xscream

I guess most people agree to that even if the M5 is a faster than a stock E55 in straights, and especially in the corners. The M5 wont rival the E55 too much since E55 drivers aren't looking for a car that sounds "bang" evertime it shifts while acceleration at max. Also, the M5 is much sportier, and hasn't keept the comfort features that AMG provide.

To drive the M5 faster than the E55, you have to drive it to its limits, a lot of hard shifts ect. While the E55 is almost as fast but you can barly feel the shifts.
This new Alpina is as fast as the M5, but has the comfort of the E55.

But now Alpina is realising their B5, with a rebuilt supercharged version of the engine from the 545. 492hp and 516lbft. The car is built for comfort, so there are luxury seats etc, and also the transmission is built to be fast but gentle Offcourse it comes with all the factory warranty ect just like any other BMW. This car is availible as both sedan and touring just like the E55.

0-60 in 4.6,
0-100 in 9.5
0-125 in 14.9 (E55 has 16.1 stock right/wrong?)

This car also has the advantage that it can be modded easily compared to the M5.

What do you think, does this car put up some competition against the E55, its more in the same class compared to the new M5.

I think that this car might steal some AMG buyes, especially since Mercedes have had some many quality issues lately. Exept for the front lip I think the car looks pretty good.

BenzoBoi

Not too shabby!~!

vraa

It's okay, but it's not like an E55 competitor. It's like an E500 with a Kleemann on it or sorts.

xscream

Not really, Alpina was like Brabus for Mercedes, exept that it was Alpina who built the sporty bmw's and BMW M that built the luxury fast ones.
BMW has bought Alpina, and converted it to a luxury concept, since they made BMW M cars sportier.
So its a Brabus more than a Mercedes with kleemann.

Its sold as a BMW, comes with full BMW warranty, its developed together with bmw, and acctually Bmw uses parts developed from the alpinas in other cars (for example, this car has a stronger rear axle because of the torque, which will be used in future diesel bmws).

vraa

Alpina is better than Brabus... But that's a moot point.

It's still not a 'virgin' BMW in my eyes. You get an E55, and it's Mercedes through and through. You get the M5, it's a BMW through and through. You get the Alpina, and, yeah, it's a BMW, but it's an Alpina BMW.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just another point. Would I get one? Absolutley, the wagon please. Would my dad? Not in a million years, because it's 'aftermarket'.

xscream

I understand your point, I think that there are even more ppl in the US than in EU that regard Alpina as aftermarket. Hope that this changes so there will be more alpinas och brabus around

Acctually, Ive even heard ppl that think AMG isnt real mercedes.

medici78

Alpina is no more aftermarket than AMG. The only real difference is that AMG is owned by M-B, and Alpina is 'only' directly contracted by BMW.

AMGfan

I never got used to the Alpina rims, though. Other than that piddly complaint, the Alpina package is nice...What does all that customization cost over the regular 5 series?

KompressorKev

i have incredible respect for Alpina and their quality craftsmanship. the B5 is a very fast car and i believe Alpina underrates them. according to magazines, it appears faster than e60 m5, though we all know how subjective magazines may be. the Alpina B5 is more similar to the E55 in technical character than the E60 M5, but not in marketing or status. i think it would be a great race. yes i agree Alpina is kinda like Brabus, though i admit i like Alpina a little more even if i am gonna mod my car Brabus pieces. that said, i don't think you'll see many B5's around (they're not coming to US, right), whereas E55 is sold everywhere. that kinda makes the B5 more special, but also, unattainable. the E55 is a realworld speedking you can buy.

xscream

Ok, if the B5 wont be sold in the US its a pitty... I hope I get to see one around here in the EU, but as long as they aren't sold and shown at the BMW dealers, I think most ppl wont dare to order one.

AMGFan: There isnt really a customization cost since you can only buy the B5 as a new complete car. The baseprise for the Alpina B5 is 62,850£ compared to 61,755£ for the M5.
(I write in £ since I read the article in brittish EVO)

AMGfan

Thanks...The B5 interior looks like a nicer place to be in vs. the current M5.

laj_e55

me like
that car is hot
too bad it is not coming to the US

ViKTORiOUS

Alpina's have been using the same wheels for like 20 years, R&D over there really blows in the wheel department, I'd take Brabus or Kleemann over this junk anyday!

Marcus Frost

xscream,

Alpina is not a "BMW AMG" - for two main reasons.

1.) Alpina is an independent manufacturer, with it's own VIN # series designation, it does not carry a BMW VIN# like an AMG car does.
2.) Alpina's availability compared to AMG cars is not even open for discussion, it's pales in comparison. There are currently over a dozen AMG cars available worldwide in just about any country, Alpina currently has not one car available for sale in the USA.

-m

Erik

ALPINA has keept the main styling with 20 spikes since the late 60 ties so its closer to 40 years. Its an important part of ALPINA history and costumers does not whant it to change, personally I agree. It is not a matter of no R&D.
IMO an ALPINA does not look right without its original wheels.
They have made some newer styling but those I do not like as much.

http://www.alpina-automobile.de/en/rad/evolution.php
Here you can see the development.

And this is the newest, also based on 20 spokes. Not my favorite....

xscream

Marcus: What I meant was that an Alpina is more like a Brabus than a Kleeman tuned Mercedes, I dont argue that Alpina is like AMG, Im sorry if my writing was diffuse. I also wrote that AMG has been a separate company before Mercedes incoprorated it, and that Ive talked to older ppl that still think that AMG is a tuned Mercedes.

Also, the difference between Brabus/Kleeman and Alpina is that BMW acctually owns most of Alpina, and they have cooperate when building the alpinas.
Still not close to beeing like an AMG though.

I know about the availability of Alpina, and I said that I think its a pitty, (and that the only solution for it is to officially sell them at the BMW dealers).

I still think it is an opponent to AMG in terms of comfort/performance mix.
And that it is too bad that a lot of people regard it as a "tuned" car.

BR

Erik

Both your point 1 and 2 are correct.

A few comments based on a post i made in another thread.....
https://mbworld.org/forums/showpost....5&postcount=18

ALPINA is NOT an aftermarked supplier, they are not even a tuning company, they are and has been since 1981 a carproducer like any other car brand. They have their own WIN also as you point out.

But they started up as a tuning company in 1963, with carburator kits to the old BMW 1800 models. It increased the power from 90 Hp to 100 Hp and became a great sucess.
It became such a sucess that BMW noticed them and a long and sucsessfull cooperation started not only street cars but also as a very sucessfull racing team.




This car is one of the first models ALPINA made and put on the marked, engine power varied from 150 Hp in the A2 engine and up to 170-180Hp in the A4 Tii engine. The weight of the car was only 850 Kg so the Hp/weight ratio was quite good back in the early 70 ties..... I have had such a car and it was fun as hell


An even faster car was also prepared for the road based on the famous BMW 3.0 CSL, history has shown that this car is probably the most sucsessfull racing car every to be build ( or at lest one of them). ALPINA made also a version of this car, the ALPINA 3.0 CSL, 250 Hp and performance that put the Ferrari 365 GT clearly behind in every performance category and still at half the price.


Not the best pic I have seen, but this car is the most beutifull in the BMW history....

Here is a pic of the ALPINA CSL in racing leading as it normaly did over its main rivals the Ford Capri and the Porsche.


The well known driver Niki Lauda was one of the team members.
The BMW big problems was the rear tire wear, it had to little downforce so BMW had to develop a special body kit that gave the car a nickname, The Batmobile. It was not allowed to put on the car from the Dealer so all the parts had to be put in the trunk, and the owner put them on after he drive away from the dealer..

The Batmobile 206 Hp. The earlier CSL models had from 180 to 200 Hp.


And here is ALPINA`s CSL race car. I belive they had power in the region of 450 Hp.


ALPINA has over the years been an amazing car producer, and have always been in the lead. This is a fact and not only my personal opinion.
ALPINA is very little known in the US so I guess the general knowledge on ALPINA is somewhat limited.

Take a look on this site if you want some info about the ALPINA cars.
http://www.m5board.com/alpina/default.htm
or the official www.alpina.de

The cooperation BMW / ALPINA has been closer and lasted longer than the cooperation between MB and AMG. I am not sure but I do not think BMW is owning any shares at ALPINA, when I asked they said NO.

I remember when we picked up our first 280 E AMG in 1981, we had a discussion with Hans Werner Aufrecht ( one of the founders of AMG) where he said and I quote.
"The main target for AMG is to become for MB what ALPINA is for BMW."
At that time they still had a long way to go, to reach the level of ALPINA.


230 Hp and build and delivered by AMG as new. Not even close in any performance cathegory to our 1977 model ALPINA B8 it replaced.
or the car we traded the AMG in for the B9 3.5


It took them a long time, but ended up where they are today. Extremly fast, luxurious and comfortable cars. The last years they also have had the edge over ALPINA when it comes to pure power. ALPINA has had several years where they have not gone for the 1. price in power, but are making a nice comback now with the B5 and B7 versions, not to be confused with the brutal I6 Turbo versions also called B7 that was introduced 1978, this became the fastest saloon car of its time, the engine also available in the 6 series Coupe.
300 Hp and 465Nm of torque made this a Porsche Turbo killer, later it was increased to 3,5 ltr 330 Hp and 520 Nm of torque.


This is the 1981 B7S Sedan, only made on 60 ex and one of the most rare and valued ALPINA`s ever. Brutaly fast, still capable of doing real damage to most cars on the road....

To compare ALPINA with BRABUS is wrong IMO. BRABUS has been leading the power race for many years and has to some extend produced totaly overpowered cars. They have had a totaly different approach.
ALPINA has aimed to produce sophisticated and luxcurious cars. Personally I have missed the raw edge that ALPINA had until mid 90 ties.

Actually 1 very important targets for Mr Bovensiepen has been to increase the effeciency of the engines so it actually use less than the stock engines from BMW and at the same time produce more HP.
In 1981 ALPINA made a car that managed a fuel economy of 105 mpg, not to shabby considering it was 25 years ago.

ALPINA was if memory serves me right, the first actively used the electronic as a mean to increase power. ( reprogrammed electronics )
I could be wrong but I belive they did that in the early 80 on the 3,5 ltr B9 engine, stock it delivered 218 Hp and in ALPINA version 245 Hp, not much on paper but the difference in performance was huge. An increase in topspeed of almost 10 mph and reduced 0-125 mph with almost 10 sec.
In addition to this the fuel consumption was reduced by a lot.

Also the B7 introduced in 1978 had a fully electronic computer ignition, a
novelty in automotive technology at that time.....

They produce no more than 500 cars a year and they has stayed on that volum for many years. The could sell alot more but does not want to increase the production volum.

Today and for the last years all ALPINA cars are build at BMW`s production lines together with normal BMW`s.
BMW also use ALPINA`s engine in the X5 4.6. Normaly used in the B10 4,6 5- series.
The only thing done at ALPINA is the development, building of the engines and mounting of special ALPINA parts. Engines are send to BMW where they are assembled. ALPINA is ONLY sold in Europe thrue BMW dealers.

So actually ALPINA is more a direct competitor to AMG than BMW M is.
AMG and ALPINA is about luxery, comfort and power offcourse, while BMW M is more of a sportive, raw and fast car.

I am sure of one thing, even if some of you are real "die hard" AMG fans, if you had the possibility to test drive the ALPINA B5 you would be impressed.

Here is a link to a review of the ALPINA B7 vs the AMG S55
http://www.alpina-automobile.de/down...83008autoZ.pdf

edit: I just had to include some more info, ALPINA`s really get me started you see

Erik

Those times are the tested times for the B7, same engine but mounted in the heavy 7 series. The 5 series based B5 would definatly be faster.

The B7 also recorded 194 mph at NARDO when run against the AMG SL65.

xscream

Thanks for your post Erik! That cleared some of the missinformation I had

I dont know where I read that BMW owns part of Alpina, or maybe its just my memory messing up the fact that they build the Alpinas in the bmw production line.

The way I meant that Brabus and Alpina is alike, is the fact that both deliver cars that (atleast in germay) are sold as separate brands. Compared to Kleeman that only sells parts and tuning.

The history writeup was nice, I should have put some more time for research before I posted my opinions.
I think that Alpina is a fascinating company with awsome cars

Btw.
The times I quoted was from EVOs article about the B5.

BR

Erik

My pleasure

ALPINA has always been and will always be my all time favorite.

I also had to include som more info in my previous post, I cant seem to stop when it comes to info about the ALPINA`s

And concerning the times taken from EVO, as far as I know EVO never do any testing, they just write about cars and then take times other mags have gotten or use the factory numbers. The link in my post give all the performance times.

Belmondo

Really , it was said back in 1981 in your presence and you remember it word for word today?? Pure BS, unless you had that tattooed somewhere....

Erik

Still pissed because you made a total fool of your selves are you ?
Nobody takes you seriously, so do you selves a favour and lay low for a while.....

Marcus Frost

Erik,

Your recollection of Alpina's history is impressive and I do not hold anything against them. I have spent a number of years in Europe throughout my life and have seen numerous Alpinas in person. However, regardless of opinion and history, when talking in today's market my posts hold true. A lot of the points you make are fairly moot, as they don't really change the fact that Alpina is not a part of BMW, even if BMW owns a share of the company (Mercedes also owned share in AMG for a long time), and that Alpina is not sold nor recoginzed worldwide like AMG is.

Alpina is somewhat of a paradox because while it is a manufacturer, an Alpina B5 is a BMW or is at least close enough to an E60 5-series to be considered one. It is NOT a car manufacturer like BMW, Audi, Chevrolet etc. To make cars that can be sold worldwide, such as an AMG, takes an enourmous amount of financial backing, engineering prowess, and international knowhow. These things to me, are just as impressive as Alpina's history because to make and sell a car like the E55 AMG in the USA is not easy, especially with the ever strengthening emissions laws, crash test compliance laws, fierce competition, and the low exchange rate that we have here. There are companies in Japan, such as NISMO that make cars in a similar way Alpina does, but they are never sold outside of Japan, so Alpina is not unique in that sense either. However, if they are not sold here, as wonderful of a car they may be, they simply are not relevant. TVR makes some wicked cars, albeit unreliable ones, that you simply cannot compare with Lotus here in the states because TVR does not exist in the states to compare the Lotus to. Until a car is constructed and refined to a standard that not only complies with US laws but also to the criteria of the US consumer, it's simply not and apples to oranges comparison.

-m

schwarzwagen

belmondo is still a jerk-off, what else is new.

excellent post eric. a nice thoughtful and informative read at the office.

Belmondo

I dont know if you know, but there is life outside forums, get one if you can.
So, you remember what was said word for word back in 1981 in your presence? I can believe that