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Heat Exchanger for SL65s...

 
Old 04-07-2009, 02:21 PM
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Heat Exchanger for SL65s...

Gents,

Just wanted to pass on some info. My shop (who made the heat exchanger for my E55) is making up a heat exchanger for my SL65. They had the bumper off and took the measurements and told me there is a LOT of room for a nice big fat heat exchanger - and best of all, unlike the E55, you don't have to take out the stock unit... you can add this one in ADDITION to the stock unit. That's effectively increasing stock cooling capacity by almost 3 fold. Serious help for our cars that suffer so much from the heat.

Just passing the info along, I know there really isn't too much out there for the 65s and with the benefits I saw on the 55 platform I thought people would appreciate the info. I will be posting a build thread soon just like AMGFan that should have some pictures...

If anyone is interested in one of the heat exchangers call Al @ CPT: (708) 343-8677 - I know the only problem at the moment is that they are unsure if the 06+ have the exact same layout under the front bumper as my '05, so hopefully that won't cause any problems.

-m
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Old 04-07-2009, 02:29 PM
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Spoke with Al yesterday and he will be sending me an upgraded HE once he is done with Marcus' 65. Mine is an '06 so I will post the install with regard to fitment if there is one vs. an '05 SL65.

PS...From what Marcus and Al have told me is that it will work in conjunction with the VR825...the increased consistency of an upgraded HE and the addition of larger I/C's and better I/C pump make for a formidable setup.
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Old 04-07-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Frost View Post
Gents,

Just wanted to pass on some info. My shop (who made the heat exchanger for my E55) is making up a heat exchanger for my SL65. They had the bumper off and took the measurements and told me there is a LOT of room for a nice big fat heat exchanger - and best of all, unlike the E55, you don't have to take out the stock unit... you can add this one in ADDITION to the stock unit. That's effectively increasing stock cooling capacity by almost 3 fold. Serious help for our cars that suffer so much from the heat.

Just passing the info along, I know there really isn't too much out there for the 65s and with the benefits I saw on the 55 platform I thought people would appreciate the info. I will be posting a build thread soon just like AMGFan that should have some pictures...

If anyone is interested in one of the heat exchangers call Al @ CPT: (708) 343-8677 - I know the only problem at the moment is that they are unsure if the 06+ have the exact same layout under the front bumper as my '05, so hopefully that won't cause any problems.

-m

Do you think this would fit on my 05 CL65 as well or is the room behind the bumper different?
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Old 04-07-2009, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 1badassbenz View Post
Do you think this would fit on my 05 CL65 as well or is the room behind the bumper different?
From what I understand the CL is much more limited in terms of space behind the bumper, so I know at the very least the core for the SL wouldn't fit, if any will at all.

-m
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Old 04-08-2009, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 1badassbenz View Post
Do you think this would fit on my 05 CL65 as well or is the room behind the bumper different?
Here is what an innovative CL55 owner did:

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...exchanger.html


Marcus:

I imagine the H/E above is much smaller than the one you are having installed on your SL65 due to the smaller frontal area in the CL...as you mentioned.

Tom
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:17 AM
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I'm about 5 weeks away from a VRP825 for my Sl600. A lot of info about HE for the 55s but nothing on the SL600. Any thoughts as to my options. Plenty of companies that make any size HE with dual pass so getting the size I want will not be an issue but need to know if anyone has already done that and what did they do.
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Old 04-08-2009, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by soulsearcher View Post
I'm about 5 weeks away from a VRP825 for my Sl600. A lot of info about HE for the 55s but nothing on the SL600. Any thoughts as to my options. Plenty of companies that make any size HE with dual pass so getting the size I want will not be an issue but need to know if anyone has already done that and what did they do.
I don’t mean to hi-jack this thread, but I wonder whether anybody has given bottle neck analysis any thoughts, which would lead me to airflow first: I cant for the world of it understand how AMG could muck up the intake side as much as they did – maybe it was cost cutting as the Maybach, the 600 and the 65 all use the same air-filter box (a design you would never find in a M-power Bimer, just check the wonderful and sophisticated intake airflow in the M5! and the reason why those cars are such animals at high speeds becomes immediately obvious)
Well, surprise surprise – the 65 BS got this one fixed! and Renntech has a much better airbox, too, just insanely expensive. They want $6k

To wit, the standard intake air makes 4 x 90 degree turns to get into the turbo, Renntech makes 2 turns and the 65 BS makes zero turns!

As for the I/C cooling capacity, it would be very interesting to know what AMG did to the 65 BS – anybody ever had a chance to stick his eyeballs into the BS front end?
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CA_E55 View Post
I don’t mean to hi-jack this thread, but I wonder whether anybody has given bottle neck analysis any thoughts, which would lead me to airflow first: I cant for the world of it understand how AMG could muck up the intake side as much as they did – maybe it was cost cutting as the Maybach, the 600 and the 65 all use the same air-filter box (a design you would never find in a M-power Bimer, just check the wonderful and sophisticated intake airflow in the M5! and the reason why those cars are such animals at high speeds becomes immediately obvious)
Well, surprise surprise – the 65 BS got this one fixed! and Renntech has a much better airbox, too, just insanely expensive. They want $6k
Not a hijack at all... good to discuss these things and you make a very valid point. I think some of it may have to do with "need" - the M cars really take the potential of their engines quite far and need every last ounce of performance whereas with a 6.0L V12 and a pair of K24 turbos it's really not that hard to make 600hp

I don't think that's an excuse, but they already had to cap the torque so it wouldn't surprise me if the logic falls along these lines...

To wit, the standard intake air makes 4 x 90 degree turns to get into the turbo, Renntech makes 2 turns and the 65 BS makes zero turns!

As for the I/C cooling capacity, it would be very interesting to know what AMG did to the 65 BS – anybody ever had a chance to stick his eyeballs into the BS front end?
I've attached a picture of an uncovered SL65 Black Series engine, which obviously doesn't show the cooling system, but will give some people a visual representation of what you were referring to. I know at the very least, this car will benefit greatly from the addition of the heat exchanger I am having made... and at a very minimal cost. Heat on these cars is killer!

-m
Attached Thumbnails Heat Exchanger for SL65s...-sl65_amg_bs_motor.bmp  
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Frost View Post
Not a hijack at all... good to discuss these things and you make a very valid point. I think some of it may have to do with "need" - the M cars really take the potential of their engines quite far and need every last ounce of performance whereas with a 6.0L V12 and a pair of K24 turbos it's really not that hard to make 600hp
It is certainly true that a n/a engine is more critical for optimized airflow, but think about it this way: At full tilt of 6K RPM, and assuming a volumetric efficiency of 1, the 65 pumps 300 liters of air per second, or using a more common visualization – almost 1.5 x 55 gallon drum of air per second – there’s some serious sucking taking place for that volume! even more impressive because the piping is probably less than 2 inch dia.

Back to the original topic: A few years ago C&D did a high end sports car comparison, and from what I remember they tested the cars on a racetrack with outside temps in the 90s – the SL65 promptly shut down after a couple of laps overheating, but my interpretation was ‘overheating period’ - not just the charge cooler part. Conversely, there was a piece on Speedchannel a while back with Klaus Ludwig flogging the SL65 around the Hockenheim Ring with no such troubles, cooler ambients and a faster track, maybe?

Are you modifying for better quarter mile performance?

BTW – thanks for the BS pic!
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:16 PM
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Marcus Frost, would you by any change know the dimension of your H/E for the E55.
Thank you
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by CA_E55 View Post
It is certainly true that a n/a engine is more critical for optimized airflow, but think about it this way: At full tilt of 6K RPM, and assuming a volumetric efficiency of 1, the 65 pumps 300 liters of air per second, or using a more common visualization – almost 1.5 x 55 gallon drum of air per second – there’s some serious sucking taking place for that volume! even more impressive because the piping is probably less than 2 inch dia.

Back to the original topic: A few years ago C&D did a high end sports car comparison, and from what I remember they tested the cars on a racetrack with outside temps in the 90s – the SL65 promptly shut down after a couple of laps overheating, but my interpretation was ‘overheating period’ - not just the charge cooler part. Conversely, there was a piece on Speedchannel a while back with Klaus Ludwig flogging the SL65 around the Hockenheim Ring with no such troubles, cooler ambients and a faster track, maybe?

Are you modifying for better quarter mile performance?

BTW – thanks for the BS pic!
First I'd like to say you have a magnificent taste in cars. I had almost the identical lineup before we bought the GL320 - '05 E55, '06 SL65, and '06 S4.

To the topic - no question the airflow on the V12 is staggering... I mean even before you do any calculations you just can look at the displacement and the amount of flow that a K24 sized turbo can generate and you know it's monumental - my point was that flow doesn't have to be terribly efficient in this case because of those factors to yield BIG HP... whereas with the M5 V10 you need every ounce of efficiency and revs to stay at or above that 100hp/liter threshold.

The tests you mention are interesting. I think some of the best guidance we can learn from is what AMG did to improve on the SL65 to turn it into the black series. Obviously the black series is made for track use and obviously AMG knows very well what shortcomings the non-BS 65s had. We can see that the intake is totally different as you mentioned, there's no SBC, and we have yet to see what the heat exchanger setup looks like.

The reason for upgrading the heat exchanger is because I know from driving, being on the dyno, reading the forums, and listening to people smarter than me that IAT on this car simply goes through the roof with the stock configuration. This isn't limited to when drag racing, this also happens when you are just doing some highway jaunts back-to-back. 55 cars suffer greatly as well and I saw what a great job replacing the factory unit with a larger piece did to my 55, and I expect even better results with the 65 given that the new core ADDS TO and does not REPLACE the factory unit and the biturbos suffer even more due to high IATs and heat soak than the kompressors.

The price for the heat exchanger from CPT also contributed to it being basically a no-brainer.

-m
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by shardul View Post
Marcus Frost, would you by any change know the dimension of your H/E for the E55.
Thank you
I do not off hand, sorry. It was made to CPT spec, and fits like a glove...

-m
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Frost View Post
I do not off hand, sorry. It was made to CPT spec, and fits like a glove...

-m

1. Do u have the dimensions of the HE?

2. Is this a dual pass?

thx,
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by soulsearcher View Post
1. Do u have the dimensions of the HE?

2. Is this a dual pass?

thx,
I'm not sure which one you are referring to, but no, I don't have the dimensions off hand. CPT measured the space when the bumper was taken off. You are free to call and ask them. They are big, that much is for sure...

The units for both the 55 and 65 are dual pass.

-m
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:23 PM
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Sounds like another great mod!

Originally Posted by Marcus Frost View Post
First I'd like to say you have a magnificent taste in cars. I had almost the identical lineup before we bought the GL320 - '05 E55, '06 SL65, and '06 S4.

To the topic - no question the airflow on the V12 is staggering... I mean even before you do any calculations you just can look at the displacement and the amount of flow that a K24 sized turbo can generate and you know it's monumental - my point was that flow doesn't have to be terribly efficient in this case because of those factors to yield BIG HP... whereas with the M5 V10 you need every ounce of efficiency and revs to stay at or above that 100hp/liter threshold.

The tests you mention are interesting. I think some of the best guidance we can learn from is what AMG did to improve on the SL65 to turn it into the black series. Obviously the black series is made for track use and obviously AMG knows very well what shortcomings the non-BS 65s had. We can see that the intake is totally different as you mentioned, there's no SBC, and we have yet to see what the heat exchanger setup looks like.

The reason for upgrading the heat exchanger is because I know from driving, being on the dyno, reading the forums, and listening to people smarter than me that IAT on this car simply goes through the roof with the stock configuration. This isn't limited to when drag racing, this also happens when you are just doing some highway jaunts back-to-back. 55 cars suffer greatly as well and I saw what a great job replacing the factory unit with a larger piece did to my 55, and I expect even better results with the 65 given that the new core ADDS TO and does not REPLACE the factory unit and the biturbos suffer even more due to high IATs and heat soak than the kompressors.

The price for the heat exchanger from CPT also contributed to it being basically a no-brainer.

-m
How much $$ are we talking about? Thank you
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Thericker View Post
How much $$ are we talking about? Thank you
You'd have to call CPT for an exact price... but I believe it's under $700. A total steal for what you get.

-m
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Frost View Post
You'd have to call CPT for an exact price... but I believe it's under $700. A total steal for what you get.

-m
Excellent! thank you...Please post pix w/install I'm very interested in purchasing this HE.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:16 PM
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Yes same here very interested in the HE!
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:39 PM
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Just talked to Al at CPT; nice guy. He's just doing this as a one off for the SL65 for Marcus and a fcouple of others if needed; he doesn't have and H/E kit for an sl55...unless he has the car there and fabbed a custom one for it.
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunir View Post
Just talked to Al at CPT; nice guy. He's just doing this as a one off for the SL65 for Marcus and a fcouple of others if needed; he doesn't have and H/E kit for an sl55...unless he has the car there and fabbed a custom one for it.
Al/CPT really isn't a parts dealer aside from the product lines they carry for the various tuners (Kleemann, Renntech, VRP, etc). He doesn't know how the 55 on the SL would differ from the 65 so I'm sure he's not willing to just try and release some universal R230 kit and hope it fits on all the cars. He's made one for me and for AMGfan, and that's because our cars are very similar, however this isn't going to be a part that he will have in stock or sell on a regular basis.

Sorry if there was any confusion.

-m
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