sticker...there are some fantasy calculations in that number. S-class owners are literally dying off so everything is made to cater to the up and coming "touch screen generation" who have difficulty sharpening a pencil but can navigate the internet or a computer with ease.
Good points. What I find amusing is….if you drive and text, you get a ticket. However if you drive and use the OEM glass panel screen, you don’t get a ticket? Both require a driver to break eye contact with traffic. Why set a driver up to fail?
I get a digital aircraft panel at 35,000 ft with a crew. 80 mph with a glass panel not watching the road….I pass.
I understand they had to make the EQS to compete with Tesla, but it doesn't seem appealing to an S Class buyer at all. It looks like a Chevy Volt, in terms of making an attractive aerodynamic shape the Model S did a much better job. This is what I mean about future irrelevance of the brand - if they drop the S Class nameplate entirely, it's called something new like EQS with no history, a style that doesn't exude the same kind of class as before, and the interior is just a giant touchscreen which will be exactly like every other brand doing the same thing, then what sets the Mercedes apart? What does it represent?
Audi, BMW, and Porsche all sell PHEVs in the states, so if Mercedes' didn't do well it's because they didn't market or try to sell them, not surprising if you think about a typical dealer. It's not as much about the MPG as it is about the electric driving experience. It's absolutely better (noise, vibration, torque), and there's no reason a luxury brand shouldn't want it as part of the product experience. I'm curious how many buyers who say they don't care about it have driven one to compare. And yes 50-70 MPG is completely realistic depending on the length of the trip. If < 20 miles, no gas. If > 20 miles, really good MPG, until the battery runs out, at which point it'll just be "standard hybrid" MPG due to regen (high 20s / low 30s).
A luxury brand should strive to offer the best of everything. Today a gas-only S Class and the EQS are both compromises. And yes all the touchscreen stuff is just playing to the media and trends. They shouldn't remove good materials and touchpoints from things you interact with everyday (entire piano black center console?). It will just feel like every other car then.
2021 Cirrus Silver S580 AMG, 2020 Polar White GLE350
Daimler AG (Mercedes) like most corporations is shareholder driven, that means profit driven. In order to be profitable in the future, they must meet an over abundance of government regulations relating to vehicle emissions. The future fines and restrictions for noncompliance would put Mercedes and their competitors out of business. The strategic plan of Daimler AG is to comply with the ever increasing emission requirements and to profitably build cars that best meet what their customers want within those requirements. Here is a shareholder document explaining where Daimler AG is going in relation to all electric vehicles. https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaS...l?oid=50834319
M-B is going off the rails. Their new car delivered quality is bottom of the barrel, medium and long term reliability is bottom of the barrel, and the dealer network is bottom of the barrel.
Splashy introductions in their home turf IAA show are not signs of better times for the brand.
@mbwu In addition to BMW as you noted, look at Audi and Porsche. To me, these three German brands have a better total package to offer than the crumbling, formerly great M-B does.
Been watching the new S Class releases (W223, EQS) and I'm afraid MB is going totally off the rails, or is somehow chasing media attention instead of focusing on what their customers actually want. Ultimately I feel this will lead to the irrelevance of the brand.
I think you just answered your own question. What is Mercedes doing? They are selling their customers the cars the customers want to buy. You are literally the first person I have seen who is so concerned about gas mileage or a hybrid. When you are spending $100k+ on a car, gas mileage is the lowest concern of all factors. And for Pete's sake, we are roughly 2-3 months into the release of the new car. They typically don't release everything on day 1- there isn't even an AMG version yet which is far more important to customers than a hybrid. The last gen had one BTW, the problem is very few people bought them..
M-B is going off the rails. Their new car delivered quality is bottom of the barrel, medium and long term reliability is bottom of the barrel, and the dealer network is bottom of the barrel.
Splashy introductions in their home turf IAA show are not signs of better times for the brand.
@mbwu In addition to BMW as you noted, look at Audi and Porsche. To me, these three German brands have a better total package to offer than the crumbling, formerly great M-B does.
I think I can classify everything you just said as not true.
I understand they had to make the EQS to compete with Tesla, but it doesn't seem appealing to an S Class buyer at all. It looks like a Chevy Volt, in terms of making an attractive aerodynamic shape the Model S did a much better job. This is what I mean about future irrelevance of the brand - if they drop the S Class nameplate entirely, it's called something new like EQS with no history, a style that doesn't exude the same kind of class as before, and the interior is just a giant touchscreen which will be exactly like every other brand doing the same thing, then what sets the Mercedes apart? What does it represent?
Audi, BMW, and Porsche all sell PHEVs in the states, so if Mercedes' didn't do well it's because they didn't market or try to sell them, not surprising if you think about a typical dealer. It's not as much about the MPG as it is about the electric driving experience. It's absolutely better (noise, vibration, torque), and there's no reason a luxury brand shouldn't want it as part of the product experience. I'm curious how many buyers who say they don't care about it have driven one to compare. And yes 50-70 MPG is completely realistic depending on the length of the trip. If < 20 miles, no gas. If > 20 miles, really good MPG, until the battery runs out, at which point it'll just be "standard hybrid" MPG due to regen (high 20s / low 30s).
A luxury brand should strive to offer the best of everything. Today a gas-only S Class and the EQS are both compromises. And yes all the touchscreen stuff is just playing to the media and trends. They shouldn't remove good materials and touchpoints from things you interact with everyday (entire piano black center console?). It will just feel like every other car then.
Mercedes has not been a luxury brand since 2014 when they started selling the awful FWD CLA/GLA. Yes they have a few luxury models, but it's been downhill since then. Reliability and build quality has been poor, just look at the ongoing one-sixty-lemon (167) disaster. All their sedans look alike, even this new S class looks like an A class from the back. They killed their bread and butter E-class in 2015 with a re-bodied 4 cyl. C-class which had it's own share of problems with cracked pistons, sunroof failures, etc.
There is no 50-70 mpg. This is creative advertising. If you go 16 miles all electric before the battery is flat, that is 0 mpg, because you haven't used any gas. If you want to use a dollar comparison to gas then you'll have to calculate that $30k (?) EQS battery replacement when it fails in 10 or 15 years.
MB has dug their own grave by wanting to put a cheap MB in everyone's driveway. The EQ series is what they hope will be their savior. That remains to be seen.
Last edited by E55Greasemonkey; 09-06-2021 at 01:19 PM.
Reliability and quality had been poor long before 2014, its not like everything before that had been roses and sunshine or that the newest cars are the only ones to experience degrading quality, MB's worst moment in time is still easily the Daimler-Chrysler era.
Originally Posted by Car and Driver
The issues bred in the 1990s would haunt Daimler for years. In 1990, Mercedes-Benz came first in the J.D. Power & Associates Vehicle Dependability Study. In 2003, the company was 27th, behind Jaguar and Plymouth, over issues like "handling, braking, shocks and struts, electronic window controls, and inaccurate fuel gauges." Who was number one that year? Lexus.
The W124, W201, and W126/140 will still remain the last of the higher quality products for Benz, and even some of those products suffered cost cutting as their life-cycle ended and the market/economy adjusted. The W210 E-Class, W220 S-Class, W163 ML, and W168 A-Class (yes the FWD A-Class existed even in the 90's) were all of abhorrent quality by Benz standards and were pure examples of abusive cost cutting inside and out. These cars were inferior in almost every way besides technology and price to their predecessors, and even the new technology contributed to the poor reliability. The cars were heavily prone to obscene rusting within the warranty period and have a reputation for lack of durability unlike their predecessors. A switch to water based paints, cheaper materials, and increased use of plastic were all evident throughout the late 90's.
Originally Posted by NY Times
Mercedes's initial-quality problems occurred mainly in two areas, J.D. Power says. First are "traditional malfunctions and failures" of features and controls like wipers, cruise control and navigation system. Second are craftsmanship issues like ill-fitting panels, squeaks and rattles. These are not catastrophic failures, but they disappoint owners. David Champion, the auto testing director for Consumer Reports, recalled an S-Class sedan that the magazine tested in 2003. A button that controlled functions related to the radio, navigation system and climate controls kept sticking and had to be pried out. "Its a 2-cent part that creates mega-frustration," he said.
The W163 ML which was hyped to be the first family SUV for the brand since the G-Wagon had been long in the tooth, suffered an abysmal product launch, and was nicknamed the Alabama trashcan due to its poor quality upon leaving the factory.
Originally Posted by Curbside Classic
As Jeremy Clarkson found out when he was invited to test one and the model that was presented to him had exposed screws, an ill-fitting trunk release and panel gaps so large that he could literally stick his hand through. Then, when he took it off-road, a piece of the sunroof weather-stripping fell off on his lap. Owners began to report power steering fluid leaks, oil sludging if you followed the 10k oil change intervals, so many problems with the locks you wonder if people didn’t just left them unlocked so that when the electrical gremlin came at night it would lock it instead. The gearbox was the infamous “Sealed for life” unit. Numerous problems with the fuel pump and sender were also reported, as were problematic catalytic converters.
The W220 S-Class has a laundry list of issues from tons of faulty electrical items such as Command, Airmatic, Crank Position Sensor, ABC Sensors, etc.
Originally Posted by Car and Driver
As many owners discovered, there was so much more that could, and did, go wrong. Schrempp would blame "complex electronics systems installed without being properly understood." He was talking about the E-class, but the S-class had a similar appetite for destruction. Consumer Reports classified the W220 model's reliability as "poor," anointing it one of the "least reliable luxury cars."
Originally Posted by E55Greasemonkey
MB has dug their own grave by wanting to put a cheap MB in everyone's driveway.
If anything, as much as we the enthusiast hate it, this was MB's way of digging themselves out of their grave, and other luxury brands have used this strategy to their benefit, whether it be BMW, Audi, and even Porsche. The market is not just MB, and MB has to be competitive at all sides. Its cars like these that are able to provide the funds towards more adventurous or expensive products while introducing newer and younger customers to the brand in hopes of progressing up the ladder over time. Even in the 90's, before MB decided to make cheap cars through FWD, they had to make cheap cars out of their own series products. The '95 E320 Coupe cost $79,000 in '95, and was staggeringly expensive, almost double that of the sedan. The CLK320 which followed it was priced above $40,000. This was MB's way of putting another car in everyone's driveway. The CLK was a poor follow up to the 124 coupe and cabrio, but in order for it to sell, the price cut had to be done.
People tend to forget that Mercedes was struggling with profitability in the 90's and they were in huge financial trouble. A W140 S-Class was $90,000 base in the mid 90's, and had cost the brand billions in development. Lexus was a huge threat to Mercedes in the 90's as the brand expanded products from not just the LS, which was an S-Class beater of its time, but also the GS, SC, and ES which had their aim squared right at the C and E four and two doors. Mercedes could not afford to not have introduced cheaper models or not cut costs across the brand and change their direction, especially when the Japanese were offering 95% of the car MB was at 75% of the price. Porsche is another great example of this, as the company was going bankrupt making only sports cars. If it weren't for the help of VW, as well as badge-engineered SUV's such as the Macan and Cayenne and cost cutting to even their most prestigious sports cars (996 911). The brand would not have been where they are today, nor be able to fund their GT division products.
Its things like this that suck for the consumer, but its business afterall. The most you can do is give your feedback and vote with your wallet, but without being a part of the actual board team, there are things that we cannot change. MB was able to survive the 90's and early 2000's, a period in which the brand's values and products suffered a complete 180 all while finances were hemorrhaging, they are likely to be able to continue to survive today even with the current issues plaguing them.
2021 Cirrus Silver S580 AMG, 2020 Polar White GLE350
And for the domestic luxury leader of the not so distant past, there was the infamous Cadillac Cimarron, Cadillac’s V8-6-4 engine and those Cadillac V8’s leaking coolant into the into the oil causing the the engine to seize. Not exactly the “Standard of the World”.
@js_cls Great compilation. I had (have) first hand experience with the then-new W202, W210 and W140. All great cars but as you mention these mark the beginning of the end of the tank-like Mercedes vehicles.
After 6 months in 2021, MB's market share has stepped back 12 years, to a level not seen since 2009.
@js_cls Great compilation. I had (have) first hand experience with the then-new W202, W210 and W140. All great cars but as you mention these mark the beginning of the end of the tank-like Mercedes vehicles.
After 6 months in 2021, MB's market share has stepped back 12 years, to a level not seen since 2009.
At the moment we can't use the data from GoodCarBadCar as not every manufacturer reports sales at the same period of time. For example, the Germans report sales each quarter, but the Japanese report sales by each month. Because of that, the data from the Germans is not comparable as we are currently in Quarter 3 with no data being reported since June.
As seen below, GoodCarBadCar lists Lexus as highest in luxury sales and market share, however that is only due to the fact that Lexus reports monthly sales, thus there is data from July and August which the Germans have yet to report. The data on GoodCarBadCar can only be used for analysis at the end of each quarter to properly analyze the current market.
At the end of the year of course it will be a guess however to see how well MB's market share holds up, as they certainly have been impacted probably the worst of the Germans when it comes to the chip shortage. BMW was impacted much later as the brand was able to stockpile more chips early on and hold out a bit more, so I expect to see Audi and Mercedes' Q3 sales get hit harder than BMW's.
I think you just answered your own question. What is Mercedes doing? They are selling their customers the cars the customers want to buy. You are literally the first person I have seen who is so concerned about gas mileage or a hybrid. When you are spending $100k+ on a car, gas mileage is the lowest concern of all factors. And for Pete's sake, we are roughly 2-3 months into the release of the new car. They typically don't release everything on day 1- there isn't even an AMG version yet which is far more important to customers than a hybrid. The last gen had one BTW, the problem is very few people bought them..
It's not as much about the mileage as it is about the experience. Electric mode is completely silent with instant torque off the line. It's exactly what you'd what in a luxury product that used to use a V8 to achieve as much silence and power as possible. Porsche, Audi, BMW, and Volvo must agree as they all sell PHEVs in the states. I'm not sure who would drive one and not want it as part of their powertrain after they experience it, unless all they do is highway driving where the benefit wouldn't be noticed much.
Originally Posted by E55Greasemonkey
Mercedes has not been a luxury brand since 2014 when they started selling the awful FWD CLA/GLA. Yes they have a few luxury models, but it's been downhill since then. Reliability and build quality has been poor, just look at the ongoing one-sixty-lemon (167) disaster. All their sedans look alike, even this new S class looks like an A class from the back. They killed their bread and butter E-class in 2015 with a re-bodied 4 cyl. C-class which had it's own share of problems with cracked pistons, sunroof failures, etc.
There is no 50-70 mpg. This is creative advertising. If you go 16 miles all electric before the battery is flat, that is 0 mpg, because you haven't used any gas. If you want to use a dollar comparison to gas then you'll have to calculate that $30k (?) EQS battery replacement when it fails in 10 or 15 years.
MB has dug their own grave by wanting to put a cheap MB in everyone's driveway. The EQ series is what they hope will be their savior. That remains to be seen.
It's not as simple as getting infinite mpg for 16 miles and then "regular" mpg after that. A PHEV will use the electric mode as it sees fit over the course of the trip, turning the engine off when stopped, going down hills, or even at speed if not too much power is being requested. So yes over a 25-50 mile trip you'll get an average of 50-70 mpg for that trip. If you drive 300 miles straight without charging at all, then yes you'll get lower mpg, but even then in the 30s due to regen.
I get they need to release BEVs for emissions regulations, but they need to understand that the BEV is a compromised product (design, charging). They should release the best S Class that they can today, and that would include the traditional design with a more modern powertrain.
I think you just answered your own question. What is Mercedes doing? They are selling their customers the cars the customers want to buy. You are literally the first person I have seen who is so concerned about gas mileage or a hybrid. When you are spending $100k+ on a car, gas mileage is the lowest concern of all factors. And for Pete's sake, we are roughly 2-3 months into the release of the new car. They typically don't release everything on day 1- there isn't even an AMG version yet which is far more important to customers than a hybrid. The last gen had one BTW, the problem is very few people bought them..
It's not as much about the mileage as it is about the experience. Electric mode is completely silent with instant torque off the line. It's exactly what you'd what in a luxury product that used to use a V8 to achieve as much silence and power as possible. Porsche, Audi, BMW, and Volvo must agree as they all sell PHEVs in the states. I'm not sure who would drive one and not want it as part of their powertrain after they experience it, unless all they do is highway driving where the benefit wouldn't be noticed much.
Originally Posted by E55Greasemonkey
Mercedes has not been a luxury brand since 2014 when they started selling the awful FWD CLA/GLA. Yes they have a few luxury models, but it's been downhill since then. Reliability and build quality has been poor, just look at the ongoing one-sixty-lemon (167) disaster. All their sedans look alike, even this new S class looks like an A class from the back. They killed their bread and butter E-class in 2015 with a re-bodied 4 cyl. C-class which had it's own share of problems with cracked pistons, sunroof failures, etc.
There is no 50-70 mpg. This is creative advertising. If you go 16 miles all electric before the battery is flat, that is 0 mpg, because you haven't used any gas. If you want to use a dollar comparison to gas then you'll have to calculate that $30k (?) EQS battery replacement when it fails in 10 or 15 years.
MB has dug their own grave by wanting to put a cheap MB in everyone's driveway. The EQ series is what they hope will be their savior. That remains to be seen.
It's not as simple as getting infinite mpg for 16 miles and then "regular" mpg after that. A PHEV will use the electric mode as it sees fit over the course of the trip, turning the engine off when stopped, going down hills, or even at speed if not too much power is being requested. So yes over a 25-50 mile trip you'll get an average of 50-70 mpg for that trip. If you drive 300 miles straight without charging at all, then yes you'll get lower mpg, but even then in the 30s due to regen.
I get they need to release BEVs for emissions regulations, but they need to understand that the BEV is a compromised product (design, charging). They should release the best S Class that they can today, and that would include the traditional design with a more modern powertrain.
@js_cls the goodcarbadcar link was as of June 2021, so end of month and end of quarter. Apples to apples German vs Japanese brands.
As of June 2021, MB had slid back 10-12 years in market share. Let’s see where they end up for the full year.
While the MB data is as of June, the other car reports on the website are as of August. The way GoodCarBadCar is calculating Market Share is by dividing the current brand reported sales by total current car sales of all brands reported.
MB's 1.90% is calculated from their 182,473 sales as of June divided by total industry sales of 9,615,374 as of August. The numbers contributing to those total industry sales are monthly sales during July and August to which the Germans haven't reported data for. (https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/usa-au...sales-figures/)
If you want to see the proper market share of MB, the best way to do that would be to subtract current July and August sales from the current total industry sales (9,615,374 - 619,806 - 680,083) and then divide MB's 182,473 by the industry total as of end of June and Q2 (182,473/8,315,485) bringing end of Q2 market share to be about 2.19%
My point is that right now the numbers are skewed, as some car brands have reported sales by month, hence why GoodCarBadCar is reporting Lexus to have greater market share, because they (along with numerous other brands) reported sales during July and August to which MB and others haven't. As you can see in the photos I screenshotted in my earlier post, it says Lexus is ahead by more than 50,000 sales, however that is not true, its just that they report monthly versus quarterly. Like I said, the data will not be comparable for proper analyzing until the end of Q3 and end of Q4 since we are in the middle of a quarter with some sales being reported and others not being reported.
They decided that they know better what options an AMG body style 2021 should have. Apparently you can’t have entertainment package, 4 zone climate or 4 seats in an AMG stile, why? Because they know better! It’s no longer “The Best or Nothing”, it’s pretty much “nothing”. I think soon the headlights/tail lights will be interchangeable between C class, E and S class because the imagination left Mercedes just like innovation left Apple.
Never bought a luxury car because of mileage, while important not deciding factor. As for the brand, they're all starting to look the same. Instead of which one to buy, it's do I like anything enough to buy it. Mercedes goal of having a product in every driveway comes with a price. No longer the car that breaks in at 100K miles, it's the car you don't want outside of warranty. Lease, dump, and repeat. They want you on that treadmill.
As for the EQS, hideous design, can anyone imagine what it looks like in a few years? Will age in dog years. A dated piece of technology, like an old appliance. How do you recycle these cars? Basically like trading in iPhones. Will anyone want a 7 year old EQS (or EQE or whatever)?
09-05-2021, 02:50 PM
