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Sergey, I was in the same predicament and seems like at regular driving speeds on turns the car does not roll too much due to the low center of gravity, but as time passed, I noticed that when turning in an asymmetric surface condition in which the weight of the car is mainly supported by two opposite corner wheels, the front wheel was getting too deep into the fender bay and rubbing. The sway bar will add spring force to the front wheel where the added force keeps that wheel from rubbing into the fender edge.
The answer to that issue is very personal, if it doesn't bother you...skip the sway bar, or if you are a dare devil and enjoy the lateral acceleration, you may have an issue with the roll!
The issue here is that on top of the sway bar kit cost, the installation is not simple..and using a shop it may add at least $500 to $800 to the cost of the lit! Unless you are a DYI..!
There is some labor overlap between coilover installation and sway bar installation, but not so much that you'd really regret not doing them both at once. So not really much harm in doing the coilovers first and living with them for a while before deciding on sway bars.
Sway bars help in all cornering, but their effect is most noticeable when you get the car in a long, high speed curve that has some bumps in it, like an exit ramp from one highway to another. All the weight of the car gets shifted to the outside of the curve, and without sway bars the suspension on that side of the car gets loaded down. Then, with little suspension travel remaining, the bumps can cause the suspension to bottom out and upset the handling of the car. Also, a quick side-to-side transition at speed, as you would do in avoiding an accident, is much more stable with sway bars.
But I certainly wouldn't say the car is unreasonably dangerous without sway bars. It'll still handle a lot better than most SUVs, mini-vans, pickup trucks, etc. so I also see no reason from a safety perspective against living with the coilovers for a while before deciding on sway bars.
Bear in mind also - V12 cars require the frame mounts for the front sway bar to be welded in. V8 cars have the same front frame rails as non-USA V6 cars that were available without ABC, so they have threaded holes already there for the frame side mounts. V12 cars have different front frame rails which do not have these accommodations. The weld in mounts aren't complicated, they're just thick flat metal plates with threaded holes in them that are welded to the bottom of the frame rails. It's not a complicated job, so if you don't weld yourself you should be able to hire a welder to come out and do it for a reasonable amount.
Sergey, I was in the same predicament and seems like at regular driving speeds on turns the car does not roll too much due to the low center of gravity, but as time passed, I noticed that when turning in an asymmetric surface condition in which the weight of the car is mainly supported by two opposite corner wheels, the front wheel was getting too deep into the fender bay and rubbing. The sway bar will add spring force to the front wheel where the added force keeps that wheel from rubbing into the fender edge.
The answer to that issue is very personal, if it doesn't bother you...skip the sway bar, or if you are a dare devil and enjoy the lateral acceleration, you may have an issue with the roll!
The issue here is that on top of the sway bar kit cost, the installation is not simple..and using a shop it may add at least $500 to $800 to the cost of the lit! Unless you are a DYI..!
My two cents!
Thank you! I totally agree, I'd start with just coilovers and then drive the car to see if it needs anything. I have a local DIY garage where I could rent a lift and they have air compressor. I have bunch of tools but not air tools. I never dropped a subframe, so I may ask someone with more experience to assist me...
Originally Posted by brucewane
There is some labor overlap between coilover installation and sway bar installation, but not so much that you'd really regret not doing them both at once. So not really much harm in doing the coilovers first and living with them for a while before deciding on sway bars.
Sway bars help in all cornering, but their effect is most noticeable when you get the car in a long, high speed curve that has some bumps in it, like an exit ramp from one highway to another. All the weight of the car gets shifted to the outside of the curve, and without sway bars the suspension on that side of the car gets loaded down. Then, with little suspension travel remaining, the bumps can cause the suspension to bottom out and upset the handling of the car. Also, a quick side-to-side transition at speed, as you would do in avoiding an accident, is much more stable with sway bars.
But I certainly wouldn't say the car is unreasonably dangerous without sway bars. It'll still handle a lot better than most SUVs, mini-vans, pickup trucks, etc. so I also see no reason from a safety perspective against living with the coilovers for a while before deciding on sway bars.
Bear in mind also - V12 cars require the frame mounts for the front sway bar to be welded in. V8 cars have the same front frame rails as non-USA V6 cars that were available without ABC, so they have threaded holes already there for the frame side mounts. V12 cars have different front frame rails which do not have these accommodations. The weld in mounts aren't complicated, they're just thick flat metal plates with threaded holes in them that are welded to the bottom of the frame rails. It's not a complicated job, so if you don't weld yourself you should be able to hire a welder to come out and do it for a reasonable amount.
Thank you! Yup, I absolutely agree. As I wrote above I'd start with just coilovers and then go from there.
I got a few questions regarding welding front sway bar mounts:
1) Are those mounts sold with those sway bar kits or you have to DIY those mounts including fabricating and drilling?
2) Is this welding process well-documented? I believe a sway bar should be mounted precisely so the left and right mount shouldn't be off each other including drilled holes. All this factors make me worry about if I can do it correctly or not.
I'm not a welder and I've never done it before, so I wouldn't touch a welding machine in this particular case. I may find a local welder but I need to make sure they know what to do including where exactly and how to weld those mounts.
Sergey, Bruce, you are right on the thin walls of the main frame and suspect the place where the mounts are bolted on the SL 500 surely are reinforced. Since I mounted my bar in a different location, I drilled a hole in the location and verified that the metal was too thin for bolts, so I made a U shaped saddle and wrapped around the frame. Then I bolted the bar supports on that saddle! Perhaps you can find a shop to make you the saddles, then no need to weld!
I got a few questions regarding welding front sway bar mounts:
1) Are those mounts sold with those sway bar kits or you have to DIY those mounts including fabricating and drilling?
2) Is this welding process well-documented? I believe a sway bar should be mounted precisely so the left and right mount shouldn't be off each other including drilled holes. All this factors make me worry about if I can do it correctly or not.
VVK sway bars for V12 R230s come with the weld-in mounts, as well as all other hardware needed (end links, etc.).
See post #69 for weld-in mount placement information.
There's no reason to worry about the sway bar mounts being off by a millimeter or two fore/aft. The end links will compensate for any small variance in bar alignment at the control arm ends, and the sway bar doesn't affect front wheel alignment in any way.
VVK sway bars for V12 R230s come with the weld-in mounts, as well as all other hardware needed (end links, etc.).
See post #69 for weld-in mount placement information.
There's no reason to worry about the sway bar mounts being off by a millimeter or two fore/aft. The end links will compensate for any small variance in bar alignment at the control arm ends, and the sway bar doesn't affect front wheel alignment in any way.
Thank you. I wish they had a video about V12 installation. I see they only showed a V12 bracket and the rest of the video is about unbolting subframe and bolting it back on that particular V8 SL.
I see on the product page (see the link below) they only mention this:
"This kits includes all of those parts plus the drop links and 4 ball joints required to connect to your SL. The front link ball joints need to be pressed into the existing round hole next to the lower shock mount . It should be installed with the threads & hex toward the front of the vehicle."
Google says I'm about 3.5 hours from Stuart, FL where VVK is located. Not too close though at least they are local. I may pay them a visit later if they could help me with the sway bars. If I need it after installing coilovers...
VVK may do the install for you, though not for free.
Got it. Oh maybe they could do it for free and make a video of the process, and use it for advertising of their products. I think lots of V12 folks are on the fence since it requires welding and YouTube is filled with videos related only to V8 SLs (SL500, SL55).
12-01-2023, 10:03 AM
