Tifoso48

My experience with Burmester started with my 2016 S63 AMG and no matter how much I experimented I never got the system to a point of real enjoyment.

When our S63 got totaled in December, and the new one had not even been launched we bought a BMW Alpina which came equipped with the garden variety Harman Kardon which truly does an outstanding job.

So, for the new SL I went with the " High End" Burmester which I was sure would do a great job.

Audio in automobiles is inherently problematic in general, but even more so with convertibles, but I have to say I am really struggling coming up with great sound even with the roof closed. In convertible mode, between the wind, traffic noise and engine noise it really is next to impossible to get great sound, but I really had hoped that with the roof closed it would be excellent - but so far the experience is quite disappointing.

I have a call into Burmester in Berlin, and hopefully I will speak to them tomorrow - and maybe I am overlooking the obvious.

How has your experience with Burmester been?

benzbell

Mine has been great. I have the updated Burmester in my GLE 63. I also have no complaints with it in AMGs I've owned in the past. I've had some bad sound systems as well like the Sensonum for $3,800 in my Huracan EVO is a joke. Not to mention the upgraded Bose in my GT3 RS which was also horrible. In fairness to Bose that upgrade only cost $1,600 so Porsche didn't give them much to work with at that price point.

California John

In my 2016 GTS I had the standard Burmester sound system...but went for the High End system in my 2018 GTC. Both were convertibles. The difference between them was night and day for me. The High End system had much more clarity. Words were more distinct in both spoken (podcasts) or music of all types. I could finally make out the lyrics in certain songs! So in my ordered SL63 I included the High End system. Plus, in the High End system the lows were less "muddy" and more distinct and the highs were also more clear....easier to hear acoustic specifics. I felt more like I was in the recording studio.

Ben M Johnson

Compared to the b and o in my 2017 Audi r8 - it ain't even close but it does sound decent.

Tifoso48

So, I had a good conversation with the Burmester folks in Berlin ( my hometown) and I gave it another crack. It took me a bit of time fiddling around with the "personal preference" settings but I think I am now quite happy with the sound. Quite amazing the difference in music reproduction between radio and a HD streaming service like Deezer. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and will see how this all sounds on the road at speed.

RTC63

I have the Burmester High End 3D Surround System in my new SL63 AMG and I am really impressed, amazing system and even when I drive with an open roof, the sound is just amazing, basically no difference to a closed roof. Really impressive!

The only thing I do not get: There is no Dolby Atmos and it should work after the latest 2.4 update...

RTC63

OK, Dolby Atmos works...but only if you use the "internal" streaming feature of the MBUX, it doesn't seem to work with Apple CarPlay.
Also make sure you use Spatial Audio songs, otherwise it won't show the Dolby Atmos logo.
Same goes with Amazon Music, Dolby Atmos works with specific songs/audio files. Not through your phone though.
I still have an old MBUX software (329.xxx) but the latest is 445.xxx. Will get the MBUX update at my dealer mid of April.

Surge

How do you define “great sound”? I think that’s the crux of the matter, absent a defect with the system.

I have a million dollar 2-channel sound system at home. In my AMG GTC, I have the High End Burmeister and think it’s amazing (for what it is). I am truly happy with it: the clarity, the bass, the sense of presence without sounding artificial - it was well worth ~$6k. The Burmeister in the current gen G Wagon is not great - it’s “OK” but I would not call it anything special. I would assume that the High End Burmeister is going to be great in any car… but it depends on what your definition of “great” is.

Surge

Dolby ATMOS makes absolutely no sense in a car, so don’t worry about it. It was designed for multichannel movies and it requires a minimum of 12 speakers, placed at very specific positions (including at least 2 overhead, to properly reproduce the encoded soundtrack. And I also don’t know where you would get the tracks to stream or playback in a car.
So even if the automaker says you have ATMOS, you don’t have ATMOS.
I wouldn’t worry about it - it’s simply another artificial surround mode.

RTC63

Hmm...my Burmester 3D High End System has 17 speakers and yes, even overhead.
The system is licensed/certified for Dolby Atmos, so I'm not quite sure what you are saying.
Where to get the tracks from? Apple Spatial Audio for example?

Would you please clarify what you mean because I don't quite get it?!

Surge

Here's a link to a Dolby Atmos guide from Dolby: https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/tec...21318_r3.1.pdf

First - you are not listening to Dolby Atmos unless the source is encoded in Atmos. You also need an Atmos processor. To my knowledge, there are no streaming services that stream Atmos, so you will only get this in a car if you playback from a USB (or other) storage device.
Second, you need a minimum of 2 overhead speakers.
Third and most important, Atmos is a technology for theater surround sound, it has nothing to do with car audio. What Dolby is doing is trying to sell more licenses by slapping an Atmos label on a car stereo.

If/when I have a car with "Atmos" I would just turn it off, as it's just adding a fake surround effect, which you can already get with a Burmeister system.

RTC63

Still confused: Apple Spatial Audio files downloaded(!) to my iPhone are encoded in Dolby Atmos as far as I understand. Same goes to Apple Spatial Audio files streamed through the MBUX built-in Online streaming for Apple Music and Amazon Music.
Also, the SL63 with Burmester 3D High End system has 2 overhead speakers.
Dolby Atmos is not only for theaters but also music and even podcasts (check out Amazon Musik lately).

Assuming that what you say is correct: Why do I get the Dolby Atmos logo (see attached photo) when playing Apple Spatial Audio files through my Burmester 3D High End system?
Also, Mercedes advertises Dolby Atmos for the Burmester 3D High End Audio. Care to explain? Thanks.

Surge

It is pure marketing! You are not getting true Dolby Atmos. This is a theater standard, it has nothing to do with car audio or even for 2 channel music.
Don't confuse Dolby's attempt to increase sales with the true intent of this codec.
I mean if it makes you feel better to see the Atmos logo, that's great - I'm not trying to take away from that. I'm just trying to make people aware that there's nothing "wrong" with your car system if you don't have Atmos.

Atmos in a car is a fake surround format, it has nothing to do with playing back a native 10 channel audio track, as you would for example when watching an Atmos movie. Proper Atmos has 9 full range channels and 1 LFE (low frequency effects) channel.
What you are talking about is all 2 channel, with a fake surround effect to make it sound more "spatial". There is nothing new here, any Burmeister system has that by default. Personally, I prefer to listen to the track as the engineer/artist intended. For music, unless it's coming to me in more than 2 tracks, it's in stereo.

Here's another link: https://professional.dolby.com/sitea...ifications.pdf
Requirements:
- The loudspeakers must be capable of full dynamic range
No in car system can do this
- Each screen loudspeaker system and associated amplifiers must have a maximum output capability of 105 dB continuous sound pressure level (SPL)
No Burmeister system can do this

drgek

I'm no audiophile, but I've experienced high-end car stereos for years. My take:

The base Burmester is far superior to the $5K optional Burmester in a 911.
It's better than the B&O's I've had in a couple of Audis.
I've never heard the upgraded Burmester so can't offer an opinion, but I've never been a big fan of digital sound processing.

My 2008 Ferrari 599 had the optional Bose upgrade which, for reasons that remained unclear to me, would not permit the user to adjust any equalization parameters. Somebody in a car audio shop in California figured out a way to hack the head unit to unlock that "feature" and it improved tremendously.

I mostly listen to podcasts so it's all moot, but since the bulk of music library was downloaded from iTunes it's not clear to me how much additional quality could be gained from upgrading to the optional unit (although, knowing myself, I would have done so if I factory ordered the car.)

All that Atmos talk is at a level I can't begin to appreciate.

RTC63

So I guess I should sue Dolby and Mercedes for false claims/advertisement or even FRAUD?

Press Information (Dolby Atmos for Mercedes Benz Cars)

California John

Thanks for the press release. Great info there.

Surge

Yup, it’s really great. “4D sound”?! Come on! It’s sad if this is the new Mercedes Benz. What a bunch of BS: adding fake surround to 2 channel tracks and calling it “Atmos” is hilariously bad.
And if owners don’t push back, it won’t get better.

Raulr

It s Dolby Atmos MUSIC.
It is available on Apple Music. What is the big deal? Quality is much better than old audio files, Apple Music has 2 higher quality stands. The higher one you can not really play without a special decoder. Won t just play over iphone-bluetooth/cable.

Pharaon

Added an account here so I could point out how completely inaccurate Surge is on this topic. And it's concerning with how much confidence you assert an objectively wrong conclusion (though there are some points in here with which I agree like 4D sound branding.. lol). I wouldn't want someone to decide not to get the system based off of that misinformation.

Atmos encoded music -- or Spatial Music in the Apple world -- is phenomenal, when mastered well. These tracks are remixed or remastered by audio engineers from original multi-track recordings to place the sounds of instruments or people within physical space, add reverb or motion effects to sounds across the sound-field, etc. Frequently these tracks are mastered with less dynamic compression, so even down-mixed to stereo if you don't have an Atmos decoder and fully capable speakers, some audiophiles still prefer the Atmos versions.

Let me say this: Atmos music is NOT a gimmick. It is phenomenal. I listen in my Dynaudio Contour series home listening & media room and after decades of believing that the very highest end audio is delivered by just two phenomenal speakers and stereo recordings, there is now finally a new standard on the market that upends that. I have a Burmester 3d equipped SL63 arriving next week and I'm excited to try the Atmos implementation here.

As an aside, really wild that they have installed speakers into the soft top ("Spider Actuators"). Does anybody know how these are implemented?

Surge

You are comparing real Atmos multi-track as you would get from a 7 channel surround receiver at home to what is in car. In these cars, it’s not a multi-channel decoder, and the source is 2 channel, not 7!

I have a million dollar media room, with a Trinnov surround decoder (Trinnov makes the hardware sound engineers use to mix multi-track content). I know what I am talking about.

I agree with you that true multi-track Atmos music can be great. This is not what is in cars.

Pharaon

Surge - if there is truly no decoding of Atmos in the car then I would fully agree with you.. and would pound the table on deceptive advertising as well.

My understanding is that on their "3D" and "4D" branded Burmester lines, there is now true Atmos decoding, feeding a discrete multi-channel signal to the amps and then speakers. Remember that Atmos is object based so supports many different speaker configurations.

I would be surprised if they are down mixing Atmos to 2 channel and then redistributing to all speakers (with or with out some rigged DSP). Their press release doesn't say "we're not being fraudulent" but it sure does seem to say that there is true Atmos decoding and multi-channel implementation happening here. And Dolby has signed on to it as well (they can be bought; that is their business model, but their business model is in large part a licensing and standards orgs). They specifically refer to placing objects in space etc which would be pretty shady to misrepresent if theyre just down mixing the Atmos mix to 2 channel (again, not ruling out the possibility of puffery).

I'm genuinely curious, in the spirit of uncovering the correct answer (fortunately there is an objective correct one here once facts are established) : What has you convinced that they are not doing what they say they are doing?

The good news is there are two good sources for determining the nature of the implementation:
1) Listening to it - Plenty of reviews out there, including What Hi-Fi, are data points, but to me not fully conclusive. Though What Hi-Fi is a pretty good indicator. I will easily be able to tell whether this is a down mixed stereo Atmos track that was redistributed. Once the SL63 arrives, I'm committed to following up here. (Nobody need take my word, but this doesn't require a Golden Ears audiophile. I switch back and forth from stereo to Atmos music mixes and have a reference playlist in my media room. It's painfully obvious; and a good Atmos mix like Elton John's Rocketman adds a layer of sublimity that even complete lay people are taken aback by when listening)
2) Contacting Burmester support - they seem to be responsive. Mercedes perhaps as well.

In any case, I don't have 100% certainty but I'd be willing to bet a substantial amount that this is a legitimate (true multi-channel decoding, including height and rear/surround), but I don't have incontrovertible evidence, yet. And will readily admit if I'm wrong on this call if we find support to the contrary. The alternative is too shady and I don't think both MB and Dolby would go there (no opinion on Burmester one way or another).

Surge

Hi, I spoke to someone from Trinnov at a major audio show who confirmed this; but I agree, you should check with your own car.
First, you need a true ATMOS multi-channel source. That’s not easy to get. I’m not sure you can stream it, and even if you can, I’m not sure if it will stream in multi-channel in the car.

I’m sure that what you get in the car is a “surround effect” from a 2 channel source. Is it entertaining and will it play loudly, without distortion — yes, I’m sure it will. But this is not true ATMOS as it’s a 2-ch source being made to sound like multi-channel. This was my point.

Dolby will ‘license anything that walks’ - just because the logo is there it doesn’t mean anything. In this case, it is “doing” something — it’s creating a (hopefully) realistic surround field from a 2-ch source.
Burmeister car audio is a very different product line than the home audio. A home audio Burmeister system easily costs more than the entire SL63.

Pharaon

Surge - I fully understand your point and this is helpful because now I am confident you are just behind on the latest developments in the space; no offense! It is okay to be misinformed, but best not to speak authoritatively when you don't have good reason to back it up.

Let me be super clear: All sources (Car maker, Audio system mfg, Dolby) and independent reviews indicate that this is a true Multi-channel, Atmos source. It is decoded in multi-channel Atmos, with multiple channels sent discretely to multiple speakers. Specifically this is a 6.2.1 Atmos configuration with 9 independent channels: Left, Right, Center, Height 1, Height 2, Left/Right Surround, Rear Center, and Sub.

You are objectively mistaken on this matter: The Atmos source is no longer hard to get. It is in 60% of America's pocket as Apple has beautifully encoded Atmos in their Music store (before that, in a more niche way, Tidal had it for years and I was a subscriber). The Atmos source is Spatial Audio through Apple Music in-car app when streamed using the in-car head unit's app. You can stream this through multiple devices, in other contexts.. including a $130 AppleTV + Atmos integrated amp in a home context, as well as through iOS devices if connected to a compatible decoder. This is NOT a 2.0 down-mixed stream (unless you have proof to substantiate your assertion of misrepresentation and incorrectness of reviewers who are actually in the audio review industry). There is nothing mysterious about this. Lucid has it, Volvo has announced it, along with other automakers.

I don't see a single proof point for your assertion. Please provide one, otherwise this is misleading to people trying to decide on their car purchase, and this thread is one of the only search results for people looking into this topic for their AMG SL.

Surge

It is you who are confused . No offence intended.

You are confusing the # of channels of the amplification and speakers with the content. Yes, in the car you have many speakers, and each speaker (or almost every speaker) has its own amp/channel. That does not mean you are listening to multi-channel audio! I can take a 2 channel stereo signal and pump it through 50 speakers, each speaker with its own amp "channel". I am still listening to stereo -- albeit with surround affects artificially added.

Apple Spatial is 2 channel. From Apple's website directly:
Spatial Audio transcends the limits of two-channel stereo recordings to add an entirely new dimension to how listeners hear songs on Apple Music.
https://artists.apple.com/support/28...mpelling-sound

"Transcends the limits" is marketing speak for 2 channel .

I don't think you realize how much bandwidth you need for true 7 channel Dolby Atmos content. A single Atmos track is at least 200MB, and that's not in high-res audio (high-res would by ~500MB).

Everything you are streaming is 2 channel. The "Atmos" label (more specifically, Binaural Atmos) gives you the impression it is real surround (it's not).
Binaural Atmos is 2 channel that adds a "surround" effect, primarily for headphone listening. This is still fake. True binaural involves recording the original content in binaural and requires your head shape and ears to be specifically measured, as done by Smyth in their award winning Realizer, which is used by mastering engineers to properly recreate a surround effect with headphones. Again, here, the content is true multi-channel.

You have fallen prey to the marketing team at Dolby, Burmeister, and Mercedes. That's totally OK -- that was the point of my post. It doesn't mean you won't love the audio system in the car. My point was it offers nothing than the previous gen Burmester (without "Atmos") has... unless you like the added surround effect.

Pharaon

Oh this is funny. I am not confused in the least. You will be excited, and embarrassed (given how assertive you have been on being correctly informed) that Atmos is multi-channel, not stereo and when you learn that Apple Music - one of the most popular streaming platforms in the world, streams true multi-channel Atmos content.

Atmos and by-proxy, Spatial Audio is not two channel, sir (up to 64, actually, though I'd imagine music-specific streams support less.. somewhere between 9-64. The exact details I dont care to understand but I do know its way more than 2) . Audio engineers spend countless hours remixing or remastering source material into Atmos/Spatial Audio. Even the source of classic recordings is almost universally not recorded in just two channels.

Google and doing basic research is helpful before writing in caps and underlining things that are objectively wrong.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...-spatial-audio
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/wh...y-atmos-music/

The list goes on and on. Maybe cc the random Trinnov guy you talked to at a trade show. The million dollar+ expenditure on your media room is more cause for embarrassment now than authority, given your investment in a space you do not understand. Yes my last statement probably sounds personal, but it's fine to mislead yourself... not great to then share the mania with others.