SL55/63/65/R230 AMG: 2009 Vette ZR1 or 2009 Benz SL65???
#251
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Lotus Elise SLK55
I'd get a Z06 and save the rest for something else. The ZR1 will be fast but personally I'd rather have a Vette w/o a supercharger. The GTR is fast too but way too ugly, personally, for that kind of money.
Whoever says Corvettes can't turn are obviously tools. That was funny like ten years ago. The Z06 and its cousins the C5R and C6R have proven otherwise.
Whoever says Corvettes can't turn are obviously tools. That was funny like ten years ago. The Z06 and its cousins the C5R and C6R have proven otherwise.
Agreed 100%. A C6 Corvette with twin-turbo kit will wipe the floor with a ZR1 for 1/2 the cost. I seriously doubt that they will find many buyers for a $100,000 Corvette, especially with such strong aftermarket support these cars have. Supercharger is nice, but for the ultimate power, twin-turbo is the only way to go
#252
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I seriously doubt that they will find many buyers for a $100,000 Corvette, especially with such strong aftermarket support these cars have.
If one is willing to go aftermarket, and roll the dice, well, then everything changes. If its just a case of performance for the money, one could have a 800-1000 BHP crate engine on boost, etc., and have racecar like capability. Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, Toyota, Honda, etc., all will gladly accommodate you.
The trick is to get as much as you possibly can without voiding the warranty and otherwise altering the car too much. ZR1 offers quite a package - a supercar under warranty that can be serviced practically anywhere. Also bear in mind that at Barrett Jackson auctions, ZR1's have already sold for $1M plus. (I posted links in this thread on that.)
Just something to consider.
Last edited by c2jones; 05-10-2008 at 01:06 AM.
#253
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SL55, Jeep SRT-8, CLS550
I guess if you're intent on buying one of those pieces of crap you might want to do it soon. I'm sure that when Obama becomes President, he'll increase CAFE standards enough to discourage GM from "hand-making (ha-ha)" gas sucking engines.
#254
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to discourage GM from "hand-making (ha-ha)" gas sucking engines.
Corvette does not even suffer a gas-guzzler's tax.
Is that the case with your 55 or 550?
But what would you know.
#255
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08 S65, 06 M3 CS(stick), 02 BMW X5 4.6iS, 07 R1 Raven, 08 F-450 4x4, 08 CooperS JCW
Another half-wit spouting off about things they know nothing about. That "piece of crap" has better reliability ratings than any MB you own and, are you referencing gas-sucking?
Corvette does not even suffer a gas-guzzler's tax.
Is that the case with your 55 or 550?
But what would you know.
Corvette does not even suffer a gas-guzzler's tax.
Is that the case with your 55 or 550?
But what would you know.
Z06 will put power down better than ZR1 from a stop.
#256
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CLS63, GLK350
Another half-wit spouting off about things they know nothing about. That "piece of crap" has better reliability ratings than any MB you own and, are you referencing gas-sucking?
Corvette does not even suffer a gas-guzzler's tax.
Is that the case with your 55 or 550?
But what would you know.
Corvette does not even suffer a gas-guzzler's tax.
Is that the case with your 55 or 550?
But what would you know.
#257
Senior Member
Wow. Lot of anger.
And on the gas-guzzling issue, this person, along with many of the uninformed (and the MB people here are just as bad as anywhere else) on this topic, is clearly wrong.
Z06 will put power down better than ZR1 from a stop.
#258
Senior Member
strange how everyone that disagrees with you is a idiot
And you are amongst the last here to be leveraging points about the mannerisms of others. Just reread your comments about ***** sizes and all that other weak, petty juvenile content, with substance at the nil level.
#259
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Many people that were shopping MB's and learned of their atrocious reliability record over the last several years could not justify the added excessive pricing just so that they could be bathed in fine leather. That seems such a vane reason to elect one's choice of car. We've been through this before.
Besides, again, is it any different for most brand loyalists? You miss the excuse making of many MB faithful that overlook, ignore or hide their reliability issues in their prestige mobiles and almost like a cult, seem needy of what their car does for their image - not the car in of itself, as is their motivation. (Have you read some of their comments in this thread of late? Its rather clear.)
This ensures that the lights will not go out for MB because despite quality setbacks (and reliability is part of quality), and they have had build issues, too, their faithful (for their own internal reasons) must have their cars come hell or high water, and will promptly overpay towards getting that "look at me" factor going.
Some even feel their MB will substitute for their own character when it comes to the dating arena, etc. Sometimes one has to take a second look to believe what one is reading!)
MB knows this and must have laughed all the way to the bank as they targeted American vanity during their hayride here of late. And I know that you know exactly what I'm talking about.
Please spare me this BS with singling about Mercedes-Benz. ALL luxury car markers appeal to vanity. Have you seen a Cadillac commercial lately? For that matter sports car do to. There is no where on an U.S. road that you can use a 638hp Corvette anywhere near its full potential so it all has a twinge vanity and want, not need and sensibility. Like GM doesn't pander to this same crowd or at least wants too.
So, I ask, how is one so different from another; how is it excuse making for one brand while simply staying the course with another?
Finally, what you call excuse making may really not be at all. If someone whom owns a GM product that is satisfied with their interior and build quality, and reports to actually favor their experience with their GM car, you automatically label this excuse making as they could not possibly see it any other way than yours, with superior MB build quality and the whole lot.
No I don't label what you've just stated as excuse making. I'd say it is was just a person who doens't know any better. YES, what you've tried to do here is make an excuse for the Corvette. Just because it can perform or outperform it doesn't have to be as well built as other sports cars. That is your excuse.
They must be in total denial to not see their cars as YOU see them. That's what this boils down to.
M
#260
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Its starts before you even see the car, with preconceived perceptions. But enough of this, if you want to stay on your perch that MB interiors are superior in every way (which has not even been the direct challenge), fine.
On that the Corvettes (with the upgraded leather option) are not giving one enough car for their $100K, in this case with ZR1... that is simply preposterous in any logical translation.
If you need better interior, opt for the aftermarket Caravaggio enhancement to ZR1. One then still gets the better pricing for greater performance (than even 65 Black Series) and better interior. Then, guys like you can have your cake and eat it to. See?
Why in the world should I have to do that on a 100K car. When you don't get it you really don't get it. What other 100K car on the market do you need to run to the aftermarket to make the interior worth of the original asking price? That is just plum ridiculous.
M
#261
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I never said that you did not acknowledge those quality (reliability) issues, and I even told you that I developed further respect for you in that you did make such acknowledgment. The point is that you keep inferring that as long as one makes a better interior that mechanical mishaps matter much less.
A
nd THIS is the greater discrepancy between us. You imply that mechanical mishaps should be more tolerated just as long it possesses better interiors.
This is woefully imbalanced and indicative of your personal persuasion. Now you're throwing Porsche into the mix (as if they were not a luxury car as well with a performance heritage compared to a baseline GM mass-produced product, of all things to compare it to) to suggest one is offering one more for the same $100K. Again, what is more for one may not be more for another.
For the price of ZR1 and what its design intention is for, few can match the overall package, especially in terms of value. Its preference. That's the point. Nothing more.
You get what you pay for, blistering performance and cheapo everything else that isn't related to that performance.
M
#262
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Jury is still out here. Simply because you say one is showing improvement and state that the other isn't, is no foundation for anything. Certainly this is not universally accepted as stated. And again, a luxury automaker gouging people despite miserable service records should have never been the case in the first place. Your use of "that was the past but its getting better" amounts to zero. It is neither demonstrable fact nor altering of the point. (The Pope no longer supports the ***** either, but this in no way offsets the admitted fact that once he did in the past.) Just making a point about overlooking the past; in this case, and again, that jury is still out.
SL: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/mercede...07/Convertible
S-Class: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/mercedes/s-class/2007
E-Class: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/mercede...***/2007/sedan
These models have been big problems for MB in the past, even in this little "initial quality" survey, especially the E and SL. The S-Class was a brand new model for 2007 yet it placed ahead of every other car in the survey. If that doesn't at the very least say Mercedes quality is changing for the better I don't know what does. At the very least it is a start. Even you should be able to understand that since you believe everything a survey tells you about a Corvette.
I said Germans, not specifically MB. And (as noted previously in this thread) Ferrari and others have licensed no MB technology while they have licensed that of Corvette. (You said you read the whole thread - then surely you have seen my comments in this regard covering all this.)
As I stated earlier in this thread, many see a novelty with the ZR1 as a collectible. This naturally will help its added value well into the future. Barrett Jackson Auctions states Corvette is king of the collectibles in volume and results. ZR1 will especially be the case.
Yeah, MB's quality (which you finally admit includes reliability) went up for all that money... They have been woeful. But according to you, that's "getting better," and this should suffice. After all, their problems of just a few years ago (and in truth could be little changed to date...) are Millions and millions and millions of years ago and one must stay current. Uh, yeah. That's it.
All cars have faults from time to time. And everything IS relative, of course. Paying twice as much for twice the time in the shop is not more desirable than another's choice to have less plush interiors while having more dependability overall. Again, your habit of your preference as fact.
Like advanced handmade composites panels that 65 BS is now duplicated.
Body Monocoque pillarless hardtop coupe with hybrid steel, aluminum and magnesium body.1 Composite front fenders and trunk lid. Advanced crumple zones. High-strength/low-alloy steel reinforcements in critical areas. Coefficient of drag: 0.28.
This has been in use long before the ZR-1! The SL65 BS isn't "duplicating" squat from a Corvette.
And like advanced aluminum framework that exceeds safety standards even without the outer panels on it. There's more too. (I covered all this in earlier postings here - the ones you read.)
I said disappointing, not so much terrible, and this was on reviews of the models over the last few years. If this gets better, great. It certainly should for that price. On your 'Corvette is not improving while SL's troubles are a thing of the archaic past' angle, well, we shall see. On the latter, I hope you're right.
I never said GM had no flaws. Please. Talk about senility and bloated distortions. I even told you that I have also been part of discussions on some of those flaws about GM to where some thought I was a MB loyalist. Imagine how they'd see you.)
If you ran MB, you might disconnect the complaint lines and tell everyone to get over it and just pucker up and pay.. you'd tell them that their current car with current issues is part of the archaeological past and all their troubles should be overlooked. But the Daimler-Benz people would just love you.... like the Nuremberg rallies.
See? MB's issues have just miraculously went away... because you said so. And the Corvette still has all these issues because you said so.
We're talking about millions of years old dated matters (on cars that are STILL on the road with payments STILL being made upon them) because, you guessed it, you said so. Even if things are bettering for MB, to relegate everything to the distant past is ludicrous.
Nonsense. If GM truly wanted to wrap your delicate rump in the world's finest leather and give you dashboards you could lick clean they easily could. Its not their market. You connect the Corvettes body panels as cheap while overlooking the actual costs of the materials going into these cars comparatively. (I presented specifics on this [steel vs. composites] in those earlier posts you say you read.)
You are all the things you impose upon others and worse. Honestly.
Yeah, not breaking down isn't important whatsoever.
The Corvette is not a luxury car and it should not be expected to place you in your plush interior utopia to please you. As for ZR1 and the upgraded interior option (built by the same people who build interiors on MB, Aston, Veyron and others), its more than adequate especially for what gets everyone for that price. It offers advanced technology (that SL65 BS is just now duplicating) and that others are sharing and or licensing technology from, all for its very reasonable price. If one wants more in an interior, there's always Caravaggio as I mentioned (with picture) earlier, all for under the price of 65, especially 65 BS. This does not mean that I have low appreciation for the 65 - nothing could be further from the truth - its only that quality (reliability) must come back to justify its pricing and that others makes, like ZR1, have their redeeming points as well.
Ahh..the grandest signoff (EXCUSE) of them all. No one said the Corvette should have a luxury car interior, only one that is better than 40K Cadillac seeing as how the 2 cars are built by the same company. One shouldn't have to run to the aftermarket for interior work on a 100K!!!! That is beyond said that you proffer such an option! The SL65 Black Series isn't "duplicating" anything that hasn't been done before on other cars! Period. You just keep chanting about reliability and I'll just keep harping about how junky the Corvette is. Keep thinking that just because the same interior supplier is used that this automatically means a Corvette and a Benz have the same interior quality. Nothing could be more ridiculous. Any sighted person can tell that this isn't the case.
Yet I bet that because Ferrari and other used the same supplier that doesn't automatically mean they deliver the same peformance does it?
M
#263
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
The issue was whether the ZR1 will be worth the $100K all things considered. Some here feel that the ZR1 interior, even with the same updated leather package performed by the same vendor as MB, Maybach, Veyron and others, still falls short and that Corvette, including ZR1 has "cheaop" interiors no better than a Malibu.
I disagreed with this notion. Corvette interiors may not be that of MB, but MB is a luxury car and more is expected of it, naturally.
Still, to many Corvette owners, their interiors are quite fine with them and they have no misgivings with it. This is their rightful choice. Regarding ZR1, the package is quite extensive for what one gets for the price. Advanced composites handmade (panels, engines) and technology mirrored and licensed from makes costing many times as much. I have relayed all this here.
Advanced composites and handmade engines and panels have what to do with interior and build quality? Again, more smear tactics for the discussed issue.
Finally, if one requires an upgraded interior, Caravaggio will be quick to accommodate, and the total price will still be less than the SL65 (and more fittingly Black Series) for which this thread was originated about.
Few here regard the two cars in the same market, but if one is choosing between them for whatever their reasons are, this came of discussion here. (This GTR thing is well off the topic.) The focus became quality and fit and finish, and reliability and value
No it didn't. No one, or at least I, ever questioned the ZR-1's value regarding peformance. You brought value and reliability up because you needed something to counter the Corvette's junky build.
What you refuse to address is that lesser GM cars are better built as are other SPORTS CARS, yet you'll keep bringing up that MB is a luxury car when in fact other makes aren't luxury car and they're better built. You have yet to address this other than a half-arsed attempt to call Porsche a "luxury car maker".
M
#264
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
From the Winter 2007 Corvette Quarterly’s report (pgs. 43-49) on the Corvette’s upgraded interior: “The console components were also manufactured by Draxlmaier.” The article then goes on to described in detail Draxlmaier’s hydrographic process for manufacturing said console components. So the notion that Draxelmaier is “only supplying GM with the basics like the leather finish and stitching” is, again, materially false, figuratively and literally.
I have not noticed further comments from those magazines implying the STS-V did not "match" those MB models, nor have others I've corresponded with, but as they say the former "works for them," without any disclaimer or clarification, I think its safe to say they deemed all presentations relatively on par with each other.
Both have fine, stitched-leather instrument panels. GMPD contracted Drexel Meyer, which also does Maybach's leather, to handle the leather and suede hides on the STS-v's dash, seats, and door panels. And it has heated rear seats, while the Benz has them only up front. But the Cadillac driver seat isn't as comfortable for long hauls, especially compared with the Mercedes's well-bolstered perforated leather and suede front seats. The v treatment is added to an STS interior, but falls short of its luxury intentions. This (admittedly good) patch job can't match an interior designed richly from the carpeting up, especially now that Mercedes is rebounding on interior quality.
Motor Trend sums up exactly what I've been saying, you can't add leather and fancy sticthing to an interior that was a cheap mess to begin with and expect it to match the competition. POOF! There goes your same supplier = same quality theory. This is the same reason why adding leather and other trinkets to a Corvette interior DOES NOT put it on the same level with other 100K cars no matter what other brand is.
Your correspondents says that it "works for them"? Insert laughter. Hell the interior a Saturn ION "worked" for a lot of people too! What does that prove or mean?
From their later comparison test in January 2006 Car and Driver noted that, “Inside, the STS-V is richly appointed with enough leather to clothe a small herd of Black Angus — hides on the door panels and dashboard, as well as the seats. The latter have suede inserts to help keep occupants centered in hard cornering, although more bolstering would help. Cadillac enlisted Dräxlmaier for the V's interior décor. The same outfit did the Maybach, and if the Caddy has no granite trim option, it does have olive-stained ash. The whole package is tasteful, roomy, and arguably the most comfortable in this threesome, thanks to the relatively creamy ride and best control layout of the bunch.” Said threesome included notably, a 2006 Mercedes CLS55.
In their February 2005 review Road and Track described the STS-V as having, “An attractive and sumptuous cabin.”
For their part, Motor Trend said of the STS-V’s interior in comparison to a CLS55, “Both have fine, stitched-leather instrument panels. GMPD contracted Drexel Meyer (sic), which also does Maybach's leather, to handle the leather and suede hides on the STS-v's dash, seats, and door panels. And it has heated rear seats, while the Benz has them only up front.”
The article notes that the authors thought the Mercedes’ seats to be more comfortable for the long haul and that they wished Draxlmaier had been there from the ground up but described Draxlmaier’s work as “admittedly good” and then adds that one problem for Cadillac’s interior in the comparison was that “Mercedes is rebounding on interior quality.”
Rebounding? One would think they had never dropped off, given assertions that MB never dropped the ball anywhere else than mechanical gremlins, etc. Fit and finish was said to be the mainstay. On point, the assessment that MB is improving while Corvette is not, is incorrect. Both are improving, but the former most dramatically, to its credit (and yes, overdue).
So once again, the assertions that reviewers have “pointed out over and over” supposed lesser standards of Draxlmaier’s work with Cadillac and that “This isn't news to me, Cadillac made a big deal about it with the STS-V only to have the same old complaints about GM's interior being cheap come right back,” are, again, repeatedly incorrect.
You'd like to think this because YOU DIDN'T POST THE WHOLE PARAGRAPH FROM MOTOR TREND! They clearly stated that a "PATCH JOB" doesn't cut it when Mercedes started out with a higher quality interior to begin with.
Did you really think I wasn't going to remember that comparo and not post all of what Motor Trend acutally said? Oh you GM excuse makers are so easy to prove wrong its laughable. You left out the meat of the quote!!! Which was:
"The v treatment is added to an STS interior, but falls short of its luxury intentions. This (admittedly good) patch job can't match an interior designed richly from the carpeting up, especially now that Mercedes is rebounding on interior quality."
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These assertions do, however, speak to the adamant notions (and overly pronounced partisanship) of some critics who, were apparently never totally aware of these facts in the first place, continue a “research by proclamation” approach in the hope that something, anything, will be readily believed by a supposedly (GM) gullible audience.
I am prone to finding this suggestive that you, like some others (most), were then (and remain now) unaware of those relevant details.
It was simply noted that they do share the same interior supplier whose work (noting actual reviews above as opposed to your wayward implications of same) remains exemplary both in the Corvette’s (upgraded leather option) interior and that in Bugatti’s.
You are looking to dismiss this with notions of inequality with interior applications from one make over another. What is especially clear is that modern Corvette interiors with advanced leather option (for those that require this in a supercar as you would, on the idea of a $100K car looking like one inside), is quite adequate all things considered, and certainly a long way from the "same" as Malibu and Cobalt, and other skewed remarks of this kind.
Just making a point that old perceptions are just that. That's all.
M
#265
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Another notable item of reference regarding interior updating, this from Car and Driver's road test of the all-new CTS, "Possibly the most dramatic improvement to the CTS is the upscale and coherently flowing interior, complete with classy materials and top-notch fit and finish. Cadillac's least-expensive car certainly doesn't feel that way, and it upstages the '08 Mercedes C-class."
Food for thought.
Food for thought.
Yep you have no trouble posting that. I've said right here from the very begining that the CTS has a great interior, especially for a GM car.
Funny how you posted that, yet you left the part about the STS-V's interior being a patch job and how it didn't measure up, out of your posts.
Real food for thought!
M
#267
Senior Member
I feel bad for the people who actually read all of these posts.
Others want to talk GTR or juvenile content (***** sizes, etc.). So, not all is quality content - for what is, most of this has already been hashed and we're talking in circles now. I'll try to limit my responses to what is pertinent and hasn't already been covered.
#268
Member
c2jones:
I'm baaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccccccccccck!
The GTR will eat the Corvette for lunch - especially when someone gets to drive and sit in each of them.
Let's see if Nissan will have to offer $7,000.00 incentives 4 years after the GTR is launched.
Most people under 60 will go for the GTR and it's MUCH BETTER interior, not to mention the hotter looking body styling.
If someone is looking to score looks from young women, the GTR is the way to go.
The Corvette is great for guys who answer to the name the "Fonzie" and rock out to "Happy Days" music while driving.
You can talk all you want, but the 'Vette (while an American icon) is still considered by many to be an older man's car.
Remember this saying - "you can sell an old man a young man's car, but you can't sell a young man an old man's car."
Also, if Corvette is using the same cow for leather as Mercedes Benz, then Benz is getting the filet mignon cuts and Corvette the rump roast.......
I'm baaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccccccccccck!
The GTR will eat the Corvette for lunch - especially when someone gets to drive and sit in each of them.
Let's see if Nissan will have to offer $7,000.00 incentives 4 years after the GTR is launched.
Most people under 60 will go for the GTR and it's MUCH BETTER interior, not to mention the hotter looking body styling.
If someone is looking to score looks from young women, the GTR is the way to go.
The Corvette is great for guys who answer to the name the "Fonzie" and rock out to "Happy Days" music while driving.
You can talk all you want, but the 'Vette (while an American icon) is still considered by many to be an older man's car.
Remember this saying - "you can sell an old man a young man's car, but you can't sell a young man an old man's car."
Also, if Corvette is using the same cow for leather as Mercedes Benz, then Benz is getting the filet mignon cuts and Corvette the rump roast.......
#269
Senior Member
German, I had a full response ready, and then there was a problem with the server as I lost all what I had. Full rebuttal coming, but efficient and countering the redundancy that you make pattern of. Will dissect you thoroughly.
#270
Senior Member
German
Reading through your responses, way too much of the time you are addressing items that are to be countered or readdressed in the same posting (just a few spaces down the page) and often (too often) you are addressing your own inquiries with my previous words that you (inadvertently but conveniently) quote that cover all what you presented. Too much redundancy. I will attempt to stick only to the central points, dealing with your typos, to translate intent.
You DO make excuses. You suggest that as long as build quality is sound, that reliability matters less, as if reliability was not part of the full quality aspect. Just wrong altogether. Once you admitted that everything makes up what quality is defined as, but true to form, you lose your way and go back to splitting them up. This is clearly reflective of an internally motivated ingredient within you, more than any clear consensus on the matter.
Nope. No excuses necessary. There is simply no consensus that it is not well-built, much less totally reliant upon performance to offset said quality. Simple.
Fittingly and tellingly, terms like "rattletrap, junky, cheapo," etc., are not intellectual terms. These are terms used by the bias intoxicants, and this undermines the overall wherewithal of the writer.
With regard to ZR1, the premise of this discussion, no one worth their salt, certainly no one within the major automotive journalism arena will even remotely concur with this outlandish assessment.
What is "plum" (a deep south term...) ridiculous is that somehow you have anything remotely resembling a worthy consensus that this car, interior and all, will not be worth the overall asking price, all things considered. Dealers are getting twice the asking price now and, auctions have acquired $1M USD. I know of no recent production MB doing this. So, "worth the asking price" is extremely relative to the consumer.
A very astute forum sponsor here made an important, very valid point that the remotely balanced and composed mind can easily appreciate: "...don't knock current GM quality against MBZ build quality. If you read AUTOMOTOR UND SPORT, and SPORT AUTO, the main enthusiast magazines in Germany, you will find that MBZ is rated about 10th in quality among the brands sold in Germany...by Germans. BMW is low too. Audi and the Japanese cars are higher, so is Cadillac and Buick."
This vendor has customers all over the world. On an overall scope, perceptions are as diversified as the people that have them. Everything must be kept in proper perspective.
I haven't made any excuses. I have clearly and fully admitted that MB made some clunkers during their darkest years, roughly 1998-2005, depending on the chassis/model.
what you've tried to do here is make an excuse for the Corvette. Just because it can perform or outperform it doesn't have to be as well built as other sports cars. That is your excuse.
Fittingly and tellingly, terms like "rattletrap, junky, cheapo," etc., are not intellectual terms. These are terms used by the bias intoxicants, and this undermines the overall wherewithal of the writer.
you're willing to accept shody build and flimsy materials because of greater peformance.
What other 100K car on the market do you need to run to the aftermarket to make the interior worth of the original asking price? That is just plum ridiculous.
A very astute forum sponsor here made an important, very valid point that the remotely balanced and composed mind can easily appreciate: "...don't knock current GM quality against MBZ build quality. If you read AUTOMOTOR UND SPORT, and SPORT AUTO, the main enthusiast magazines in Germany, you will find that MBZ is rated about 10th in quality among the brands sold in Germany...by Germans. BMW is low too. Audi and the Japanese cars are higher, so is Cadillac and Buick."
This vendor has customers all over the world. On an overall scope, perceptions are as diversified as the people that have them. Everything must be kept in proper perspective.
Last edited by c2jones; 05-13-2008 at 08:41 AM.
#271
Senior Member
For you to sit here and try to call Porsche a luxury car maker is just disingenuous to say the least. You know damn well they made their name and continue to make sports cars morseo than luxury cars. Porsches could be call luxury goods, but they aren't luxury cars.
because they (GM on ZR1) scrimped out on everything else to get it to that price point, that is the point nothing more. You get what you pay for, blistering performance and cheapo everything else that isn't related to that performance.
The Mercedes S-Class just ranked #1 in JD Power's Initial Quality Survey as did the E-Class and get this.....SL. You don't know what you're talking about. You've got to get a new set of facts or better yet actually research them before posting! FYI these are the very same cars that in previous years were at the bottom of this very same survey!
Oh yeah I forgot, Ferrari uses the same shocks as the Corvette because they got them from the same supplier. WOW. Yeah the Germans are copying GM. Uh...you know that Ferrari isn't German right? Oh yeah Audi uses the same fluid shocks in the R8. WOW. Stunning.
Reliability and peformance is great, but it can be built like crap. Again your hadit of your preference as a EXCUSE.
Last edited by c2jones; 05-13-2008 at 11:59 AM.
#273
Senior Member
You have the specs on the SL65 Black Series already? Due tell. Guy carbon fiber and composite materials have been used for years before now. Mercedes has tinkered with this for a while now, the previous generation CL from 2000-2006 for one, used composites: http://www.mbusa.com/overview/2001/C...assCode=n ull This has been in use long before the ZR-1! The SL65 BS isn't "duplicating" squat from a Corvette.
If I'm not mistaken Audi and Acura did this years ago with the first generation A8 and NSX.
I didn't say that the past didn't matter, I'm saying that you're stuck in it with the continued used of outdated information.
Tell me what is your excuse for the Corvette having such flimsy seats? Do seats not factor into performance? Just dying to hear what excuse you'll come up with now! You mean to tell me that the might GM couldn't ok some better seats and plastic that don't reek or Rubbermaid material in their 50K+...100K sports car? Oh I forgot the ZR-1 will have all this plastic wrapped in leather. The GM loyalist definition of an "upagrade". Sad.
One shouldn't have to run to the aftermarket for interior work on a 100K!!!! That is beyond said (I think you mean sad) that you proffer such an option!
I'll just keep harping about how junky the Corvette is
just because the same interior supplier is used that this automatically means a Corvette and a Benz have the same interior quality. Nothing could be more ridiculous.
Yet I bet that because Ferrari and other used the same supplier that doesn't automatically mean they deliver the same peformance does it?
What does this have to do with wether (whether) or not it is high quality or not. Advanced composites and handmade engines and panels have what to do with interior and build quality? Again, more smear tactics for the discussed issue.
No one, or at least I, ever questioned the ZR-1's value regarding peformance. You brought value and reliability up because you needed something to counter the Corvette's junky build.
#274
Senior Member
a couple of you REALLY have some serious time to burn...
#275
Senior Member
Which is exactly what you tried to do here by posting half of the quote MT made on the STS-V's interior quality!!! Talk about BS artist.
Do you really think a Corvette has anything in common with a Bugatti?
Point is, this car, ZR1 has a complete package, all things considered, that is certainly worthy of the price. Everything else is pandering and posturing.
Last edited by c2jones; 05-12-2008 at 04:08 PM.