W205C43PFL

Curious about something, people keep on praising the Ioniq 5 N in terms of attempt in restoring the engagement of ICE, what is your opinion on that?

superswiss

Mixed feelings to be honest. The fact that Hyundai did it tells a lot, though. They all struggle to offer something in the performance EVs that makes them truly desirable. Everything that makes ICE performance cars desirable is essentially missing from performance EVs. There's no motorsport pedigree or anything that makes these cars special. I just watched RBR's recent take on the Taycan and in the first part of the video he sums up the problem with these cars and why their values have tanked.

W205C43PFL

I see, understood.

I was specifically intrigued by the ioniq 5 N's simulated shift, the redline, the transmission jerk and power cut at certain gears etc.

It is like a real life video game.

superswiss

Yes, I figured that's what you are asking about, but the issue is essentially in your last sentence. It's a sim rig at the end of the day. I think for somebody who is into sim racing, it might have a lot of appeal. That's not my thing, though. If I shift gears I want to shift actual gears and not simulated gears. Same for all the fake electronic sound in these performance EVs.

W205C43PFL

Yup, makes sense.

QuadBenz

Thanks. I drove the EQS sedan and BMW i7 today and agree with everything you said. The ride in the EQS sedan was so much better than the SUV. Very little head toss/bouncing around compared to the SUV. It was very smooth but still a little floaty. The interior was too cramped and a bit cheap looking in a few areas. It kind of felt like driving a Model S if you've ever driven one.

I drove the 7 afterwards and it was no contest. The EQS is great but I knew right away I liked the i7 better. Space wise inside but the driving experience and isolation felt up another notch. Loved it.

The brakes were totally fine in the 2024 EQS I drove. I think they fixed it starting with this year?

SW20S

The i7 is an AMAZING car!

EQS sedan vs SUV yeah you can’t beat physics. The taller profile, longer suspension travel just creates differences in the ride. You just can only make an SUV so close to a sedan, it’s never quite there. Even on the same platform.

W205C43PFL

Which I find strange because people kept saying an SUV rides better than a sedan then there are those that says a sedan rides better than an SUV. This is in comparison of the same tier vehicle so GLE and E-class sedan, GLC and C-Class sedan with the same/similar options, tires and wheels.

S_W222

If I really wanted a high-performance ICE car, I still wouldn't consider the S63 (again, not that comfortable as the S560/S580, not even close for what i want). I'd rather get a RENNTECH tune on an S560 in that case and I'd get the 600 horsepower and 640 ft-lb torque without any compromises on comfort. Unless I truly want to race my car or take it to a track, I don't see any value in S63 (to me), it'll be an added maintenance cost and risk for nothing in return on top of comfort compromises. My point is, if performance is the only reason to consider it, there are other ways around yet using the same engine. But, I repeat, options are nice to fit the different needs of all buyers.
Last point, "some" of your impressions about EVs are absolutely incorrect (there are opinions, and facts, and in your cases, I think you deviated too much from facts). I know you got some EV loaners, but you never owned one... Am sure you'll change your mind once you own one of these. I bet there are examples when a Lucid with 500+ miles EV range "can" take you faster to your destination than the S63 (ev range vs gas tank range in some cases) : ) . I agree that EQS and i7 range suck though.

W205C43PFL

not the forum member your reply is directed to but I want to comment as well, I guess like you said, good to have options. There is a reason why Ferrari and Rolls-Royce exists together, same-ish tier vehicles but different needs for different people. Or back to MB, S-Class and AMG GT. Or Maybach and AMG GT Black Series.

Agree with the complexity of the W223 S 63 E Performance being a little too much, tuning a regular S 560 is cheaper than buying the former of course but then the better option would had been a S 580 which also have healthy numbers as well stock, however, you lose new-car warranty (or maybe you can hope that MB doesn't discover the tune when you remove it but if they try hard enough, there are always traces of it).

Guess those who buy a S 63 E Performance wants a sports car while having all the luxury amenities, the AMG GT doesn't offer the same luxury as an S-Class. Then there is also the good ol mighty G-wagen of course, for a different purpose. Those who buy S 63 E Performance doesn't only want power, they also want handling, that is part of the reason why they need the stiffer suspension. Then there is the transmission response, although you can totally tune the S 580 transmission though. There are other enhancements in an AMG, the chassis enhancement, the active motor mounts, different cooling and engine internal enhancements, upgraded brakes, ARC, the weight cut (although it is probably a joke to use the S 63 E Performance as an example and talk about weight reduction), the 4MATIC torque distribution, the differential, etc.

crabman

It's for a particular customer. I've got an X5M right now: Stupidly quick, can out lap most cars. Also, very stiff riding, obnoxiously direct, loud, it never stops being an M car, and I think you know what that means. On the other hand, the rorty factor is off the charts, it's got a V8, and it's great fun to drive, all while being able to carry big square boxes. It works for me, but I doubt many here would like it. I wouldn't like it if you took out any of those factors: fun, big boxes, V8.

I think you've got the same thing going on with the S63. It's not a car with many buyers, but I'm sure it has its target audience.

Going to the i7, there's a lot to like there. I finally did drive it, even though I hadn't been making friends with the proboscis: Most comfortable ride I've ever experienced. If it weren't for the front end, the goofy fake crystal, and the dealbreaker of a range that doesn't meet my needs, I'm in that car now.

W205C43PFL

Another take on electric/EQ is for those who just need/want luxury (and MB) for example and don't mind EVs, have friends that got it because they want to stick with MBs and were sick and tired of the transmission shift quality issues (not saying all MB transmission have these issues, and it certainly is possible to fix it with shift adaptations, or very least mitigate it and with success), the EQ without the traditional MB transmissions was what got some of my friends into these vehicles, plus their uses/needs/wants was met with the EQ series vehicles so it works well for them in the end.

S_W222

I think we are all (mostly) on the same page here... An EV in my view is the only car that can offer all benefits of both worlds, handling, luxury and comfort. The i7 offers exactly all it..... that front end though : ) .. Still probably that best well-rounded luxury and sport sedan one can buy today.

crabman

It sounds like they've been improving the shifting along the way; newer owners have far fewer complaints about it, but it's hard to get your shifting smoother than not shifting at all. To my mind, luxury, along with around town beater, are the two segments where EVs really shine.

superswiss

You seem to just make this up w/o actual data. You can use ABRP and analyze any road trip. ABRP lets you specify the maximum travel speed you intend to drive and see what it does to the route. For fun I regularly replay past road trips with various EVs to see what it would have looked like. I just replayed one of the epic trips I did through Europe in 2019 from Switzerland to Denmark with the Lucid Sapphire. roughly 800 miles in a single day. Charging adds 2 hours to the trip (9 hours driving time) when traveling at a max speed of 250 kph where possible. Even with frequent gas station stops, it's not 2 hours. Sure when I did that trip, I stopped once in a while to eat and such, but it's 5 charging stops. I only need to eat so many times in a day, and it's unlikely that my stomach and bladder will be on the same schedule as the charging stops. I admit this is perhaps extreme and in North America you can't drive this fast, but German performance cars wouldn't exist w/o the German Autobahn.

S_W222

I didn’t make it up (I have both, an EV and ICE cars), but like you said, one could look at either extremes, and both opinions could be true then. I have a 404 miles EV, inline-6 Mbenz, V8 X5, and a 4-cylinder hybrid car as we speak. Shorter highway trips within 300 miles? My EV can take me just as fast without any stops (this is actually my monthly ~250 miles trip, and I mostly go with the EV even with family)… If I had a Lucid 500-miles EV, it would take me less time to drive it than some of my former V8s. Surely I’d take longer than ICE on much longer trips…… 2 hours charging time on a 800 miles trip sounds like an EXTREME.. it just means your baseline is a low-range EV.. or that it’s strictly calculated for extreme high speeds in Germany. We are mostly always staying in the US, with one trip to europe/germany once a year, so my long trips experience is mostly based on US roads and the typical 80 MPH limit we have here. If you want to look at the other extreme and drive 200 MPH, surely u don’t want to consider an EV (I am not disagreeing).

How was the Sapphire experience btw aside from charging : ) ?

superswiss

Absolutely, but that's my point. I'm specifically talking about high performance EVs and not EVs in general. I'm questioning the point of 600+ hp EVs if you can't actually drive them fast w/o sacrificing a lot of range, resulting in lots of long charging stops. If you only drive 80 mph max, then a much less powerful EV will do the job. The German Autobahn is the ultimate proofing ground for performance road cars, so that's what I use to judge these and I also drive there regularly, so it's not just theoretical.

SW20S

SUVs don't ride better, they just don't. Anybody who says they do isn't comparing them to a comparable sedan. E Class rides better than a GLE, C Class better than a GLC...

The thing is, most people don't take trips that include them driving 800 miles a day at 250 kph. You're taking the most extreme travel example and writing off an EV because it can't do that well, which is what all EV detractors do. "I can't buy it because I can't get into it and drive 1,000 miles in one day without stopping a bunch of times. Hardly anybody even does that.

Personally, any further than 400 miles and I fly. I also have used ABRP and analyzed trips I take often, there is no trip that I take that I would have to stop more than once in an i7 60 with 305 miles of range. One stop about 25-30 min and I get to my destination with 15% SoC etc. I never drive more than 80 MPH for extended periods, and those estimates are based on driving 80 MPH. So an EV for me would work just fine, and 95% of my driving is day to day in town driving and it would be amazing to never have to worry about fuel. Plus I would have that incredible EV powertrain.

The reason I didn't do it was in the end I just like the S580 better than the i7, and the S Class was not available in an EV. Had it been available in an EV with the same looks and interior and 300 miles of range I probably would have done it. My concern about an EV for me is I travel to rural WV several times a year and non-Tesla charging options are few and far between. Once the Tesla options are opened then its a non issue. Stopping once for 25 minutes doesn't bother me, not having plenty of options where I can do that does.

superswiss

Again, I'm questioning the point of high performance EVs, not EVs in general. I'm not an EV detractor. Have stated many times in the past, that EVs make a lot of sense for commuting and short distance driving combined with home charging. Have at it, if that's your use case. We all ultimately use our own use cases and lifestyles to decide which cars suits us best. Charging and infrastructure aside, my personal issues with EVs is that I'm bored already with them and I haven't even owned one yet. Just driving loaners for a couple of weeks and the performance versions at several AMG events left me disinterested. The thing I think that gets lost is that for people like me, performance cars are about the engagement and the driving experience. It's not the outright speed. That's what AMG etc. is struggling with. They make these things crazy fast in a straight line, but they lack the engagement and driving experience, so people aren't really interested. Even Rimac has found that nobody really wants an electric hyper car. The crazy fast Nevera isn't selling.

SW20S

Except that your argument I responded to had nothing to do with high performance EVs and everything to do about range when traveling

superswiss

Range traveling at high speeds. What I said was that the faster you drive them, the longer the trip takes. Your are omitting the context from previous posts.

SW20S

And my point is hardly anybody drives hundreds of miles at 240 kph...its really a pointless argument.

Viper98912

I know this is a 223 topic, but saw the 222 referenced in here at times.

If you wanted a nice engine but supple suspension, should've gone for the 65 with the MBC suspension. MBC is truly great IMO.

As for the pre-facelift 213 E63 suspension, talk about stupid hard. "Brick" was definitely the right description. I test drove one of these and thought something was broken with the airmatic because it rode so hard, even in comfort. Definitely crossed this off my list, even though I think it was one of the most beautiful and capable inside and out.

superswiss

You have clearly never been to Germany. Anyway, I don't even remember how we ended up on EVs in this thread and you don't drive high performance cars. So let's just agree to disagree. We live in very different motoring worlds.

SW20S

I have been to Germany but I don’t live in Germany, so what people do in Germany has no bearing on my purchase decisions or needs. It would be like me not buying a sports car because they are difficult to drive in Nairobi.

Any travel I did to Germany or driving I did on the Autobahn wouldn’t be in my own car anyways since I live in the US.