SoulBladeZA

Erm, I might be mistaken, but I did say it was false. I lied when I typed that post long ago. These other cars are basically mine, they are fully paid for and insured in my father's name. I will continue to read the board as I always have, just with less interaction. You can call me what you want Peter, the playground-syndrome has found a very capable host in you.

You know what the sad thing is? I'm supposed to be the immature one, yet I have never insulted you or anyone else on this board, or any board for that matter. You seem to do so on an hourly basis.

BMWEATR

We Ain't Got Noth'n Else To Do. Sorry

Sounds like his tail is between his legs Pete!

E55_POWER

Of course you agree with Gustav, you drive the same freakin brand and model.

The M5, I agree with you, will probably be faster than the E55 and I'm looking forward to getting my M5 but even I'm a realistic person...beating a Viper and a Lambo with 4 people yet weighing more than the 2 cars....PU-LEEZ. You know, the write up was great till that came up.

As I stated, Gustav is a very informative guy but it is always PRO BMW which to me, he's not a credible critic to me.

04E55 AMG

Very well said young man Some folks think they can defy the the "Laws Of Physics". Haven taken over 3 years in college, I am sure it is still not possible.

Alex, maybe BMW has figured away to do it

hilsman

Concerning statements made bt M&M, Eric, et al:

(1)No one has adequately explained the surreal times of Gustav's testing...even his timer stands by the results at my last read....0-200l in 12.5 (which includes a .3 sec deduction for his crew )is flying....so one of several assumptions can be drawn(a)Gustav and friends are superhuman drivers able to produce results no one else on the planet can(b) his timer was in error...big error I might add...which he adamently denies..last I read(c)BMW has markedly increased the performance of all M-5's to this level but failed to provide the press corps with the newer model for their introduction(most unlikely)(d) the car was a ringer....we are free to chose which of these options might be correct but as for me, I'll take (d)....

(2)Regarding the SL-55 to M-5 run reported on the BMW site...well this is a bit more interesting...so let's examine the data....supposedly side by side at 110-270k or roughly 70-165 mph...I will assume an euro SL can go this fast without hitting the limiter of course it couldn't in US. But let's believe the report. Our hapless SL driver was in manual mode at seventy or so...through the amazing chance of just happening to have ongoing communication they start together. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the bias of this test...the M-5's gearing plus the point in the gear range of the SL completely give the advantage to the M-5....this is as I would expect. But look at the alleged end results from this gearing mismatch....6-10 car lengths...now I don't know about you but judging car lengths at 170 mph so closely is quite a feat in itself..but let's once more give the benefit of the doubt to the reporter....let's split it at 8 carlengths at 167mph....which is about 250 ft/sec...assuming a car is about 18 ft long were talking at nearly 170 mph less than .4 secs.....that isn't much considering all the advantage of gearing in this scenerio would go to the BMW...at this point the disadvantage of weight and drag of the SL compared to E-55 would have probably shown results of several tenths of a secs improvementif M-5 was racing E-55(and I didn't even factor heat sink from S/C remember they ran 3 or 4 times in a row)....one can then assume at the point where every advantage goes to the M-5 the E-55 would lose by about .2 secs...boy there's quite an embarassment as Gustav would say...a measly .2 secs for how many years of M design and research to outdistance AMG..I really think they would have done better than that .....and this is a set up with all advantage going to M-5

(c) Assuming Gustav and crew are superhuman drivers then let's look at the 1/4 mile..even with a correction of .3 of a sec for his portly load the M-5 still only would manage a bit above 12 secs...now Gustav states he doesn't believe the times are accurate...then it would only get worse...12.3 or so(which is exactly where I think it will land once in the american mags)...several board members here with completelty stock E-55's have been in the 11's...so once again...BMW has taken how many years to equal or at best marginally surpass on a case to case basis the E-55's straight line performance?

Come on guys the M-5 is a great car and will undoubtably run circles around the E-55 in the mountains...but geez I don't have any mountains...but I've got plently of straight delta highway.....ehhhh haaaaaa. The stock M-5 will never embarass the E-55's 1/4 m. times period...and for little trouble the E cars are capable of SOOOO much more HP than the M will ever be

And then there will be the biturbo E63....poor, poor BMW......Gray

M5KILLR

why is it i get this so easily?!?!?!?! oh thats right, im a flamer and this is all bs (can we please make a j/oXX smiley)

M&M

1stly, I agree with you that the M5 will not "embarass" the E55 over the 1/4. It's quite hard to "embarass" another fast car. My definition of embarass is when you look in the rear view mirror when you cross the line & the guy is way back.

But the M5 WILL be faster. maybe only 0.2-0.3 faster but it will trap 3-4mph more stock for stock. Don't take my word for it, you will see for yourself in time. Whateverthe best time for a stock E55 is, be it 12.0 or whatever, the best time for a stock M5 will be 0.2 faster. That's quite simple to see as that's what the Euro mags got (in fact they got the M5 0.4 faster on the 1/4 but I'll give you some slack). There is no reason why the margin shouldn't remain once the same tests are done in the US. Euro mags get bad times compared to US owners but the mags use dusty airfields, full tank of pump fuel, stock tyre pressures & don't cool the engine.

Also they use V-box or other GPS timing equimpent that starts timing as soon as the car moves. At a drag strip the ET timing starts when you unbreak the timing beam. So with the roll-out factor, BOTH cars will get faster at a grippy strip with loads of rubber & VHT, rear tyre pressures lowered & fronts pumped up, icing the manifold, running on empty fuel tank, etc.

You cannont compare what a US owner of an E55 gets to what a Euro mag publishes. Surely you guys are intelligent enough to understand that. When Auto CAr & Sport Auto did shoot-outs, they got 12.8-12.9 for the E55. Do you see now why they got such bad numbers? The M5 got 12.4 on the same day, same driver, same fuel, same dusty airfield. In fact the said the traction was so bad on the airfield that they didn't use launch control but left-foot braked to get 12.4. The point is the M5 was faster at that strip & trapped 5mph higher as well. So the margin should remain when transferring onto a US strip. I would actually say the M5 would gain more on a grippy surface that the E55, as with SMG you can use a higher launch RPM & SMG modulates the clutch to take advantage of better traction surfaces. But just to give you the benefit of the doubt, I will say the gap will remain constant.

NExt point is that I myself am skeptical of the numbers in Gustav's test. For sure the car is not a ringer as there is nothing I can think of that one can do to an M5 that would make it faster on pump fuel without revving higher & being visible & audible. But I believe the testing equipment is not 100% accurate. The accelerometer can me misleading if a car dives & squats a lot. I believe the operator is an expert & calibrated it to account for thus, but there may still be a small margin for error.

The fastest M5 test to date was by Autobiild is 0-100mph in 8.9 & 0-124mph in 13.5. However the test car had 2000 miles on the odo. The E55 0-100 number by the same mag is over a second off that, but they weren't tested on the same day.

100% if the evidence to date shows that the M5 is faster, especially after 60mph. IT won't "embarass" an E55 but it will be significantly faster. Why that is so hard to accept is beyond me. When the current E55 was released & proved to be much faster than the E39 M5, everyone accepted is as progress. I'm not saying one car is better or worse than the other. Just the M5 will be faster in every performance category.

LS6V

My .02

I'm an outsider, I don't have an M5 on order nor do I own an E55 [ '04 CTS-V ] but my parents have owned several high end Benz's and BMW's. Being a younger more aggressive driver, I like to push my car through the turns, row the gears, and race an ocassional M3 or SL55 ( I knew I'd lose but it was fun ). If I had the money I'd probably get the new M5, even though it doesn't look half as good as the E55.... Yet, that's the strange thing about the crap that's flying between M and AMG owners. You guys can buy either car, and each one offers clear benefits over the other.

The E55 was tuned to be the ultimate day to day car, with tons of torque down low, and monster power in the mid RPM range. The ride is 1st class and the transmission makes silky smooth shifts all day long.

The M5 is a car that needs to be pushed. Winding it up to 8,000 + RPM's and listening to it's awesome exhaust note is the polar opposite to what the E is about ( the E does have a sweet V8 sound ). The SMG III, while better than previous iterations, wont match the E's silky smooth traditional automatic transmission. I would also suspect that the ride quality will be firmer than the E's as well.

Erik

LOL so you agree with anyone driving a Benz do you. FYI I do not agree with Gustav all the time, but I do both like him and respect him.



Please read.....
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...4&postcount=74
Gustav wrote and I quote..
.............
"It is fair to say it is even to Gallardo, it depends whoever gets the jump. But there is a fair chanse that above 240 km/h the M5 will pass the Galalrdo and esp Viper. The M5 was clearly faster over 180 km/h than the Viper.

M5 beast the E55 AMG with 4 people in the M5 "
.................


He did NOT say it beat the Gallardo with 4 persons, so I guess you missunderstood him and since you belived his post until you thought he claimed that the M5 beat the Lambo and Viper with 4 persones in it I guess you belive the rest.

A honest mistake

Fine then we can agree ..



Thats Ok.


Regarding some of the numbers achieved on that day, me to have a feeling they are a bit optimistic.
But that does not change the outcome of all the different real life comparrisons......

And did you BTW se the fist little video presented where they drove the new M5 vs the old E39 M5, the difference is so huge its funny. It was taken in the dark and the quality is not to much but you clearly see the difference.....

hilsman

M&M.

Much of what you say I agree with completely....the higher number test results certainly in part reflect euro test methods ...I do believe the M-5 will post slighty higher mph in the quarter...however, on any given day I believe et's will be a toss up with the scientific advantage going towards the M-5 lighter weight and 7 speed trans....is 1-2 tenths of a second much progress over a car that's really more a luxurious cruiser as compared to mountain carver after so much time of M /// development.

And let's remember the obvious ...that 2 tenths(I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) can be erased for very little money and maintain complete stock reliability....this will never be the case with the new M-5. And for less than $5000 the E-55 COULD be tuned to near similar cornering speeds but these are really cars with two completely different personalities.

The E is designed for someone who wants a luxury cruiser not a rice bike with four doors.....the M-5 has always had that market and in my opinion deserves it.....but its superiority as THE lux cruiser is unearned...and the bragging rights to straight line accel. is still to be settled...stock for stock. Mod for mod and the advantage swings heavily towards the E....

juicee63

Last night I was reading the December 04 issue of R&T. The review of the M5 was nice but what jumped out at me was 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Hardly "blistering". 0-60 4.5, at last check I was doing 4.2 and 13 second mile. I have never done one but times posted here seem to range from low 13's all the way down to mid 11's. I dont believe the hype, I Love my TORQUE, and Muscle car type feel with fancy suit type looks...

Erik

So ? , the times there is the factory claim.
BMW always give conservative numbers, in Dec no one had driven the car.

Several later tests prof much better results.

juicee63

Point is the two cars will always be "close" the reports of the M5 oblitterating,killing,embarrassing, the E55 and outrunning Lambo's is unfounded. The first year for the new M class will be a difficult one.. I owned the revolutionary 7 series for 6 months and it was in the shop 50% of the time. New engine, new transmission, the key here is the car is unproven and untested.

Belmondo

There are 2 or 3 delivered to customers M5's in Sweden? None of htem showed up at this so called "test" by a dude who is in charge of M5board and who's income depends on BMW sponsorship . At least two e55 showed up to run against BMW rigged "press car". No e55 owner showed up here to admit/tell hteir story.
Instead we have you, who have not been there, as I undestand, arguing/pushing upon every one here some bogus reasoning.
I dont have to agree with you or anybody if I have my doubts, do you undestand that?
You can post what your thoughts are and each of us will make his own conclusions. That is how it works dude.


M5 with 4 people in it killing E55 by many car length is SLR performance. Many of us have seen runs of e55 vesrsus SLR here not long ago. I do NOT believe M5 with 4 people in it can match SLR. End of story. THere ar e who agree with you and there are those that dont and so far you dont have anything to change their/my mind.

Go get some yourself instead of retelling someone elses.


Jean-Paul

Erik

Well, those word are used often enough here on the MB board as well, allthough I personally take that kind of description in a race with a grain of salt. I have seen those words used in anything from a 1/2 car lenght win to several buslengths, so I guess they dont really tell anything...... Its mostly used to spice up the story a bit.


BUT please, nobody have said it was outrunning the Lambo. BUT the fact is the M5 is in fact less than half a second slower from 100 kph to 200 kph. This indicated they will be very close from 100 kph.
http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=68&Car2=81

At some point the M5 will pass due to higher topspeed, but I have no clue at what speed that will be.

Erik

LOL, and that has what to do with this ???

I cant belive you wrote that..... Probably the most pointless comment I have seen, and that says a lot...................

as you understand,....... meaning what ?

Do some reading before you make any conclusion, thats normaly a good idea.

Please explain where I have made bogus reasoning.

Offcourse it can not.

OK LISTEN, NO ONE HAVE EVER SAID IT BEAT THE E55 WITH MANY CARLENGTS WITH 4 PERSONS IN IT.
THAT WAS WITH 1 DRIVER IN EACH.
BUT.... HE SAID IT MANAGED TO BEAT THE E55, EVEN WITH 4 PERSONS IN THE CAR, IT WAS NOT SAID BY HOW MUCH.

IF SOME OF YOU GUYS TOOK YOU TIME TO READ, MOST OF THESE STUPIDITY COULD HAVE AVOIDED.



Agree with me LOL, I guess you mean "belive" dont you......

You can either " belive" all of this is made up, the test are bogus, the M5 is tuned or what ever, or you can belive it is true.......

You could say that the M5 is uggly, then I could say that I do not " Agree" with you....

See the difference LOL..

Belmondo

Erik , perhaps you should convince people on M5board that whatever is written can be trusted first , there are guys onM5 board with the posts like :

bernhtp
Senior Member (>500)

Join Date: May 2001
Location: The Woodlands, TX USA
Posts: 840
View My Car!

Re: Confirmed! m5board.com roadtest of Interlagosblue M5 in April. Post your opinions!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRichmond
"0-100 mph _ 8.656 s"??? Please clarify if this, indeed, was a standing start to 100 mph. If so, the time is simply phenomenal and significantly below not only the E55 (the lowest any magazine got, I believe, was 9.3 sec. and often measured close to 10 sec.), but what the media has reported so far about the E60 M5. Please confirm the nature of this test and let us know how it was measured.


All of the performance figures were incredible. They are either 1) wrong 2) applicable to only an extremely unusual M5 or 3) the production M5 is faster than the pre-production (press) models and better than anyone thought. I'm hoping for #3 but skeptical.

Tom
__________________
2002 M3 Convertible
2004 745Li
ex-2000, 2001 M5s, 545 and other Ms
Last edited by bernhtp : Yesterday at 04:29.




Why dont try to convince him/them first before coming here??
I'm and many others have doubts and you have nothing now to change that.


The ohter one ha s a whole theory:

Theory:

What if BMW has learned from the Ford performance cars to officially underrate the engines slightly, such that actual output on average is a bit more than stated, just to keep (in particular US) customers happy?

Then, if we also happened to have a car with an engine from the upper part of the bell curve, there could very well be a few percent extra power.

Also this is a national press demo car. I´d bet BMW select the better engines for those.

David



Just from the last fkn "theory" and the FACT that its a "national press car" is it impossible for you to imagine that production M5 car may not be anywhere close to that? Didn't you read that the production of M5 was stoped again? THere are NO production cars to compaire to. The few in Sweden are stil going through break in period and the new M5 owner said that E55 was very fast but he could not say what will happen to M5 because he did not push it yet. That is what I will wait for, Erik ----If that owner of production M5 will say in a week that he had run in with E55 and he won , I will compleetly believe him and htere will be no post from me disputing him. But what you have, Erik is "theory", nothing else
Perheps if you read yourself everything and made BMW guys believe it before coming with this here all this crap and you would not be here at all.

Jean-Paul

SoulBladeZA

Well one owner of a production M5 has already stated that he beat an SL 55 on a rolling start, yet no one here believed him. Ironic your post then, don't you think?

enzom

I am not sure that nobody believed him. The E55 is not the SL55.

Look - when real M5 owners take their production cars to the strip and post their personal results, we will have valid comparisons to make. In all of this to and fro I am at a loss to understand why there is not a single M5 owner that has a timeslip to post. Not a one. How can that be? What is the break-in period, 5,000 kms???

I've yet to see a documented 12.0, 12.1 or 12.2 e.t and 117 plus mph trap speed from an owner with a production M5 purchased from the dealer. I bet it is quite possible, but from my perspective, and from the perspective of many E55 owners (both the rude and the friendly), we will believe its speed when we have something other than a magazine or a slightly suspect press car "test" by which to judge performance.

For ME and I suspect several other E55 drivers on this board, we are just waiting for proof of the M5's speed. It is probably just a matter of time. If people want to criticize me and those like me that aren't simply accepting magazine tests from Europe, or the results of Gustav's public relations comparison (which even members of the M5 forum have rightfully questioned), then so be it.

I've said it before, I won't lose any sleep if (probably more like "when") the M5's being driven by real owners at strips or on our highways are running quicker and faster than our E55's. They just need to prove it.

SoulBladeZA

Enzom thank you for a well thought out and mature post. I can understand a single test not proving the M5 king just yet. As I have said before, I don't know exactly how well the SL 55 stacks up to the E55, but I'm sure there cannot be too big of a gap.

Give the okes who just received their cars a break, I'm sure they will go to the strip soon and then we will be able to compare apples to apples. The point remains, in the test Gustav did, with an uprated car or not, on that day the M5 was faster. Once the videos are up, I'm sure no one will dispute it. All we need now is a few other videos and hopefully all the name-calling will stop. Well, some of it atleast. Can't wait for the next generation of M and AMG cars

Mardeth

enzom, theres no timeslip because 1. like you said the the break-in period of 5000km and 2. because europeans rarely take their cars to a drag strip. There arent many around.

But theres one time besides the magazine times:
1/4 mile _ 12.302 s _ at 121.4 mph (195.2 km/h)
which was recorded at the event by "DavidS", with 3 people in the car on a pretty dusty airfield. So it might get better...

Erik

Thats 100% true. Europeans that buy this kind of car have absoloutly zero interesst in the 1/4 race. Thoose are bought for high speed driving on the Autobahn or an occational track event.
The 1/4 thing is an US kind of event, with history back from the old days where that was the most popular raceing in the US.
In Norway BTW we have only 2 "official" 1/4 event that are open to public.

Also those in Sweden that have been lucky enough to get a delivery has just gotten the car and the break in periode is probably not yet finnished. The M5 car that took out the SL55 is a owners car but that car is also very fresh and maybe just past the breakin periode.
And I guess it no secret that cars like this gets stronger after a while. I guesss that is the case for AMG`s to.



Where did you get that ?

Is that measured with real equipment or is it with some kind of G-tech thing?

Erik

I agree, 8,656 seem to be to fast. As far as I know this is measured with some kind electronical equipent measuring the G-force. It is NOT used a "fith" wheel or PRO equipment.

So personaly I belive more the results from German magasins that got low 9 sec. give or take a few.

The best I could find during a short search was the 9,2 of Sport Auto. Still fast as hell. Its only 1 that has been in the upper part of 9 sec. That was the first test ever made on an very early "test" car.
All later test have been significantly better.
Same mag, same place, same driver but different day gave the E55 9,8 for the same sprint, the E55 estate used mid 10 sec.

Given the fact that they are not tested on the same day and I do not know the temp, humidity and track condition it is impossible to draw any 100% conluction other that to say that the M5 is the faster of the 2. And that is a fact that I feel most actually agree on.

Than we can dicuss by how much until our faces turn blue, if that gives us any pleasure.

caliboy

OH YEAH WELL ALL YOU JUST WAIT TILL i GET MY NE C75 AMG WITH 600 HP THEN WE WILL SEE WHO IS TALKING SH YYYYY IIIIIIT ! YOU WATCH . lol

Erik

I agree, 8,656 seem to be to fast. As far as I know this is measured with some kind electronical equipent measuring the G-force. It is NOT used a "fith" wheel or PRO equipment.

So personaly I belive more the results from German magasins that got low 9 sec. give or take a few.

The best I could find during a short search was the 9,2 of Sport Auto. Still fast as hell. Its only 1 that has been in the upper part of 9 sec. That was the first test ever made on an very early "test" car.
All later test have been significantly better.
Same mag, same place, same driver but different day gave the E55 9,8 for the same sprint, the E55 estate used mid 10 sec.

Given the fact that they are not tested on the same day and I do not know the temp, humidity and track condition it is impossible to draw any 100% conluction other that to say that the M5 is the faster of the 2. And that is a fact that I feel most actually agree on.

Than we can dicuss by how much until our faces turn blue, if that gives us any pleasure.