James F. Cannon

I received via e-mail the dyno results from my latest mods and posted a copy at this link: "www.msnusers.com/ourmercedes" and go to JimCan's album.
The max power is 462.39 at the wheels and the max torque is 433.96 at the wheels. The horsepower tops 450 at around 5400 RPM and stays above 450 to 6300 RPM. The torque reaches 425 at 4200 and stays above 425 to 5700 RPM.
I welcome any comments, insights or comparisons for the enlightenment of all.

Marcus Frost

Excellent #s James. Amazing what that beast is doing, although it's not making that much more power than a W211. Maybe 40rwhp more? However, trap speed is much more indicative of an equal playing field. I have yet to see any W211 break the 120mph barrier at the drag strip (NOT ON A G-TECH) which means that your car is faster than any of the 211s I've seen.

For reference, my stock '02 W210 made 296rwhp and 324rwtq.

-m

Marky

Did you ever had your car dynoed before your latest mods? How much was the max power and torque then?

James F. Cannon

My car originally dynoed 305.5 rwhp and 330.5 rwt with the same wheel and tire configuration and K&N filters.
After the first round of mods it dynoed 440.7 rwhp and 437.2 rwt running through the stock muffler and pipes.
Due to the date of this last dyno I believe it was done after the cam installation but before the exhaust mods. I rushed them to get the car out so I could attend the Atlanta GTG at Silver Dollar Raceway on my way home. So they may not have had a chance to do a final dyno. I will verify this next week.

Thanks Marcus, without the K&N filters my car would have dynoed very similar numbers to yours I'm sure.

my401

With all records checked so far. CANNON's E is the FASTEST.
(and while driving it, I have been stopped by State Police maybe thinking the same thing)

The next question: How fa$t do you want to $pend?

BlownV8

The torque seems kind of low. An exhaust system with headers and better flow should move those tq numbers a bit higher. Excellent peak hp though.

stephens

James
Your HP number are excellent, but you have nearly 100ftlb of torque less with 20-30hp more than a Renntech kitted W211.
At 4000rpm you are down around 70rwhp and 100ftlb from my car and comparatively* peak power is about the same.
Have you considered increasing boost pressure?
On Renntech's dyno you I would be looking for 500rwhp with the mods you have done.

This is a guesstimate based on comparisons of previous cars run on Renntechs dyno with known power ouputs used to create a baseline to compare with the dyno I use.

Marcus Frost

I think everyone is focusing too much on his #s - fact is the car runs 120mph at the track and would run away from any renntech'd W211 by a significant margin. Yes, dyno #s are nice and all - but the drag strip is the equalizer. Put James's car next to any w211 from a dead dig, 20mph, 40mph, and run them side by side - his car will pull away over and over.

-m

stephens

Not even close to being true.
A standard W211 is going to pull away from James until he hits about 5K RPM where he has additional power. His top end increase has come at the expense of a big bottom end hit. On a drag strip this is fine, but not on the streets and not in roll ons.

James F. Cannon

Once again I will say I think the dyno numbers were post cam change and pre exhaust modification. I will verify next week. I know I can not get close to full throttle off the line and it feels stronger on the bottom and midrange. Hopefully I will go back to the track next week with G-force drag radials, if they will let me run again! Thanks guys for all the input.

Marcus Frost

Stephens,

I have raced or been involved in so many roll ons between so many cars it's not even funny. Dyno #s are great but the trap speed is almost always the true indicator of who is going faster. Trap speed is how fast a car is going over the last 66 feet in the 1/4 mile. If one's average is 120mph, and one is 117mph, obviously the one going 120mph is going faster at the end of the 1/4 mile, period. Trap speed takes into account weight and power and puts cars on a level playing field.

I've had heads/cam LS1s go against boosted 4 cylinders who make no where near the torque of the LS1, but it trapped considerably higher in the 1/4 mile (5mph). From a punch the LS1 gets the jump but it's only a matter of time before the 4 banger catches up and will pass him.

This isn't about who's going to get the jump, it's not who's going to win from 40-60mph, but a real race. A real race that lasts more than 2 seconds will see the lower trapping car get walked on over and over again in almost every case.

-m

stephens

Marcus
You are missing the point here. There is no doubt James is pulling great numbers, but 120mph trap speeds with his 3.06 as opposed to 2.65 to 1 rear gearing is to be expected.

My point is that he has a slight increase in peak horsepower over a Renntech kitted W211, so maybe he should look at increasing boost. From memory, most SL55/E55's that I have seen on the Renntech dyno put out 430-440 rwhp and significantly more torque.

Power and performance are dictated by area under the curve and the time spent there based on gear ratio's. On that measure James's car has some great top end gains, but unless his car is spinning over 4500rpm, he is at a power disadvantage.
It is important to be able to balance theory as well as real world experience.

The world is not about 1/4 mile times and trap speeds.
If that were the case we'd be running slicks and 3.91 rear ends.

James has asked for our thoughts and rather than the usuall ooh aah response I am trying to give some useful feedback and suggestions.
I'd be interested to know if the dyno was pre or post exhaust upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised to find it was the former.

Marcus Frost

stephens,

I think you are missing my point. A car with a 4.10 gears over a 2.65 will accelerate faster from low speeds but over a race from a rollon, though a couple of gears, the 2.65 gear'd car that traps higher will pull away.

The world is not about 1/4 mile times (ETs) as I never mentioned ETs in any of my posts. I really don't care much for ETs, I am talking about trap speeds. Regardless of what you *think* - I *know* that trap speeds mean a LOT more than dyno #s. I've wagered money on that fact many times and it's almost NEVER let me down (and when it has, it usually was due to an outside factor). I know drag racing isn't big in Austrailia so this information may be new to you, but I can assure you try it sometime and you will start to realize how it does, in fact, hold water in almost every case.

-m

James F. Cannon

Hey guys, I am enjoying the debate but I need to clarify a couple of things. I am running the stock open differential, ratio is 2.82:1, and I know the W210 is about 400 lbs. lighter than the W211. I also know that Hartmut believes the later produced W211 E55's are making more power than the earlier units. Even so, my weight advantage and the fact I can run 285's on the rear gives me an advantage on the street and strip. I have seen W211 owners post sub 12 second times but I have some doubts about the credibility as no real evidence has been presented. I will soon have video posted of my 11.975 @ 121.56 MPH from two different angles and if the sound quality transfers well you may get a better idea about the real torque off the line.
Like I said before, the dyno may have been done after the cam change and may even have been with some of the exhaust system off.
If the weather holds up I will be at the track Wednesday with G-force drag radials and try to launch full throttle to see what happens!

stephens

James
Good info, for some reason I thought you had changed the diff ratio from the std 2.83.
Are you getting a final dyno reading done soon?

James F. Cannon

Thanks Stephens,
I will find out this week if my premise is correct. I rushed them to get the car out so I may have to go back in May or June to get a final dyno. I'll be going back to possibly change some shift points in the transmission control module.
On another topic my brother's Cayenne ran a 13.627 ET @ 101.48 MPH bone stock with the big spare tire and rack hanging on the back! That's as quick as some CLK55's I have seen!
How about your Gallardo?

stephens

The Gallardo is going to have to wait, we had drizzle on Friday and I want to get some times on the E55 first, now that everything is fixed. I also want to see how the Ferrari 550 goes and I have to get the race bike prepared for the next round of the Aust Superbike Championships in a fortnight.
Being a rev head is hard work!

Marcus Frost

James,

I think in light of this debate a matchup should be in order. I wonder if there are any W211s in your area that you could do some roll ons against? I have a few Supra buddies down in LA that I'm sure would also be delighted to run just for fun. Some are stock twin'd cars that you should easily run away from, others are a bit more advanced in upgrades and will probably run away from you - but all in good fun. Let me know if you'd be interested in getting in touch with them. I'd love to see a good W210 vs Supra race

What's up next as far as upgrades go? It seems you pretty much have the car all sorted out - maybe upping the boost a bit, or is that pushing your luck?

Best of luck at the track,

Marcus

James F. Cannon

The only things I am considering doing now are going to lighter wheels (Carlssons are heavy, so are original AMG's) and changing shift points in the transmission control. I considered going to the next higher gear ratio but since they are on my case at the track about a roll bar it doesn't seem like a good idea. I will try to get this issue resolved this week with the track owner. I was told by the tech inspector that even if I rented the track personally for time trials I would not be allowed to run under 12 flat without a roll bar!! Oh well. We (my401, myself and others) have the road course reserved for Monday afternoon and while there I will plead my case (money talks!) to be allowed to run my car as quick as it will go! The NHRA needs to join the 21st century!
As far as grudge matches, I would enjoy it if we can find a place where I can run without the roll bar issue (and I don't mean the street!) So Marcus, you can PM me with any contacts and maybe we can get something together with your Supra buddies.

Stephens, good luck with the bike and be careful (no rollbars or airbags!!) It sounds like you are working too hard at having fun!

Finnish C32

James,

BenzoAMGpower

sorry to go OT but...

Marcus,

I see your from Chicago... have you ever ran across a guy by the name of Marko D. with a white supra?

4sfed4

I believe you will be succcessful in your plea.

As I understand it, both NHRA and IHRA both now only require roll bars for 11.49 and under!

James F. Cannon

4sfed4
Well I went to the NHRA web site last night and the rules still state a roll bar is needed by any car running 11.99 and under. I do believe IHRA rules may be 11.49 and under but I was unable to verify this. I will call an IHRA track when I get the chance. I believe there is one in Eunice, La. which is a 2-2.5 hr. drive.

4sfed4

Yes...IHRA is for sure 11.49.

When I was at the track last Friday, I was told that NHRA is now also 11.49 and it was a very recent change.

I will contact a buddy of mine who runs in an NHRA class and verify this info with him.

James F. Cannon

4sfed4
Thanks, it sure would be good to verify if the NHRA changed the rule. If you do verify this, please let me know where I can get same verification to present to the tech guy at the track. That would resolve the issue as far as I am concerned.
Thanks again!