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...As a young man, the car that I lusted after was the Ferrari 275 GTS:
Gawd, are those Borranis gorgeous on that car, or what? They were on the Daytona as well. I'd still like to see a 231 on a set of those, just once. I do understand your fixation on this car...it's obviously beautiful, and dripping with soul. I was a Dino/Miura guy, myself.
From my standpoint the problem with modern cars having so much excess power is that tire technology and common physics cannot be improved to match this power unless one wants to drive around with “Summer tires” that wear out in 7-10 thousand miles.
Yes on the tires but I'll add one more thing if I may --
Another problem is that many drivers of these highly capable car have never taken one, let alone many, high performance driving schools. As a result, either the cars are underutilized and serve mostly as garage queens or the owner get in over his head and really does not know how or when to (or when not to) use the capability of the car. This really first became obvious in the mid-90s when BMW came out with the E36 M3 which at that time was a rocket. Even at well organized and controlled BMW Club driving schools there were a lot of incidents which damaged cars and egos.
After spending $100K or more on a special vehicle, doesn't make sense to spend another 5% on oneself to gain techniques and experience that will last a lifetime, long after the car is gone?
Agree 100%. First thing I did after taking delivery of my C7 Corvette was go to Spring Mtn. for a 2 day school. I've also been to several BMW M Schools in SC. Well worth the cost.
Yes on the tires but I'll add one more thing if I may --
Another problem is that many drivers of these highly capable car have never taken one, let alone many, high performance driving schools. As a result, either the cars are underutilized and serve mostly as garage queens or the owner get in over his head and really does not know how or when to (or when not to) use the capability of the car. This really first became obvious in the mid-90s when BMW came out with the E36 M3 which at that time was a rocket. Even at well organized and controlled BMW Club driving schools there were a lot of incidents which damaged cars and egos.
After spending $100K or more on a special vehicle, doesn't make sense to spend another 5% on oneself to gain techniques and experience that will last a lifetime, long after the car is gone?
I never stated that I abuse my cars or drive like that. I was just referring to the fact that the SL550 already has more torque/power than the tires are designed for at this time even for spirited back road driving.
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Taking an advanced driving course and knowing how to handle a vehicle in emergency situations is great. Unfortunately, the underlying comment in this and many other threads here, is that drivers in the USA are constantly shredding traffic laws. We refer to it as “spirited” or “aggressive “ driving, but the bottom line is that the cars are being driven at speeds and in manners that are—in many cases—unsafe. We don’t want to admit that it’s unsafe, but in most cases, it is. Living in an area were many people can afford pretty much any vehicle, we continue to see horrendous crashes, often resulting in the injury or death of innocent bystanders. Sure, driving way over speed limits can be fun. Drifting through corners can be fun. Blowing the doors off the car sitting next to you at a stoplight can be fun. I hope everyone participating in such activities gets a great, big TICKET!
This thread has been all over the place. Ultimately, this is a story that repeats itself on every model every time a new iteration is coming or launched.
Always drama, doom and gloom discussions, people hating this or that, swearing they will never buy it and their current one will be the last one, etc. People seem to forget that the R231 was the most disliked SL in decades and people hated the cars look (aka ugly) and look at it now...
Just go back to 2012 on this forum and things will feel like deja vu.
Same thing going on in the S-Class forum right now.
This thread has been all over the place. Ultimately, this is a story that repeats itself on every model every time a new iteration is coming or launched.
Always drama, doom and gloom discussions, people hating this or that, swearing they will never buy it and their current one will be the last one, etc. People seem to forget that the R231 was the most disliked SL in decades and people hated the cars look (aka ugly) and look at it now...
Just go back to 2012 on this forum and things will feel like deja vu.
Same thing going on in the S-Class forum right now.
And the same will happen with the w224 and r233(?) in seven or ten years or whatever. The biggest difference I see is that the cars are changing dramatically faster each generation and in doing so they deviate more from what MB was always known for. Something cold about massive tech. Not to say MB can afford to fall behind but they have changed more in the last three or four years than the previous ten. Nothing gradual. It's fast and furious.
Just to clarify my reference to the word bespoke, it is in keeping with the understanding that "Bespoke is not exactly a new term, but it seems to be gaining in popularity. It means the opposite of off-the-rack. Bespoke clothing is custom-made clothing. ... A made-to-measure item is a standard one customized at the factory in certain measurements and details. Bespoke is made from scratch to your specifications"
And in those terms my use of the word in regards to the SL is that the R231 appears to be the last SL to be made on it's own chassis and underpinnings, as the previous generations were. Going forward the shared platform which the SL will be on seems to be a step back in some ways, however when it sees the light of day, and our eyes, I am sure that we shall each arrive at our own level of acceptance and opinion.
My apologies if I have misused the term.
You do realize that the SL has always used bits and pieces of other Mercedes models right? The legendary R129 was a cut down version of the W124 E-Class platform. Yeah the R231 was more "bespoke" as you call it, but it's been a flop. The new SL will share it's platform with the AMG GT sport car and be a vastly improved vehicle, so I really don't see what the issue is here. Just because something is bespoke doesn't mean it's any better. It's not like the next SL is sharing it's platform with some family car as they over at other luxury brands that use family cars as a base. You're drawing conclusions and making an issue out of nothing before the car is even shown.
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Originally Posted by Germancar1
You do realize that the SL has always used bits and pieces of other Mercedes models right? The legendary R129 was a cut down version of the W124 E-Class platform. Yeah the R231 was more "bespoke" as you call it, but it's been a flop. The new SL will share it's platform with the AMG GT sport car and be a vastly improved vehicle, so I really don't see what the issue is here. Just because something is bespoke doesn't mean it's any better. It's not like the next SL is sharing it's platform with some family car as they over at other luxury brands that use family cars as a base. You're drawing conclusions and making an issue out of nothing before the car is even shown.
M
The R231 has been a sales failure, but that’s because MB and MBUSA messed up. MB for “phoning in” the exterior design, especially the 2013 Sport Pkg. design and MBUSA for not importing the non-AMG Sport Pkg. model and for not continuing to have all US bound cars equipped with ABC as standard equipment. Yeah, yeah, I know, beating a dead horse.
What I and many other previous and current SL owners are objecting to is the loss of the retractable hardtop and the 2+2 configuration of the new car. It will be fast and handle like a contemporary GT, but we feel as though the uniqueness will be lost. We currently have the AMG GT roadsters, 911 cabriolets, Aston-Martin DB11 convertibles, BMW 8 Series convertibles, Maserati GT convertibles, etc.—did I leave anything out?—ALL of which are rag top, 2+2 GT’s. Now the SL will be just another one and only the Ferrari Portofino will sport a retractable hardtop.
I know, I know, this has all been hashed out over and over, but no matter how good the new SL MAY be, many of us will feel that we have lost something unique and I guess what upsets us most, is that it DIDN’T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY! MB could have done a new SL that kept the best of the previous model and greatly improved it with modern engineering and tech, but instead, they threw the baby out with the bath water and are giving us a compromise. To me, a rag top, 2+2 SL is a compromise.
................and, the “OLD” ones aren’t so bad looking, are they?
Last edited by Streamliner; Aug 17, 2020 at 07:15 PM.
The R231 has been a sales failure, but that’s because MB and MBUSA messed up. MB for “phoning in” the exterior design, especially the 2013 Sport Pkg. design and MBUSA for not importing the non-AMG Sport Pkg. model and for not continuing to have all US bound cars equipped with ABC as standard equipment. Yeah, yeah, I know, beating a dead horse.
What I and many other previous and current SL owners are objecting to is the loss of the retractable hardtop and the 2+2 configuration of the new car. It will be fast and handle like a contemporary GT, but we feel as though the uniqueness will be lost. We currently have the AMG GT roadsters, 911 cabriolets, Aston-Martin DB11 convertibles, BMW 8 Series convertibles, Maserati GT convertibles, etc.—did I leave anything out?—ALL of which are rag top, 2+2 GT’s. Now the SL will be just another one and only the Ferrari Portofino will sport a retractable hardtop.
I know, I know, this has all been hashed out over and over, but no matter how good the new SL MAY be, many of us will feel that we have lost something unique and I guess what upsets us most, is that it DIDN’T HAVE TO BE THAT WAY! MB could have done a new SL that kept the best of the previous model and greatly improved it with modern engineering and tech, but instead, they threw the baby out with the bath water and are giving us a compromise. To me, a rag top, 2+2 SL is a compromise.
................and, the “OLD” ones aren’t so bad looking, are they?
You're creating an issue in your head before you even see the car, which is proving my point to the other poster. You don't know what the next SL will be like until you see and drive it. I honestly don't get the self induced worry and issues you guys drum up here. It's as if they could create the best car possible and a lot here wouldn't even be able to see it because their minds are already made it. Sorry I don't get it. Anyways, since you spoke up here I have to ask you about the Lexus LC500 Convertible, what do you think of it? Oh and yeah the R231 flopped because Mercedes messed up, not sure who else could have been at fault for that other than Mercedes lol.
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Originally Posted by Germancar1
You're creating an issue in your head before you even see the car, which is proving my point to the other poster. You don't know what the next SL will be like until you see and drive it. I honestly don't get the self induced worry and issues you guys drum up here. It's as if they could create the best car possible and a lot here wouldn't even be able to see it because their minds are already made it. Sorry I don't get it. Anyways, since you spoke up here I have to ask you about the Lexus LC500 Convertible, what do you think of it? Oh and yeah the R231 flopped because Mercedes messed up, not sure who else could have been at fault for that other than Mercedes lol. M
It is not all speculation. It has been reported for over a year now, from sources across the globe, that the new car will be a 2+2 with a fabric top, designed & built by AMG. In addition, spy photos show a car with an AMG GT sort of appearance, with a short rear deck that appears to be incapable of stowing a retractable hardtop. Of course, we will all wait to see the actual car and we all hope to be stunningly surprised, but the information that has been seeping out doesn’t look good to me.
Yes, you are right, add the LC500 to the list of rag top 2+2’s. If Lexus had done the retractable hardtop on this car, they would have had huge bragging rights and been there in the company of Ferrari. Instead, we are supposed to think this odd looking car is a big deal performance car. Yeah, right.
Don't forget the $75k C8 Corvette hardtop convertible.
The Corvette is not in the same group of hard top convertibles (foldable C-pillar). Corvette is like all other mid-engine variants (Ferrari, McLaren), also really comparable to the Porsche Targa roof mechanism; roof top-only...
It is not all speculation. It has been reported for over a year now, from sources across the globe, that the new car will be a 2+2 with a fabric top, designed & built by AMG. In addition, spy photos show a car with an AMG GT sort of appearance, with a short rear deck that appears to be incapable of stowing a retractable hardtop. Of course, we will all wait to see the actual car and we all hope to be stunningly surprised, but the information that has been seeping out doesn’t look good to me.
Yes, you are right, add the LC500 to the list of rag top 2+2’s. If Lexus had done the retractable hardtop on this car, they would have had huge bragging rights and been there in the company of Ferrari. Instead, we are supposed to think this odd looking car is a big deal performance car. Yeah, right.
You missed the point. I wasn't saying that we don't know about the specifications, I'm saying that you're drawing a conclusion based on those specifications without having seen or driven the car. Numbers or specs don't automatically define how the car will feel, look, drive, function. The only information seeping out is about pure specs, nothing about how it will drive or behave or anything which is I why I don't get the mood here. No one here knows anything beyond the platform and what type of top it will have. I don't see how you can doom a car just because it doesn't have a folding hard top. The rest of the car could be utterly brilliant despite that. Have you actually inspected the 992 911 convertible top? A traditional hardtop like on the SL isn't even needed anymore.
Hard tops are on the way out, they're cumbersome and expensive so I think you guys are going to have to get over that. No one is building one in the future. The LC500's design would have been killed having to store a folding hardtop.
You missed the point. I wasn't saying that we don't know about the specifications, I'm saying that you're drawing a conclusion based on those specifications without having seen or driven the car. Numbers or specs don't automatically define how the car will feel, look, drive, function. The only information seeping out is about pure specs, nothing about how it will drive or behave or anything which is I why I don't get the mood here. No one here knows anything beyond the platform and what type of top it will have. I don't see how you can doom a car just because it doesn't have a folding hard top. The rest of the car could be utterly brilliant despite that. Have you actually inspected the 992 911 convertible top? A traditional hardtop like on the SL isn't even needed anymore.
Hard tops are on the way out, they're cumbersome and expensive so I think you guys are going to have to get over that. No one is building one in the future. The LC500's design would have been killed having to store a folding hardtop.
M
I don't think anyone is "dooming" the car. I just think you are witnessing a reaction based on what information has been revealed. Some of us don't like certain changes. There is nothing wrong with that, this is after all a car forum, a place where we can share opinions.
I don't think anyone is "dooming" the car. I just think you are witnessing a reaction based on what information has been revealed. Some of us don't like certain changes. There is nothing wrong with that, this is after all a car forum, a place where we can share opinions.
Yeah some pretty much are writing it off just because it doesn't have a folding hard top, and making assumptions on how it will drive. You're right it' a place to share opinions, but I don't get it when no real information or when the car hasn't been presented yet. All we know is that it will share a platform with the GT and that it will have a soft top.
A traditional hardtop like on the SL isn't even needed anymore.
Hmm. Well, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. "Need" -- perhaps not, "Desire" -- for sure, particularly for some of us in colder climes where a rag top is unacceptable. Long live the retractable hardtop!
Hmm. Well, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. "Need" -- perhaps not, "Desire" -- for sure, particularly for some of us in colder climes where a rag top is unacceptable. Long live the retractable hardtop!
I drove a CLK430 Cabriolet in Chicago winters for years, no issues with heating or sealing. Has anyone here seen or inspected the 911 Cabrio's soft top? You'll see that a hard top isn't needed anymore from a functional standpoint.
I drove a CLK430 Cabriolet in Chicago winters for years, no issues with heating or sealing. Has anyone here seen or inspected the 911 Cabrio's soft top? You'll see that a hard top isn't needed anymore from a functional standpoint.
M
Nobody needs an SL or any other expensive car. At a certain price point needs have little relevance, it's about what people want. I bought my SL for many reasons but the lack of hardtop would have been a dealbreaker for me.
"Wants", otherwise we would be driving CLK's and not SL's. No thanks, not for me.
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Originally Posted by Germancar1
I drove a CLK430 Cabriolet in Chicago winters for years, no issues with heating or sealing. Has anyone here seen or inspected the 911 Cabrio's soft top? You'll see that a hard top isn't needed anymore from a functional standpoint.M
Cloth tops wear out and start to look shabby over time. Of course, it’s worse if the car is used in extreme climates. In addition, the insulated, multi-layer tops like MB & Porsche use are horribly expensive to replace and even when replacing with a complete, genuine, factory, replacement cover, using the best installer, the top will invariably have issues with leaking, squeaking, creaking, etc. You have not lived until you come back to your car and find that some criminal has sliced the fabric to gain entry to your car. I’ve been there and the car is never the same when repaired.
Nobody needs an SL or any other expensive car. At a certain price point needs have little relevance, it's about what people want. I bought my SL for many reasons but the lack of hardtop would have been a dealbreaker for me.
"Wants", otherwise we would be driving CLK's and not SL's. No thanks, not for me.
Who said anyone needed a SL? You missed the point about functionality about modern soft tops. I don't get the comment about need/want about the CLK and the SL.
Cloth tops wear out and start to look shabby over time. Of course, it’s worse if the car is used in extreme climates. In addition, the insulated, multi-layer tops like MB & Porsche use are horribly expensive to replace and even when replacing with a complete, genuine, factory, replacement cover, using the best installer, the top will invariably have issues with leaking, squeaking, creaking, etc. You have not lived until you come back to your car and find that some criminal has sliced the fabric to gain entry to your car. I’ve been there and the car is never the same when repaired.
Yeah that is true, but I never had that happen with any of the convertibles I owned, luckily. I didn't have any of those other problems in the 6+ years I had a Benz convertible. Hard tops can leak and creak also, it depends on good sealing just like a soft top does. I guess you guys are just gonna be buying something else, Benz is done with hardtops and so is most of the industry. Have you seen/inspected the soft top on the 992 911 Cabriolet?
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Slideshow: A one-of-one U.S.-spec Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Roadster became even rarer after a factory-backed transformation at McLaren's headquarters.
