6o4o

Hello all

I am new her, but already got lots of great information on this forum, thanks a lot!
I bought a 2010 E500 with sport package and 120'000km few months ago and although all services were made at Mercedes I just replaced the differential oil but also servicing the 722.9 as the last oil change was done 60'000km ago.
It seems that it's the old type (white tube, red fluid, car build in Feb 2010 and also the serial number is 722904 02 719244 and means the old type.
Now, I still wanted to get the new filter, bought the new style (depper) pan and the Smartmedia Tripple filter (A222 277 28 00)
I think this filter would also fit with my old pan, but I like the bigger space below the filter so I would like to install the new, deeper pan too.
But now it gets confusing. I spend hours researching, found also the great where they explain the differences EXCEPT WHY the green tube is now shorter and massively reduces the oil pan content vs. the white tube?!

Below I hold the old pan (left) little bit higher so both pans sit at same height (as they would be on the transmission flange). Look at this huge oil level difference!

This is with both pans on the floor. Although the deeper pan is heigher, the green tube is still so short that it is below the white one.


So now I ask myself, did Mercedes reduce the level so decrease friction (less oil in turning parts) or does the blue ATF expand much more? There must be a important reason. I know that having too much oil can make it foaming and this would be fatal. But why would the deeper pan not work with the white tube?
I really am thinking to reuse my old white tube on the deeper pan, have a little bit less oil capacity than original (as the pan sits a lilttle bit lower) but still much higher than the green tube.

Any ideas, hints, tips from your side?

Thank you!

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Interesting question. FCP Euro sells the "upgrade" kit. Looks like the green pipe.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mer...n-001989680310

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Since you are using a different filter, as well, I think as long as the filter is completely submerged is what matters.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Where are you located? Please provide your location in your profile.

Your 2010 E500 is not North America, so the configuration may be different.

In the notes on the FCP Euro page, it says, Not for vehicles with A89 Option Code, use datamb.com to verify vehicle options. A89 is the reduced friction (blue) fluid configuration. If you drain red fluid, use red fluid. Do not use blue fluid.

6o4o

Yep, FCP provides the green tube, but no explanation as to why it's smart to reduce the oil in the pan. I really guess Mercedes wanted to reduce the friction by having less oil splash but also reduced total oil capacity with that.

I am from Switzerland (it is in my profile by the way. At least I see it).

I have no A89 code..White tube, red oil, trans serial number and built date are all early version. But still as said would like to use the new pan and new filter. Question is if the old white tube would still be ok?

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

The FCP kit can ONLY be used with the older trannies. Can't really say for sure unless the new type filter has a longer neck on it so that it is further down, as well. But as I said before, only the filter needs to be covered. I believe the flow is from the pan, through the filter, into the transmission valve body, torque converter, cooler, and back to the pan. When the motor is running the fluid circulates from the pan to the torque converter through the cooler lines to the cooler in the radiator and back to the pan continuously.

6o4o

Why would the FCP kit only work on the older transmissions? The newer transmissions (722.9+) already have the deeper pan, better filter and green pipe as I understood. The FCP kit would be no difference to the factory setup. I understand that the FCP kit IS the 722.9+ setup.

Anyway, still not sure on the pipe. I rebuild about 80 Mopar transmissions (727 and 904) over the years and do know that overfilling an automatic transmission can be as fatal as underfilling it due to foaming of the oil (=air in the oil = pressure loss = very quick transmission failure). But my feeling says that the white pipe would work with the new pan. It would have a little bit lower level than then old pan, but still I would keep the original oil capacity and the filter would surely emerged deep enough. The green pipe really decreases the oil capacity a lot and I think that they just did this to reduce friction, not for performance reasons, in contrary...

Thought maybe someone knows if really this is the reason?

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Not really sure why you think less fluid is going to reduce friction. The blue fluid reduces friction. The green pipe is what is used with that pan. But your questions have been asked and answered and asked again, hoping for a response that will agree with your theory. At this point, do what you want.

The FCP kit only works with older transmissions because the "kit" uses the older style fluid and is not an upgrade for the newer transmissions.

6o4o

Because I suspect that the spinning parts were touching the oil and causing drag (as do engine crankcases). With lower fluid level the spinning parts are not touching the oil. I just see no other reason to decrease oil capacity. All aftermaket transmissions pans for high performance use increase fluid and cooling capacity, not the opposite. I sold dozens of such pans in the past for 727 and 904, some behind 600-1000HP engines and converter stalls of 3000RPM. That is what confuses me about Mercedes odd decision.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

There are no spinning parts that touch the oil in the oil pan.

6o4o

Just talked to a friend that worked many years in the car industry as engineer. He thinks that Mercedes improved the filter but at the same time reduced the oil capacity to reduce the costs. If you think how many transmissions they sold it makes a huge difference if there is 10-15$ less oil in the pan! Another reason would also be the amount of recyclable mass in a car he said. Oil is bad he said and this could also be a reason, but he think the main reason is the costs.I will keep the white pipe and keep the oil capacity as before, as I don't care about the money for the extra ATF.
The more ATF in the pan (as long as it's not overfilled!) the better.

Thanks all for your inputs!

S-Prihadi

The new updated oil pan is deeper by 5mm.

See attachment........

Also you measure tranny oil level while engine is running and at certain temperature....

From ATRA webminar, below :



Just so you know, 10C temperature different can effect fluid level.

If you have oil cooler for the tranny : https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...sion-fluid.pdf


.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Well, there goes the theory out the door that less fluid is used in the new pan.

6o4o

There is more than 1 late pan:

I measured the difference of the two pipes:

Green pipe vs. white pipe = ca. 7mm difference

New 722.9+ pan vs 722.9 pan is 6-7mm (I didn't take my streight edge to measure, I just measured at the boarder with my caliper)

But the pan height doesn't do anything to the level, only the pipe does. So we got 7mm difference x the area.
I forgot to measure the area, will do that tomorrow. But it's about 30cm x 20cm with the rear part chamfered, but both pans do have that chamfer so only the square part counts. So we have about 300x200x7mm volume = 0.47liters less with the green pipe.

It seems that there was a even later pan/pipe combo with a black pipe, where Mercedes recommends to change to the white pipe:
I found this info:

"Non-chamfered pan (black overflow pipe), Uses old red fluid spec (236.14), temperature for fluid adjustment is 35C/96F. Mercedes recommend replacing this pan with the newer chamfered pan with the white overflow pipe.
Chamfered pan (white overflow pipe), Uses old red fluid spec (236.14), temperature for fluid adjustment is 45C/113F. Chamfered pan (green overflow pipe) cars made after 21JUN2010 (mostly 2011 model year up), Uses the new blue fluid spec (236.15), temperature for fluid adjustment is 45C/113F. Check your Mercedes build sheet https://www.datamb.com/ for option A89 (reduced friction) which calls for this fluid."

So the white and green pipe pans use same 45°C. Only the very early black pipe uses 35°C. ATF does expand with temperature, but here the reason is (I read that also somewhere) is the thermostat that opens at 90F. Mercedes wants to make sure the Thermostat is all open and the extra cooler filled with oil before the oil level is checked. I think that is the reason for the 45°C I guess + some ATF expansion. If the cooler is empty then the oil will drop once the thermostat opens.

S-Prihadi

You are measuring the oil pipe height by itself ?
.... or bottom of oil pan to top of oil pipe ?

Your newest pan will be the latest one, or 3rd style/generation if considering 722.9 entire production life 2003 to 2020, because as you said there is a 1st gen version non chamfered and black pipe.

If say all measured correctly and only 0.47 liters less oil with 3rd gen oil pan and pipe, it is no big deal.
What most important is you have the drain valve at the torque converter ( 3.5 liters or more ) , if you don't have one you must get the special kit using compressed air to help
push out old oil out of torque converter. Also do not use tranny oil too long like what MB reccommended. Tranny oil is too cheap vs tranny repair.


I replace my tranny oil at 2 years or 20,000KM whichever is sooner. 3 times now already.
1st one was 10,773 KM but 4.5 years since car new. I bought it used at 4th year old.
This time I will push to 3 years, because today May 2024 I am still at 39,500KM only , so Sept 2025 is my next tranny oil change and mileage wise it will never
hit 20,000KM too.

.

6o4o

ATF degrades very fast with high temperature. I used to have a list for lifetime vs. temperature. Above 100°C it deteriorates very fast. But as there is an extra cooler in it, I guess Mercedes will keep temperature low. But yes, I agree, I also would rather change it more often than less often. I just bought the car, planing to do a change around 40k again. The ATF is not the hassle, the mess doing the oil change is.

I won't bother to remove all those brackets and cables to access the TC. I don't even know if I have a drain plug. And I would not recommend to push air through the system, not sure the cooler will like this. I will remove the cooler return line and start the engine quickly, then turn it off, put more oil in the pain, start again, off etc. till I get fresh oil out of the cooler return line. Then put ithe cooler line back on. This way I have all the system flushed with fresh oil with no extra air pressure.

S-Prihadi

It is very easy to inspect TC drain plug for non start-stop tranny, where the 12V AUX oil pump is covering the TC oil drain plug.

The oil evacuation kit I speak of is pushing regulated low pressure air ( 10 - 15 psi ) into the filter receiver hole and and it will drain oil like video below, so you do not actually apply
much pressure or any pressure higher than the tranny oil pump itself is capable of.

.
Only use this kit if you do not have TC drain plug.

The tranny oil cooler thermostat opens at near 80C.
So the tranny oil is well kept below 90C at all times.

Here is tranny oil pan skin temperature using K thermocouple. The tranny module itself has its own internal oil temperature sensor and I have compared both during car stop, with engine running after
hours of use ( best heat release and no wind cooling the oil pan ) and they are within 2C of each other.

This is the last 248 minutes of log, from a trip of approx 10 hours of 800KM Surabaya City to Jakarta City.
Last fuel stop to my friend's home and then my home. So highway and usual insane traffic jam as I enter Jakarta city.
Actual ambient temperature is 34C max.


5Hz for 248 Minutes - Graph 1



Graph 2



I can say that 85C is as hot as it gets even at creeping traffic jam. I am not towing anything and the road is basically flat and not uphill mountain climb.


All temperature sensors, except engine coolant and ambient air temperature, they are my add-on and using K thermocouple on the oil pan metal skin or DIFF body or oil pressure sensor skin.

6o4o

great data you collected here, nice! 85°C max is also a good ATF temperature! Thnx for the post!

I have some bigger bracket and some cable harnesses in front of the TC inspection cover. So I opted not to remove those and rather remove the oil cooler return line to have all the oil changed. The return line should be very easy to remove, I saw it yesterday and access is good. I see this as a much easier method than removing all that and maybe find out I have no TC drain plug or have to drive 20km to MErcedes and order a new drain plug. And then I still have old oil in the cooler lines. This method should drain the oil in the complete system. I don't care if I use some extra oil to be sure that clean oil comes out.

S-Prihadi

Oky doky...when you done share with us.

6o4o

Little update.

The pan I measured at about 40x25cm (I measured a little bit more but with the recesses it's little bit less), so it's more like 0.7liters less with the green pipe.

Removed yesterday the return line. Just 1 bolt on the passenger side, good access above the exhaust pipe. I removed additionally 2 bolts holding the cooler line, as the cooler line is very stiff and can't be moved well. Like that I should be able to put a hose on it for the return oil. Also changed the 2 o-rings while I was at that, although the original ones felt still very soft (120'000km). The cooler line is 12mm OD, so I will get a PCV pipe this size today and retry tomorrow or Friday and do the flush.

On the picture the arrow shows the bolt to remove and then you can pull the return cooler line easily.

S-Prihadi

That green arrow I marked seems to be the torque converter peek hole rubber plug.
The red arrow is the bracket, what does that do in your car ?

6o4o

I don't know, but that bracket seems to be very strong and I didn't wanted to bother to remove all this stuff (+ cables) just to find out there is no drain plug. The removal of the return line was done in 5-10min and seems to be the easier solution as I can also flush the cooler + cooler lines.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure of the terminology, but according to the WIS, the line you disconnected is the Feed line. Maybe the attached doc may help.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

Here some more useful docs.

6o4o

Hello

I saw the post just now.
I connected the passenger side line to the 12mm ID PCV hose and started the car a few times till I got about 11liters total ATF changed. The ATF starts to flow within few secs. I always let the engine run in P around 10-15seconds to check how much oil came out (was easy to measure the depth of this box) and to put more oil in the transmission if needed. The color was not perfect red, but very bright already. Feed or return, not sure how Mercedes defines this, but the oil came out of this line from the cooler. So it was to me the return line on the passenger side. Would mean the manual is wrong?

See pictures attached. I also attached the braket I have. It holds the transmission with some kind of rubber bushing and the 2 cats together.


12mm hose on return cooler line

Fresh ATF left, return ATF right hose after first motor start (about 10sec)

Strong braket from transmission holding catalytic converters